Is it really all that bad?

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KiloEcho
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by KiloEcho »

I feel I should chime in, back in the late 90s early 00s I was in college on track to become AME specialized in avionics and after noticing how brutal the industry was back then with massive layoffs every now and then. I opted to drop out and find myself another career and went towards IT and networking. Back then the internet was still somewhat in its infancy and I very quickly climbed the ladder. Enough to say that I broke through the 100k$/yr barrier 10 years ago..

I am still very passionate about aviation, I have some regrets about not finishing college and getting my AME licence.. It would have been a totally different carreer, different from being behind a computer all day .. I wish, I could've done both honestly. I love aviation so much but money and stability feels really nice too.

That's my take...
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

KiloEcho wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:47 pm I feel I should chime in, back in the late 90s early 00s I was in college on track to become AME specialized in avionics and after noticing how brutal the industry was back then with massive layoffs every now and then. I opted to drop out and find myself another career and went towards IT and networking. Back then the internet was still somewhat in its infancy and I very quickly climbed the ladder. Enough to say that I broke through the 100k$/yr barrier 10 years ago..

I am still very passionate about aviation, I have some regrets about not finishing college and getting my AME licence.. It would have been a totally different carreer, different from being behind a computer all day .. I wish, I could've done both honestly. I love aviation so much but money and stability feels really nice too.

That's my take...
Money and stability, the two rarely exist in the same job, in aviation, it’s mostly one or the other. I’m speaking as an M1/M2 AME with decades of experience (I also sign for our E and S stuff regularly on our heavy maintenance).
I’m at a good point now, but it’s a very long hard grind to get to a point of experience, training, signing authority, and overall value, where you can name your terms.
There’s lots of bouncing from one place to the next, months of the year gone from home and family. Missed births, weddings, graduations, and loved ones deaths are all part of that.
It’s a brutal amount of sacrifice, and I know there’s that in all walks of life/other careers, but this industry sets the expectation bar so high that’s it’s become ridiculously unreasonable (especially for the general liability, remuneration and schedules offered).
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-42
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by -42 »

Honestly for the next wave of employees I shudder to think what awaits them. 100k a year well that all sounds good but in Canada after the taxman bends you over the take home is well let’s say quite pathetic on the hourly breakdown. Then add all the other fees, taxes etc. and your measly pay in this country is poverty line,6.99 for a head of lettuce anyone? 500K for four walls two of which you share? Yeah you can RRSP and all that but how much? Not enough in my opinion and eventually the taxman will come calling with claw backs when you retire with “too much”. This country unfortunately is at this point an extraction for me. Get as much out of it and work as little as humanly possible kind of like what anyone should do if they choose being an AME as a career. Get the endorsement, take your sweet time doing things, change up employers when they piss you off. Live your life without financial handcuffs.
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

I'm not an AME, but I have many friends who are. Before I was an airline pilot I also worked in an office that had project deadlines. I've learned a number of things that are exactly what faces your profession:

1. They treat you like an expense, not a value.
2. They give you unrealistic deadlines (volume vs capacity).
3. No matter how much effort you put in, someone will always ask more of you.
4. If it takes you 4 days to do a job, tell them it'll take you 5. Under-promise and over-deliver is better perceived than over-promise and under-deliver.
5. Never be a "company man". Do your job and do it well, but that's it. The company will get rid of you in a second if they find no more value in your service. "It's not personal... it's business".

For me, the worst job(s) I ever had was working nights, whether I was working security at a microbiology lab (paying my way through school) or flying medevacs. I will never do that again and that's why I will never join an airline that makes me fly red eyes. I just can't do it anymore. It may take a number of years to find that place you're willing to settle for, because nowhere is perfect. I settled... and it's okay. Not great, but not horrible. I'm content.

Good luck.

