Hiring after DECEMBER

[kiaszceski]

Strategy to make the most leave, and put the rest on LOA while flow them, once the staffing because unsustainable from the company point of view, and revert back to point-to-point flying, hence eating the same plate as Flair.

Congrats to all that will flow very soon instead of in 5 years!

[Maskless1]

Strategy to make the most leave, and put the rest on LOA while flow them, once the staffing because unsustainable from the company point of view, and revert back to point-to-point flying, hence eating the same plate as Flair.

Congrats to all that will flow very soon instead of in 5 years!

I wouldn’t be surprised to see it slowly fade out. But I think it’s more likely we’ll see 15 tails stick around in yyc to connect into their “global hub”. Probably much less of an expense to the company to fully staff 15, with better compensation. If they really want to fill all of these new airplanes they’re getting, they have to keep the feeder network open at least out west. I’m all for flowing faster but they need to fix the pay and progression anyways. 15 years to captain is too long if the pay is this low.

[kiaszceski]

Encore will fold into Pasco. It is the most plausible to me.
The people staying at the new Encore will flow as fast as Pasco/Encore can train Captain, with their seniority.
Pasco people will have a CPA with Westjet like AC is doing with Jazz. BOTL. This might take 2-3 years if they're able to fill the GSs and keep they new pilots. They might bump the pay once it folds into Pasco, to 65k/100k.
Pure speculation, but they are smart to screw us.

[Apestogetherstrong]

We need $10,000 on each side just to afford to get by. We’ll see what next year brings but I’m not optimistic with the new flair FO numbers. In the US the race to the top is on, meanwhile here we’re still racing to the bottom. It’s a competition to see who can pay the least. WJ is definitely making money. Our flights are full and the ticket prices are high. Sure they’re probably losing money on a hand full of high competition routes but it doesn’t turn an overall loss. I suspect “no profit” until both CBAs are complete.

$10,000???????????? you must be kidding. We need at least $25000 each side for FO’s and Captains to even think about staying back. Aint nobody goin to stay for no $10,000. That ship has long sailed my friend. Why would someone stay for 10k when they can be making much much more at AT, AC, Cargojet, Porter, Flair and even Jazz DEC.

[averageatbest]

We need $10,000 on each side just to afford to get by. We’ll see what next year brings but I’m not optimistic with the new flair FO numbers. In the US the race to the top is on, meanwhile here we’re still racing to the bottom. It’s a competition to see who can pay the least. WJ is definitely making money. Our flights are full and the ticket prices are high. Sure they’re probably losing money on a hand full of high competition routes but it doesn’t turn an overall loss. I suspect “no profit” until both CBAs are complete.

$10,000???????????? you must be kidding. We need at least $25000 each side for FO’s and Captains to even think about staying back. Aint nobody goin to stay for no $10,000. That ship has long sailed my friend. Why would someone stay for 10k when they can be making much much more at AT, AC, Cargojet, Porter, Flair and even Jazz DEC.

The old contract at Flair would give an FO at Encore a $24,000/year increase in pay right away. The new contract is closer to 30.

[Maskless1]

We need $10,000 on each side just to afford to get by. We’ll see what next year brings but I’m not optimistic with the new flair FO numbers. In the US the race to the top is on, meanwhile here we’re still racing to the bottom. It’s a competition to see who can pay the least. WJ is definitely making money. Our flights are full and the ticket prices are high. Sure they’re probably losing money on a hand full of high competition routes but it doesn’t turn an overall loss. I suspect “no profit” until both CBAs are complete.

$10,000???????????? you must be kidding. We need at least $25000 each side for FO’s and Captains to even think about staying back. Aint nobody goin to stay for no $10,000. That ship has long sailed my friend. Why would someone stay for 10k when they can be making much much more at AT, AC, Cargojet, Porter, Flair and even Jazz DEC.

I was suggesting 10k just to LIVE. Lol. Right now the pay is unlivable. 10k would only keep up with inflation. We need way more to stay here. There’s no reason we can’t match porters new pay scale and work to make improvements on that.

