TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

[Aspiredtofly]

I'm skeptical about what the upgrade time is at each base at flair

[Schlomo Overpeck]

I'm skeptical about what the upgrade time is at each base at flair

Most on property should upgrade to Captain within two years no matter what base. That’s pretty good in my opinion.

[oakmoss1889]

Also OT threshold increasing from 85 to 88 credits. Are we really going backwards??

[kiaszceski]

So captains gets 25% raise while FO get a -5%?
Now we know who negotiated for who.

[rudder]

So captains gets 25% raise while FO get a -5%?
Now we know who negotiated for who.

66.67%. That is what the FO pay should be vs same tenure CA. Possible exception for probation pay (year 1).

At one point in time this ratio was the standard. Seems to have been forgotten the past two decades.

[C-GGGQ]

Big old @#$! you to FOs.

How is being the highest paid FOs in Canada for 2 years and then upgrading, a big F U?

Chrono Jet starts their 737 fo’s at $80k… just sayin.

[Bacunayagua]

Big old @#$! you to FOs.

How is being the highest paid FOs in Canada for 2 years and then upgrading, a big F U?

Chrono Jet starts their 737 fo’s at $80k… just sayin.

Yeah, Morningstar and CargoJet also start higher. Morningstar I believe is the highest in Canada at around 90K for a first year FO. Amazing how much Kool-aid these guys at Flair are drinking......."Highest paid FO's!!!!!!". Yeah ok, bud.

[twa22]

How is being the highest paid FOs in Canada for 2 years and then upgrading, a big F U?

Chrono Jet starts their 737 fo’s at $80k… just sayin.

Yeah, Morningstar and CargoJet also start higher. Morningstar I believe is the highest in Canada at around 90K for a first year FO. Amazing how much Kool-aid these guys at Flair are drinking......."Highest paid FO's!!!!!!". Yeah ok, bud.

Yea, but, those are 757/767s, not quite comparable, and, Cargojet is 76K for yr 1 FO, which given the a/c type is well, rather weak, it's only 2000 more a year vs the proposed Flair TA... see the previous page where safetyfirst123 posted a pays cale of all major 705 operators.

This is by no means a defense on Flair's part. The TA for FOs is weak at best, i'd say even insulting given the massive spread between pay increase for captains vs FOs

I had hopes this new TA would get the ball rolling for everyone else, but much like others have stated, expecting a ULCC to lead the way in pay was rather optimistic

[Bacunayagua]

Yeah thats fair. Either way, I wouldn't be bragging about having the highest first or second year pay when you quickly lag behind everyone else afterwards.

Does anyone have any other information regarding the rest of the TA? There should be much more than just pay.

[Vectorvictor1304]

I don't know about all the FOs here but I know that 71k is not what you end up earning with the extras. (GDO buy outs, OverTime, Work into GDOs, 3% Matching with no probation time) My first year pay ended up at approximately 100k and that wasn't even trying to pick up GDO's, only accepting them when called. I live an awesome lifestyle being home pretty much every night with my family barring training or the odd IROP. If you are here to work you can live quite comfortably, if you want to work the bare minimum then sure you will get paid less. (but still more than all the other airlines)

I am able to book and go on mini vacations through out the year without using my vacation days. We have jump-seat agreements with AC, AirTransat, United and well maybe WJ again in the future, and only pay 70$ to go to travel the world is a great benefit. They are also adding a commuting policy to alleviate stress on those who choose to commute.

Overall I would hope most people here who are FOs want to further themselves and will be looking at an upgrade in the next 0.5-3 years max. Dont loose sight of this, that means your salary will more than double and you will be getting bigger jet PIC time which you could take with you anywhere in the world. (I look at this as an insurance policy if things went tits up around here)

Let's not forget the expansion plans, things are going to be happening quickly around here and 3 years will come and go in no time and we will be right back at the bargaining table again. The ways things are going we will most likely be able to ask for more and receive it then.

In the end people, vote the way you honestly feel about this contract it is a democracy. Question things and don't just believe what you "hear", follow it up with the people who negotiated the contract and with the contract it self. Get the Facts, hearsay is very dangerous.