P.S. As a side note, I make it a point to thank AMEs who work so hard to fix my plane(s).
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Pat Richard
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Pat Richard »

-42 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:58 am Honestly for the next wave of employees I shudder to think what awaits them. 100k a year well that all sounds good but in Canada after the taxman bends you over the take home is well let’s say quite pathetic on the hourly breakdown. Then add all the other fees, taxes etc. and your measly pay in this country is poverty line,6.99 for a head of lettuce anyone? 500K for four walls two of which you share? Yeah you can RRSP and all that but how much? Not enough in my opinion and eventually the taxman will come calling with claw backs when you retire with “too much”. This country unfortunately is at this point an extraction for me. Get as much out of it and work as little as humanly possible kind of like what anyone should do if they choose being an AME as a career. Get the endorsement, take your sweet time doing things, change up employers when they piss you off. Live your life without financial handcuffs.
I agree completely with the above posts, but -42's resonated particularly due to the highlighted bit.

Im practicing that idelogy religiously now. After multiple decades in this it came naturally but the whole covid experience gave pause for thought.

Im simply a different person now and things will not be handled as before the rona. Judging by whats going on right in many fields Im not the only one this happened to.

I just dont care enough to worry about the shit I used to or be coerced/threatened by percieved higher ups, especially in aviation.

Makes for a calmer mindset when threats dont matter.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:20 am I'm not an AME, but I have many friends who are. Before I was an airline pilot I also worked in an office that had project deadlines. I've learned a number of things that are exactly what faces your profession:

1. They treat you like an expense, not a value.

•correct

2. They give you unrealistic deadlines (volume vs capacity).

•correct

3. No matter how much effort you put in, someone will always ask more of you.

•correct

4. If it takes you 4 days to do a job, tell them it'll take you 5.

• 6 days depending on complexity and currency of the task, %150 of what you expect is a safe and reasonable margin

Under-promise and over-deliver is better perceived than over-promise and under-deliver.

•correct, most of these people are not technicians let alone ame’s, therefore don’t understand what the job entails

5. Never be a "company man". Do your job and do it well, but that's it. The company will get rid of you in a second if they find no more value in your service. "It's not personal... it's business".

•correct, boot licking sycophants do find their place, usually in management, usually because they’re not the best technicians.


For me, the worst job(s) I ever had was working nights, whether I was working security at a microbiology lab (paying my way through school) or flying medevacs.

•medevac is as bad or worse for ame’s, dealing with the butcher scene isn’t something I miss

I will never do that again and that's why I will never join an airline that makes me fly red eyes. I just can't do it anymore. It may take a number of years to find that place you're willing to settle for, because nowhere is perfect. I settled... and it's okay. Not great, but not horrible. I'm content.

Good luck.

P.S. As a side note, I make it a point to thank AMEs who work so hard to fix my plane(s).

•thanks for the appreciation, we do appreciate gratitude, and for the most part we do put in %150 into what we do

See above, thanks for the insight from an appreciative pilot
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

Pat Richard wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:21 pm
-42 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:58 am Honestly for the next wave of employees I shudder to think what awaits them. 100k a year well that all sounds good but in Canada after the taxman bends you over the take home is well let’s say quite pathetic on the hourly breakdown. Then add all the other fees, taxes etc. and your measly pay in this country is poverty line,6.99 for a head of lettuce anyone? 500K for four walls two of which you share? Yeah you can RRSP and all that but how much? Not enough in my opinion and eventually the taxman will come calling with claw backs when you retire with “too much”. This country unfortunately is at this point an extraction for me. Get as much out of it and work as little as humanly possible kind of like what anyone should do if they choose being an AME as a career. Get the endorsement, take your sweet time doing things, change up employers when they piss you off. Live your life without financial handcuffs.
I agree completely with the above posts, but -42's resonated particularly due to the highlighted bit.

Im practicing that idelogy religiously now. After multiple decades in this it came naturally but the whole covid experience gave pause for thought.

Im simply a different person now and things will not be handled as before the rona. Judging by whats going on right in many fields Im not the only one this happened to.

I just dont care enough to worry about the shit I used to or be coerced/threatened by percieved higher ups, especially in aviation.

Makes for a calmer mindset when threats dont matter.

That high handed management mentality is slowly dying off. You guys in the fixed wing and business jet world have it way worse for that crap than us in rotary. I’ve been states side for a long time now but still active in Canada. I can say and have said ad nauseam that I don’t need or want Canadian aviation anymore, but for the right people I’m there and will give them everything I have to offer, for the right conditions and right price.
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Found
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Found »

Thew T wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:57 am My advice to you as a student is that most of the negative comments that you see in online forums can't be vetted so you should take them with a grain of salt as these types of forums tend to cater to malcontents.

