TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Discuss topics related to Flair Airlines.

Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
thepoors
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:27 am

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by thepoors »

Anyone that votes yes to this steaming pile has no respect for themselves or the profession.

I'm so tired of hearing "but it's better than what we had" "this is the best we're going to get" "we're a ulcc we can't expect more"

1) What you had was absolute garbage to begin with. And on the FO side it's debatable whether it's an improvement at all.
2) It's a classic management bait and switch that will look even worse when the competition renegotiate and you're stuck with this.
3) You are wasting an amazing opportunity to actually push the whole industry to a new standard and bring Canadian pilots into the realm of fair compensation - somewhere we haven't been in decades.

And for christssake stop calling it the best starting FO pay in Canada. Because that's also a lie: Cargojet pays 86k and Morningstar 89k to start. Be better.
---------- ADS -----------
 
swimming
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:28 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by swimming »

Current CJ year 1 FO is $75,770
---------- ADS -----------
 
thepoors
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:27 am

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by thepoors »

swimming wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:51 pm Current CJ year 1 FO is $75,770
My mistake, that's still more than "Canada's highest starting FO pay" of 73k
---------- ADS -----------
 
Bacunayagua
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Bacunayagua »

This guy co-joe is really taking "highest paid FO" to the bank. Did you bother to take a look at any other company's pay for more than the first year? Congratulations, you're marginally better than the passenger airlines (because you're still behind the cargo guys) for the first 12 months. You then fall right out of that "Highest paid FO" podium very quickly. Transat for example, pulls slightly ahead on year 2 and leaves you in the dust year 3. Thats not to speak of all the other benefits like pension where the pilot can pay up to 5% of their salary and the company will add another 8% to it for a total of 13%. Not even the best in the industry as WJ and AC have better plans, but this guy is bragging about 3% matching lol.

But what am I saying. None of that matters since you're upgrading to Cpt in no time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Vanguard
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 7:19 am

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Vanguard »

VOTE NO CANADIAN PILOTS. WAKE UP!!

A25503CC-F558-4E69-974E-9EFCD2DB8901.jpeg
A25503CC-F558-4E69-974E-9EFCD2DB8901.jpeg (784.97 KiB) Viewed 2240 times
---------- ADS -----------
 
tryingtohide
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:31 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by tryingtohide »

When is the vote?
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4246
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by co-joe »

Bacunayagua wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:55 am This guy co-joe is really taking "highest paid FO" to the bank. Did you bother to take a look at any other company's pay for more than the first year? Congratulations, you're marginally better than the passenger airlines (because you're still behind the cargo guys) for the first 12 months. You then fall right out of that "Highest paid FO" podium very quickly. Transat for example, pulls slightly ahead on year 2 and leaves you in the dust year 3. Thats not to speak of all the other benefits like pension where the pilot can pay up to 5% of their salary and the company will add another 8% to it for a total of 13%. Not even the best in the industry as WJ and AC have better plans, but this guy is bragging about 3% matching lol.

But what am I saying. None of that matters since you're upgrading to Cpt in no time.
Transat is 1.78 Billion in debt, yes lets follow their lead. And yes that's right, anything beyond year 2 FO pay at Flair is a moot point because you move to year 1 Captain pay at that point.

Of course WS and AC have better benefits, they have proven track records of profitability for decades. This is a first step, not the solution to all the world's problems.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Bacunayagua
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Bacunayagua »

co-joe wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:25 pm
Bacunayagua wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:55 am This guy co-joe is really taking "highest paid FO" to the bank. Did you bother to take a look at any other company's pay for more than the first year? Congratulations, you're marginally better than the passenger airlines (because you're still behind the cargo guys) for the first 12 months. You then fall right out of that "Highest paid FO" podium very quickly. Transat for example, pulls slightly ahead on year 2 and leaves you in the dust year 3. Thats not to speak of all the other benefits like pension where the pilot can pay up to 5% of their salary and the company will add another 8% to it for a total of 13%. Not even the best in the industry as WJ and AC have better plans, but this guy is bragging about 3% matching lol.