Personally I agree that the FOs Salary should have gone up more, definitely at year 2, but the opportunity to upgrade and make 150K in less than a years time, far out weighs this in my opinion.

[Aspiredtofly]

Overall, AC has to improve alot alot alot alot and alot..

[oakmoss1889]

I don't know about all the FOs here but I know that 71k is not what you end up earning with the extras. (GDO buy outs, OverTime, Work into GDOs, 3% Matching with no probation time) My first year pay ended up at approximately 100k and that wasn't even trying to pick up GDO's, only accepting them when called. I live an awesome lifestyle being home pretty much every night with my family barring training or the odd IROP. If you are here to work you can live quite comfortably, if you want to work the bare minimum then sure you will get paid less. (but still more than all the other airlines)

So new "Grey" days = less chance at GDOS. new 88 hr threshold for OT = less OT . new MMG 85 hrs (w/18 days worked) = potential to be scheduled more days = less chance of GDOs

I am able to book and go on mini vacations through out the year without using my vacation days. We have jump-seat agreements with AC, AirTransat, United and well maybe WJ again in the future, and only pay 70$ to go to travel the world is a great benefit. They are also adding a commuting policy to alleviate stress on those who choose to commute.

You get this at almost any other airline. Most airlines have much better travel benefits.

Overall I would hope most people here who are FOs want to further themselves and will be looking at an upgrade in the next 0.5-3 years max. Dont loose sight of this, that means your salary will more than double and you will be getting bigger jet PIC time which you could take with you anywhere in the world. (I look at this as an insurance policy if things went tits up around here)

Its not just about personal gain. If Flair cant attract pilots, and loses even more (currently cancelling flights due to staff shortages) its going to be a problem for everyone down the road.

Personally I agree that the FOs Salary should have gone up more, definitely at year 2, but the opportunity to upgrade and make 150K in less than a years time, far out weighs this in my opinion.

Youre forgetting all the pilots theyve hired at ~1000 hrs. They wont be upgrading that quickly...they may look to go elsewhere in the meantime.

[twa22]

So what are the timeframes like? What's the deadline to vote? If yes vote, is the contract effective immediately? If no vote, how long will the negotiations continue for?

[fish4life]

Flair first year FO rate (2023) $72.09 x 1.03 (company match) = 74.19
WJ first year (2022 rate can’t find a 2023 one) $64.92 x 1.2 (company match) = $77.90

[co-joe]

Big old @#$! you to FOs.

How is being the highest paid FOs in Canada for 2 years and then upgrading, a big F U?

Chrono Jet starts their 737 fo’s at $80k… just sayin.

Who? Oh the cargo charter company that only flies in Quebec? What's the rest of their pay scale like? PCC says they only get 8 GDOs a month. When do they open a yyz, yow, ykf, yyc, yeg, yvr, and yxx bases again?

[Dirty24.7]

Flair first year FO rate (2023) $72.09 x 1.03 (company match) = 74.19
WJ first year (2022 rate can’t find a 2023 one) $64.92 x 1.2 (company match) = $77.90

Can we factor in 8 years on reserve and an even longer captain upgrade at WJ?

[PilotZum]

One thing a lot of people forget to take in consideration…

At Westjet and AC as an FO you keep years of service, and whenever the upgrade comes you will go to the equivalent pay.

Imagine now the poor sucker joins flair with around 1000hr and does 4 years on the right seat. He will have to start right from year 1 again. That’s not a problem only with flair, most airlines in Canada have this issue and nobody pays attention when comparing pay in between them.

[Arnie Pye]

I don't know about all the FOs here but I know that 71k is not what you end up earning with the extras. (GDO buy outs, OverTime, Work into GDOs, 3% Matching with no probation time) My first year pay ended up at approximately 100k and that wasn't even trying to pick up GDO's, only accepting them when called. I live an awesome lifestyle being home pretty much every night with my family barring training or the odd IROP. If you are here to work you can live quite comfortably, if you want to work the bare minimum then sure you will get paid less. (but still more than all the other airlines)

You won't be doing any overtime if the blocking window maxes out at 92 hours. 1: you can only do 8 hours of OT in a given month, 2. It won't be available because everyone will be working 92 hours 3. You won't have enough CARS rest to do it 4. Your wife won't let you because you are working too much.