For example, some people will gripe about being underpaid no matter how much they are making as they see their worth as far more than it likely actually is. This is true with any profession.

But what is the real reason that the person isn't making what they feel that they should? What is their attitude like on the job? Can they function as a team member or do they bitch and complain to anyone that will listen? Have they bettered themselves at all during their career e.g. taken any business or management courses? Do they do the bare minimum in their job and that's all? Again those types are in every profession, success lies in not being one.

As for "the industry is in the toilet" comments you will hear this from all types of professionals and tradespeople, its as old as time began. You should always be forward looking with your career that will lead you to the best companies and highest earning potential. Get the experience and skills that you know are in demand and keep an eye on new trends that you can gain expertise in - that's how you become invaluable. You will likely need to change employers multiple times in your career to get to the salary and position that you ultimately want, again that is the same with every profession.

You should not feel discouraged if this is something that you are passionate about and really want to do. Positive attitudes and eager applicants that have the skills will always be in demand and if you are doing well in school and motivated then you are well on your way.
Well written and good advice, the only thing I would add is money isn’t everything. If you’re working a job you like in a place you like don’t leave for more money to work somewhere you might not like.
I remember a few guys left real nice jobs to go work Air Canada in Toronto complaining they wish they never left their small town job.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

Found wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:35 am
Thew T wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:57 am
Well written and good advice, the only thing I would add is money isn’t everything.
Money is something however, and should be commensurate with the measured liability, schedule (lack thereof), experience, skill, endorsements. The wages in Canada have been stagnant since the late 90s. In the rotary world, maybe mid 2000s, it’s not as desirable
As it once was.
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-42
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by -42 »

It shouldn’t be up to me to “ train myself”. Your eluding to training bonds and self paid “upgrades”. Never did it and would never do it. Being naturally mechanically gifted and a critical thinker is what I bring to the table and that’s worth compensation. What the company decides to do with that is on them. Use it or don’t I really don’t care as it’s better to work in the shadows than to be the “hero” as it at the end will get you nowhere. Your only as good as your last good day as the first crappy one you have you’ll be chucked under the bus. Hero/team player whatever you want to call it be damned. At the end of the day you are on your own and only should look out for your best interests. Most recent trends? What is this person even talking about? You mean after work, unpaid? Laughable. Typical aerosexual attitude.
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

-42 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:34 pm It shouldn’t be up to me to “ train myself”. Your eluding to training bonds and self paid “upgrades”. Never did it and would never do it. Being naturally mechanically gifted and a critical thinker is what I bring to the table and that’s worth compensation. What the company decides to do with that is on them. Use it or don’t I really don’t care as it’s better to work in the shadows than to be the “hero” as it at the end will get you nowhere. Your only as good as your last good day as the first crappy one you have you’ll be chucked under the bus. Hero/team player whatever you want to call it be damned. At the end of the day you are on your own and only should look out for your best interests. Most recent trends? What is this person even talking about? You mean after work, unpaid? Laughable. Typical aerosexual attitude.
I don’t think this person is a pilot or AME based on their posts. I love the be positive posts from people who have zero experience in this trade.
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Pat Richard
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Pat Richard »

Bug_Stomper_01 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:06 pm
-42 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 12:34 pm It shouldn’t be up to me to “ train myself”. Your eluding to training bonds and self paid “upgrades”. Never did it and would never do it. Being naturally mechanically gifted and a critical thinker is what I bring to the table and that’s worth compensation. What the company decides to do with that is on them. Use it or don’t I really don’t care as it’s better to work in the shadows than to be the “hero” as it at the end will get you nowhere. Your only as good as your last good day as the first crappy one you have you’ll be chucked under the bus. Hero/team player whatever you want to call it be damned. At the end of the day you are on your own and only should look out for your best interests. Most recent trends? What is this person even talking about? You mean after work, unpaid? Laughable. Typical aerosexual attitude.
I don’t think this person is a pilot or AME based on their posts. I love the be positive posts from people who have zero experience in this trade.
:smt023 to both of you, and I hope the newbs take notice of what -42 has written/I highlighted. The sooner more of you as a group take on what he is laying down the better off you'll all be, at least personally.