But what am I saying. None of that matters since you're upgrading to Cpt in no time.
Transat is 1.78 Billion in debt, yes lets follow their lead. And yes that's right, anything beyond year 2 FO pay at Flair is a moot point because you move to year 1 Captain pay at that point.

Of course WS and AC have better benefits, they have proven track records of profitability for decades. This is a first step, not the solution to all the world's problems.
Hahahhaha, this guy is just comical. Yeah I guess Flair isn't in debt at all with all those new planes and $39.99 fares. I guess its good for you mental health that Flair is a private company and doesn't have to disclose its debts, and that 777 partners is in a whole other country.

Yeah I guess it must be a moot point since everyone at Flair will be a Cpt and there won't be any FO's. I'm sure all those 2000-2500 hour hires that came from king airs will be upgrading in 12 months.
---------- ADS -----------
 
strengthinumbers
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:25 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by strengthinumbers »

Thought this was really well done, and an example of how/why the pilot groups stand together down south.

Hoping the link works.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cl4WtqOA ... MyMTA2M2Y=
---------- ADS -----------
 
Bacunayagua
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Bacunayagua »

It's a moot point. They honestly believe this crap of "new company", "ULCC can't pay that much", " First contract in the right direction". You could show them what Avelo, a new ULCC in the states pays their pilots and they''l change the conversation to the US being a different market altogether. Do yourselves, the industry and everyone else coming up behind you a favour and turn this shit down.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Gameon
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:21 am

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Gameon »

Stop comparing to the US. It makes ZERO difference to an arbitrator. Is it interesting and something to strive towards? of course. Poor Canada is a laggard in just about every business and at every level of pay and compensation. Doctors, Lawyers, Same. Welcome to socialist Canada.

It IS a step in the right direction and only a 3 year deal. As for FOs, they have very few senior FOs and that means more than 3 years. Its virtually a brand new company post covid. The time to command is about the quickest in the business right now. So you're a new FO with 2000-3000K hrs and get to fly a brand new 737. Make roughly 75K and likely get to 100K with some extra work. Upgrade in a short amount of time. Live in your base and home pretty much every night with the vast majority of flying during the day. Whats the problem again? Haters gonna hate.
Be happy.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Transition9er2
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Transition9er2 »

I look at that video and I can’t help but see A LOT of similarities with the US carriers us when it comes to being overworked and constantly getting called on my days off when I should be resting and spending time with my family.

This bloody country.

We fly the same planes, we fly to the same destinations, we share their pain and struggles as pilots and yet some refuse to try and make it better.

Lame
---------- ADS -----------
 
PilotZum
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:08 am

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by PilotZum »

Hey guys, Watch out!

This is our opportunity to do a major overhaul in this industry. We have basically every contract coming up for negotiations in the next year or two. Let's demand better! We can be at the US level. Don't accept to fly for peanuts in this insanely expensive country.

Value your profession.

VOTE NO!
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by DanWEC »

The AC guys put the wheels in motion by binning that MOA. The last poster is right, every airline is due for renewal in the next few years. Follow the AC example, and soon enough we'll all be enjoying better conditions instead of being embarrassed by them. We're in higher and higher demand every year, due in no small part by historical low wages driving less intake to the field. This hole has been dug for years and it's pretty deep. Now they're stuck with an impossible labour shortage. The exploitation is done. We all have to do our part now to turn the ship.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Airbrake
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:50 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Airbrake »

Hopefully we will hear Canadian CEO’s saying the same.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-06/

WASHINGTON, Dec 6 (Reuters) - United Airlines (UAL.O) Chief Executive Scott Kirby said a tentative contract agreement between rival Delta Air Lines (DAL.N) and its pilots union would set an industry pattern.

"It's a rich contract but I think the really good news is it means we'll all get deals done essentially on the same terms and can move forward," Kirby told Reuters on the sidelines of an event in Washington late Monday. Delta struck a tentative deal Friday to give pilots a 34% cumulative pay increase in a new four-year contract.

Kirby says the Delta agreement will push pilot wages up across carriers and be passed onto consumers in the form of higher airplane ticket prices.