[Maskless1]

We need $10,000 on each side just to afford to get by. We’ll see what next year brings but I’m not optimistic with the new flair FO numbers. In the US the race to the top is on, meanwhile here we’re still racing to the bottom. It’s a competition to see who can pay the least. WJ is definitely making money. Our flights are full and the ticket prices are high. Sure they’re probably losing money on a hand full of high competition routes but it doesn’t turn an overall loss. I suspect “no profit” until both CBAs are complete.

$10,000???????????? you must be kidding. We need at least $25000 each side for FO’s and Captains to even think about staying back. Aint nobody goin to stay for no $10,000. That ship has long sailed my friend. Why would someone stay for 10k when they can be making much much more at AT, AC, Cargojet, Porter, Flair and even Jazz DEC.

I was suggesting 10k just to LIVE. Lol. Right now the pay is unlivable. 10k would only keep up with inflation. We need way more to stay here. There’s no reason we can’t match porters new pay scale and work to make improvements on that.

[Yogi21]

Encore gluck gluck 5000

Highlights of the Deal are as followed:

Captains and First Officers will receive lump sum payments of $850 a month if they are Active for one day in the pay period.
Captains and First Officers both move up 2 Pay Steps on January 1, 2023 (i.e., if you are a Captain on a year 3 pay step, you will now be on a year 5 Captain pay step).
New Captains and First Officers will start at year 3 of their respective pay steps.
New Captain Pay Steps added for year 7 and 8 at $106.56 and $109.49 respectively.
Training Pilots will receive a lump sum payment of $500 a month.
Line Indoctrination instructors will receive $120 per training day, previously was $90.
ACP will receive $200 per training day, previously was $155.
Training Pilot expenses account, amount available is $600 per month (this does not roll over), claims must comply with the corporate expense policy.
ATPL course (i.e., Aerocourse) reimbursed for First Officers with receipts, they will also receive a $500 one-time payment when completed.

This MOA would be effective from January 1,2023 until December 31, 2023, or until the date the next Collective Agreement takes effect, whichever is later.

[belgianmoon]

Thank you.
What is year 3 pay like.

[GetAGripen]

Thank you.
What is year 3 pay like.

$51.48 for FO $89.36 for CA from my briefing package.

Thanks Yogi.

[throwawaycorporate]

So effective first year rates?

FO: $56,532
$46,332 ($51.48 * 900) + $10,200 ($850 * 12)

CA: $90,624
$80,424 (89.36 * 900) + $10,200 ($850 * 12)

roughly a 30% pay jump? What's the quality of life like at the moment?

[Aspiredtofly]

Thank you.
What is year 3 pay like.

$51.48 for FO $89.36 for CA from my briefing package.

Thanks Yogi.

Could you post a detailed payscale here for calculating purposes

[GetAGripen]

Thank you.
What is year 3 pay like.

$51.48 for FO $89.36 for CA from my briefing package.

Thanks Yogi.

Could you post a detailed payscale here for calculating purposes

[twa22]

Can someone explain this lump sump payment of 850 a month? How does that work exactly and for how long?

[JBI]

So effective first year rates?

FO: $56,532
$46,332 ($51.48 * 900) + $10,200 ($850 * 12)

CA: $90,624
$80,424 (89.36 * 900) + $10,200 ($850 * 12)

roughly a 30% pay jump? What's the quality of life like at the moment?

Also to note, 2023 rates are $1 - $1.50 higher for FOs and $1.50 to $2 more for Captains. So the base number will be another $1000 or so higher.

As I understand it, if you are active 1 day in a month, you get $850 added to a pay cheque. It lasts until the new contract is negotiated. Current contract expires Dec 31, 2023 but sometimes a new contract won’t be finalized until a few months later. If that’s the case, the $850 payment continues.

[twa22]

So effective first year rates?

FO: $56,532
$46,332 ($51.48 * 900) + $10,200 ($850 * 12)

CA: $90,624
$80,424 (89.36 * 900) + $10,200 ($850 * 12)

roughly a 30% pay jump? What's the quality of life like at the moment?

Also to note, 2023 rates are $1 - $1.50 higher for FOs and $1.50 to $2 more for Captains. So the base number will be another $1000 or so higher.