I am able to book and go on mini vacations through out the year without using my vacation days. We have jump-seat agreements with AC, AirTransat, United and well maybe WJ again in the future, and only pay 70$ to go to travel the world is a great benefit. They are also adding a commuting policy to alleviate stress on those who choose to commute.

I don't know if you're aware, but every airline offers this and 99% of them offer WAY more airlines.

Overall I would hope most people here who are FOs want to further themselves and will be looking at an upgrade in the next 0.5-3 years max. Dont loose sight of this, that means your salary will more than double and you will be getting bigger jet PIC time which you could take with you anywhere in the world. (I look at this as an insurance policy if things went tits up around here)

They went tits up all over the world and jet PIC didn't make a difference. That's why we have high time jet drivers currently at Flair. They got laid off everywhere else.

The ways things are going we will most likely be able to ask for more and receive it then.

Promise?

Personally I agree that the FOs Salary should have gone up more, definitely at year 2, but the opportunity to upgrade and make 150K in less than a years time, far out weighs this in my opinion.

What if I already upgraded - should I work an extra day so that you will get an upgrade in 3 years? If I work extra days, the company requires less pilots and that WILL slow down your upgrade.

[Airbrake]

I did some math for a 10 year comparison in wage and company match for WJ and Flair.

I assumed a Flair FO upgrades after 3 full years and that the WJ FO upgrades after 7 full years.

This is the total compensation with 77.5 hour block for WJ + 20% WSP and 85 hour block and 3% company match.

After 10 years the Flair pilot will make $1426296.69
After 10 years the WJ pilot will make $1438401.24

After those 10 years, the WJ pilot will have been blocked or flown 900 hours less.

No OT, no block growth, no stock options (profit share or OPA) or retention bonuses either. Just salary in normal block and company matches.

I’m not trying to state one is better over the other, just did 1 comparison. I could do AC or others and it would show something different. I just know the WJ program well.

Shorter upgrade at Flair than 3 years and longer at WJ then 7 years make the benefit lean towards Flair. And then whatever combination you can creat after that will make changes.

[dumpsterfire]

Some serious dumpster fire trash in this "deal"

Anyone who votes "yes" on the promise of "expansion" please read the link

Fool me once, shame on you, fool the industry for the 1000th time, shame on ALL of us...

https://plugin24.tripod.com/wood.html

[Anonymouse]

All I can say from what I've seen is I'll be disappointed in the Flair pilot group if the vote is yes. Know your worth, you're better than this.

[Attila]

This TA is insulting to all of us! One reason US pilots get paid a lot more is that they wouldn't put up with this crap. It's crunch time for many Canadian pilots to grow a spine and stand up to these companies who think they can pay us sub-standard wages for our skillsets. Keeping in mind what we've gone through to get here, the instability of the career, layoffs.. Just as our living costs are going through the roof. Don't try and put lipstick on a pig. It's time for change!

[slottedslat]

All I can say from what I've seen is I'll be disappointed in the Flair pilot group if the vote is yes. Know your worth, you're better than this.

Agreed. I firmly believe it's important to stay positive and appreciate what you have HOWEVER, if there's an opportunity for change for better then we MUST speak.

[Transition9er2]

AC pilots voted down their proposed MOA a few months ago. Shortly after, management was going around to new hire PIT classes saying there was an MOA 2.0 ready to go but didn’t bother sending it out because the 80% NO vote was stronger than they expected and felt the new offer wouldn’t get support either.

There’s usually a second, better offer.

[Gameon]

This is a step in the right direction. What did you expect? 50% wage increases? Canadian pilots are shockingly divided, misinformed and generally ignorant. The US far more advanced in pretty much every way - its not worth comparing. When is the last time a company dished out a 23-25% pay raise up here? When you add in the retention program there is quite a bit of money on the table. The upgrades for FOs are fast and furious and some very new and relatively inexperienced pilots will get a quick upgrade on a new fleet of 737s. And by the way, its effectively a new company gaining traction in the market and operating on a low cost model. But sadly its all about the toxicity in Canada and its what we do. Instead of pushing each other up ( like in the US ) we pull each other down. Its the main reason the wages and conditions have been so suppressed for so long. Flame away and vote it down at your peril...