"The biggest news for an investor perspective is cost convergence in the industry means that what is different now is all the low cost carriers are going to have come up to these much higher pay rates," Kirby said. "This is going to wind up like oil prices -- it's going to be a pass through."

Kirby said demand is still strong for airplane tickets, which he noted are cheaper today than over the last 15 years.

"Prices are still in historical terms 40-50% lower in real terms," Kirby said. "They are going to go up but it's still going to be the best value of your travel," he said, comparing flights to hikes in hotels, rental cars and theme park tickets.

Delta's contract offer also includes a lump-sum one-time payment, reduced health insurance premiums, and improvements in holiday pay, vacation, company contributions to 401(k) and work rules.

Its union estimates the proposed deal represents more than $7.2 billion of cumulative value increases over the next four years.

American Airlines (AAL.O) and United have promised "industry-leading" contracts to their pilots.

Last month, American pilots rejected a proposed 19% pay hike over two years that would have cost the Texas-based carrier about $2 billion. Similarly, United pilots turned down an offer that included more than 14.5% cumulative wage increases and enhanced overtime and training pay.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Vanguard
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 7:19 am

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Vanguard »

:oops:
Gameon wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:42 pm Stop comparing to the US. It makes ZERO difference to an arbitrator. Is it interesting and something to strive towards? of course. Poor Canada is a laggard in just about every business and at every level of pay and compensation. Doctors, Lawyers, Same. Welcome to socialist Canada.

It IS a step in the right direction and only a 3 year deal. As for FOs, they have very few senior FOs and that means more than 3 years. Its virtually a brand new company post covid. The time to command is about the quickest in the business right now. So you're a new FO with 2000-3000K hrs and get to fly a brand new 737. Make roughly 75K and likely get to 100K with some extra work. Upgrade in a short amount of time. Live in your base and home pretty much every night with the vast majority of flying during the day. Whats the problem again? Haters gonna hate.
Be happy.

It’s this idiot mentality that people have in Canada that has held this industry back. STOP it. Ask for better — better yet you have this one chance to fight for it.

It’s people like the above that have been bottom barrel of the industry taking anything they can get to get into a flying job. It’s time to call out this bullshit. Pilots in Canada made 75k long ago and the housing market was affordable. 75k as a pilot with the carrot of quick upgrade. You know where to put that carrot.

150k to start as a 737 skipper is disgraceful still. No YOS?? You’re kidding me. Look at AC payscales long ago. It’s this settling mentality that holds us all back.

You won’t get US wages but you aren’t worth less than 50% of the value of a US pilot. Wake the fu%# up.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Attachments
F7CE611A-0793-4B06-AF34-5D05A04E5264.jpeg
F7CE611A-0793-4B06-AF34-5D05A04E5264.jpeg (358.39 KiB) Viewed 1390 times
throwawaycorporate
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:32 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by throwawaycorporate »

Every negotiated contract directly affects every pilot in the industry. I feel this contract misses the mark and will create overworked pilots and hostility between CA and FO at the least. To say "it doesn't matter because you'll be captain in 12 months" is not valid as growth will eventually stop. I think it would be wise to vote NO and push for more from the company:
  • FO wages increase same % as CA
  • All wages indexed to the CPI (the 2.5% listed in the pay scales is essentially a ~4% pay cut per year meaning at the end of the 3 years each pilot will be making ~12% less in real terms if inflation remains inflated)
  • Me too clause similar to Delta's that ensures F50 pilots get 1% more than any contract ratified by Swoop/Lynx/Canada Jetlines/other competitors?
  • Remain at 80MMG with a lower cap on scheduling block. (Delta negotiated 34% + improvements in work/life balance). Not everyone wants to work 10% more each month.
In Ontario, education workers walked off the job for 2 days despite a "back to work" mandate and the threat of hefty fines. The precedent has been set again that "back to work" mandates are against labour's charter rights. Many US and international pilot groups recently have shown intent to strike. And it's been effective.