As I understand it, if you are active 1 day in a month, you get $850 added to a pay cheque. It lasts until the new contract is negotiated. Current contract expires Dec 31, 2023 but sometimes a new contract won’t be finalized until a few months later. If that’s the case, the $850 payment continues.

Thanks for the explanation. Adding to what you mentioned regarding extra 1 to 2 bucks for FO and CA in 2023, the wages seem OK. I won't say these are good wages, BUT, considering what they were beforehand, it's much better... still a long way to improve but at least it seems we're starting to move in the right direction everywhere

[Admiral Benson]

Does anyone know why the negotiating team elected to go this route of an extra lump sum payment?

why not simply raise the hourly rate?

I guess it achieves the same goal but from the outside it just seems like a backwards, overcomplicated way of doing things

just wondering if theres more going on here?

[averageatbest]

Does anyone know why the negotiating team elected to go this route of an extra lump sum payment?

why not simply raise the hourly rate?

I guess it achieves the same goal but from the outside it just seems like a backwards, overcomplicated way of doing things

just wondering if theres more going on here?

The company was unwilling to attach the money to the hourly rate as they thought it would set a precedent for the upcoming collective agreement negotiations. The thing is, the money is still being given to the pilots and the company cannot pretend that it is not an increase in salary.

[Transition9er2]

[quote="Admiral Benson" post_id=1230059 time=1671637722 user_id=51793]
Does anyone know why the negotiating team elected to go this route of an extra lump sum payment?

why not simply raise the hourly rate?

I guess it achieves the same goal but from the outside it just seems like a backwards, overcomplicated way of doing things

just wondering if theres more going on here?
[/quote]

My understanding from buddies who are over there make it sound like this MOA is specifically to address a temporary cost of living increase and retention bonus until the contract is completely reviewed later in 2023.

Cost of living is the bump in pay and the $850/mnth is the retention bonus you receive (as long as you’re active 1 day per month).

From the outside looking in, this seems to be a pretty fair deal for Encore. My understanding is the pilot group gives up nothing and it gives them a decent bump in pay until they can negotiate their new contract.

This deal puts Encore starting wages at the same level as AC starting pay… and they give up nothing as I understand it. Not a bad deal.

I don’t have a stake in this fight, I’m just observing from the grand stands and interested to hear more feedback from the folks who this directly impacts.

[averageatbest]

Does anyone know why the negotiating team elected to go this route of an extra lump sum payment?

why not simply raise the hourly rate?

I guess it achieves the same goal but from the outside it just seems like a backwards, overcomplicated way of doing things

just wondering if theres more going on here?

My understanding from buddies who are over there make it sound like this MOA is specifically to address a temporary cost of living increase and retention bonus until the contract is completely reviewed later in 2023.

Cost of living is the bump in pay and the $850/mnth is the retention bonus you receive (as long as you’re active 1 day per month).

From the outside looking in, this seems to be a pretty fair deal for Encore. My understanding is the pilot group gives up nothing and it gives them a decent bump in pay until they can negotiate their new contract.

This deal puts Encore starting wages at the same level as AC starting pay… and they give up nothing as I understand it. Not a bad deal.

I don’t have a stake in this fight, I’m just observing from the grand stands and interested to hear more feedback from the folks who this directly impacts.

The opinion on the line seems split. It'll take a week or two for the pilots to review the offer and split the rumours from the facts and come to their conclusion as to whether the offer is acceptable or not.

[skyhighh]

How can this be a split opinion. It’s an MOA, not a negotiation, the pilot group would get a raise without being asked anything in return. How is that not a 100% yes is beyond me. If it’s enough, people won’t leave and that means everyone is happy. If it’s not enough, take the raise and quit like everyone else when your time comes… . If people keep leaving, the company will have to come back with MOA 2 or give more during the negotiations. It’s much easier to ask for more cash when you start from a higher pay scale.
Yes it’s not nearly enough, especially compared to south of the border… but it’s an MOA and comes with zero conditions. Voting NO to this would be utterly ridiculous. I really don’t understand what people are afraid of if voting yes.