Looking back over my decades doings this I can vouch that heroes are the zeroes that companies love to have and lean on. Dont be that guy that crew chiefs/mngmnt run to every time theyre stuck and need an engine installed. the guy with same seniority and pay tuning seats or taping cargo pits is outsmarting the hero simply by using thier brain waay less, experiencing less stress, not being pressured for OT, and making the same takehome as the hero.

There's no real progression of any sort for most after attaining the license so its smarter in the long run to put yourself first. Almost all the heroes Ive seen all end up embittered or resentful after time served. Most have nothing else in thier lives besides aviation
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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

“MoNeY isN'T EvErYtHiNg”. If I had a nickel every-time some sky captain said that to me I’d be a billionaire.
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SeptRepair
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by SeptRepair »

Pat Richard wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:49 am Looking back over my decades doings this I can vouch that heroes are the zeroes that companies love to have and lean on. Dont be that guy that crew chiefs/mngmnt run to every time theyre stuck and need an engine installed. the guy with same seniority and pay tuning seats or taping cargo pits is outsmarting the hero simply by using thier brain waay less, experiencing less stress, not being pressured for OT, and making the same takehome as the hero.
This sentiment I have come across a couple times as of late. Must be us older guys who have all these years of experience to pull off of to come to the same conclusion. Have a good friend who shared his experience in Afghanistan from a few years ago. All guys working there were on the same daily rate. 1000.00$/day. All endorsed and experienced. Putting a bunch of guys together and watching the alpha males chest beat and puff out apparently was comical. My buddy is intelligent enough and wise enough to see the dynamics get played out. He recalled one fellow who quietly took all the unglorified tasks, and did them well. He could have elbowed his way into engine changes or head changes etc, but choose not to . Kept out of the limelight. Made the same money as everyone yet did 1/10 the work. Did all the jobs the alpha's couldn't be bothered to do. Smartest one of them all.
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chowda
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Re: Is it really all that bad?

Post by chowda »

I remember having the same epiphany about 4 years in when I was working at large mro.

It was the kind of place that was full of the types that were aviation alphas or wannabe aviation alphas. I specify the "aviation" part because outside of work they were mostly alpha dorks. I remember a few buying/obtaining their own training manuals and reading them during braks so their dedication would be noticed. They were always fighting for crewchief love which to them was engine work mostly. Seats, lavs, pit taping, interiors in general, were insulting, lol, so it was cutthroat, lol

Nobody(very few and they were all older) saw that the "lesser" jobs as better value in both less stress and mental exertion. Almost everybody wanted to be a hero and the goto guy and they would bitch incessantly during breaks when they were"overlooked".

I remember for a good period of time I was the pit tape guy. I had a couple of nice cushions to lay down on, ipod/ear buds, usually no company and generally no attention from mngmnt. I was slightly higher wagewise than most of the heroes, and paperwork was basic.

I've seen that sort of scenario many times over the years and I think that the extent that so many crave "aviation love" from thier leads/mngmnt and percieved "superiority" over other coworkers is a direct reflection of what sort of people are drawn to this industry.

Personally I've seen confusion and then resent if you present yourself as not giving a shit about their work concerns or not working to get accepted into their sphere or clique. Sitting at another non areosexual crews table during lunch and breaks, being the only guy refusing ever to do ot, etc.

The punishment after they've whined to the lead about your "attitude" is usually "shit" jobs, lol. Best part was when I quit it was suddenly with no 2 week bs. Almost nobody ever quit that place due it being a singular large employer for that area.. I did have to come back the next day because my roll around was held until the "inspection" of it was signed off.

So I'd like to offer up that treat this "career" with a healthy respect of work/pay ratios, understand that busting your ass/bending rule in this business only leads to that expectation from mngmnt and you will not be able to extracate yourself from it in the future.

Lower mngmnt expectations of you and work smarter not harder. If you think hard work will push you up the ladder you're wrong. People that get put into desks are generally the ones that the company will not notice being gone from the floor. Why would you promote a top mech away from production?

That was way longer than I wanted but its a rabbit hole of a topic.

Cheers
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