Some raises in the US as a %: Delta 34%, Republic 54-94%, Alaska 23%, >100% at Mesa

American Airlines pilots (already industry leading pay) turned down 19%, Air Canada pilots voted overwhelmingly NO to the LOA. King Air pilots with a fresh ATPL are making 140K + to work 14/14 schedules. It is clear where compensation is trending in this industry. If Spirit can pay their FO's $148USD and their Captains $277USD, then all of our low cost carriers can afford to pay $148CAD and $277CAD and still get a 30% discount on global market rate. Canadian pilots have the ability to capture these transformative gains as well, we just need to stop making excuses as to why it won't happen here, and focus on making it happen here.

I can't think of a single pilot who won't benefit from a NO.
---------- ADS -----------
 
safetyfirst123
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:47 pm

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by safetyfirst123 »

Let's look back at the US industry in the last couple of decades. Yes, they were ahead of Canadians, but not nearly by as much. Regional pilots in the US were actually behind the standard set by Jazz and Porter in the late 2000's. What really hindered our ability in Canada to improve was when AC pilots were forced into a crappy and long contract, which held every other pilot group back in Canada. In the last ten years or so is when the US pilot groups were able to make their strong gains.

I also see many of the senior pilots at airlines other than AC very weary of big gains. They've seen multiple bankruptcies, and I can understand why they are nervous. There is also a large gap in pay between junior and senior pilots, with pay scales that take a really long time to achieve meaningful earnings. A senior captain making well into the $200,000's at a charter or LCC knows their next job might be right seat making $75,000 if they're lucky.

Now is our chance to make progress like the US pilots were able to in the last ten years, but we need to stop the excuses!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tdicommuter
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:39 am

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by Tdicommuter »

Rather than assume people who are pointing out short comings in the TA are all haters, why not digest for a moment what is being offered as advice from your brethren.

The sick days went down... But used the government required ones in the tally to say there are more? What happens if those government required ones go away?

85 hours a month is not where you want to aim for. Working more is not making more. That is the rationale air Canada sold it's guys and part of the reason we are where we are. A raise is simply that, getting paid more to do exactly what you already are.

The F/O ratio will bite you later when you go to fix it. If you look at the costing now versus three years from now when you have staffed and actually may have 5 year F/Os the raise becomes much more expensive which means you will give up extra bargaining elsewhere. If the company tells you don't worry about the F/ O scale because we want you to upgrade so you won't be there... Perfect time then to raise the F/O scale now as it is meaningless anyway. If no-one works through that pay scale then it doesn't cost you anything to raise it to a proper ratio.

Pension contribution should be higher... Period. Look up compounding interest. If you upgrade after two years, and are young...time is your best friend for retirement.

Don't let the company tell you that an upgrade is a raise. It's super exciting for you guys and I think the opportunity is fantastic to take advantage of, however it is a different position... Not a raise. It also cannot be everyone's future. Some people will not pass the upgrade, some people will get hired with low time and need to spend many years to get an upgrade, once all 50 find are in Canada, it will be impossible to upgrade everyone in two years without indefinite growth, or people dying, and or leaving. It's selfish to think your opportunity will be everyone else's.

Canadian pilots have been bad at helping each other. I'm hopeful things are turning a corner. I don't call Flair a disrupter, or think any I'll will towards people there. If they paid you guys and gals what you are worth I hope flair lasts forever. Just remember though that pilots wages on average cost about 7 percent of operating costs in the States. I know Canadian pilots come in much less. If you think your raise is bad for business you are wrong. I want to see Lynx, Porter, Flair all start killing it and as they say rising tides raise all ships.

Best of luck peeps
---------- ADS -----------
 
nowind
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:57 am

Re: TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

Post by nowind »

ULCC is just a brand strategy. Its still the same product, same market, same plane and SAME JOB! This TA will affect the whole industry so please vote wisely. Why would you accept anything less than WJ? Fixing the FO scale and getting YOS are bare minimums. If you match WJ, swoop payscale will most likely disapear and rouge will stay on mainline rules, otherwise who knows how its gonna play. You have more power than you think, we need to stick together and rise higher.

Please vote No, hold the line!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Flair Airlines”