[averageatbest]

How can this be a split opinion. It’s an MOA, not a negotiation, the pilot group would get a raise without being asked anything in return. How is that not a 100% yes is beyond me. If it’s enough, people won’t leave and that means everyone is happy. If it’s not enough, take the raise and quit like everyone else when your time comes… . If people keep leaving, the company will have to come back with MOA 2 or give more during the negotiations. It’s much easier to ask for more cash when you start from a higher pay scale.
Yes it’s not nearly enough, especially compared to south of the border… but it’s an MOA and comes with zero conditions. Voting NO to this would be utterly ridiculous. I really don’t understand what people are afraid of if voting yes.

Simple solution: Don't make decisions based on emotion.

[olivierw]

How can this be a split opinion. It’s an MOA, not a negotiation, the pilot group would get a raise without being asked anything in return. How is that not a 100% yes is beyond me. If it’s enough, people won’t leave and that means everyone is happy. If it’s not enough, take the raise and quit like everyone else when your time comes… . If people keep leaving, the company will have to come back with MOA 2 or give more during the negotiations. It’s much easier to ask for more cash when you start from a higher pay scale.
Yes it’s not nearly enough, especially compared to south of the border… but it’s an MOA and comes with zero conditions. Voting NO to this would be utterly ridiculous. I really don’t understand what people are afraid of if voting yes.

• I'm afraid that this will incentivize a lot of great pilots to join our training department (the biggest gains in this MOA target the trainers). Maybe so much so that we could finally start hiring 250hr pilots because of improved training programs and training capacity.

• I'm also afraid this will up the wages just enough to make Encore slightly more attractive than the other regionals.

Combine the two, and that gives the company more trainers and more trainees. Meaning they solve their pilot attraction problem without having to solve their pilot retention problem. Keeping in mind that Encore's model is to hire, train, and lose pilots, I don't think they're too concerned by losing an average of 10 pilots/month to attrition not including flow like they currently are, so long as they can keep hiring.

[skyhighh]

How can this be a split opinion. It’s an MOA, not a negotiation, the pilot group would get a raise without being asked anything in return. How is that not a 100% yes is beyond me. If it’s enough, people won’t leave and that means everyone is happy. If it’s not enough, take the raise and quit like everyone else when your time comes… . If people keep leaving, the company will have to come back with MOA 2 or give more during the negotiations. It’s much easier to ask for more cash when you start from a higher pay scale.
Yes it’s not nearly enough, especially compared to south of the border… but it’s an MOA and comes with zero conditions. Voting NO to this would be utterly ridiculous. I really don’t understand what people are afraid of if voting yes.

• I'm afraid that this will incentivize a lot of great pilots to join our training department (the biggest gains in this MOA target the trainers). Maybe so much so that we could finally start hiring 250hr pilots because of improved training programs and training capacity.

• I'm also afraid this will up the wages just enough to make Encore slightly more attractive than the other regionals.

Combine the two, and that gives the company more trainers and more trainees. Meaning they solve their pilot attraction problem without having to solve their pilot retention problem. Keeping in mind that Encore's model is to hire, train, and lose pilots, I don't think they're too concerned by losing an average of 10 pilots/month to attrition not including flow like they currently are, so long as they can keep hiring.

Afraid that a lot of great pilots join the training department? What great pilots? From where? Are you talking about all the captains that are leaving right left and center? You think a little pay bump will keep them at Encore? That would be ludicrous.

Up the wages just enough to make Encore attractive? How? Everyone offer more than Encore. As was mentioned before you can make more with better work condition on a King Air. This will not solve any crewing problem or pilot shortage. This will NOT solve pilot retention and hire, train, lose is not sustainable. Pilots are being hired with less and less experience and the captains or experienced FOs are leaving extremely fast.
Vote YES, and if it’s not enough (and it won’t be), wait for the company to come back with MOA #2 or start the negotiations on a strong foot and an already higher wage. You’re just saying yes to a pay bump, thinking that this minor increase could potentially save the company and take away the pilot shortage negotiation advantage is plain ignorance. My 2 cents.

[GetAGripen]

Calls for end of Jan class are going out.