TA Passed

[Vanguard]

You can still go ahead and keep telling yourself you have AC/WJ standard or now apparently you're better than Sunwing.... You are trully brutal. Hats off to you.

[Tdicommuter]

Just a quick question about Swoop pay rates that you are quoting... Any idea how or why a sub par conditions happened at swoop?

Listen you can spin yarn all you want but you took sick days away, your F/O scale is not enough, and you increased how much people need to work. It's selfish for people to have voted yes because time is something that matters that isn't in a contract. The guy hired 2 years from now will not get the benefit of those hired today and effectively the pilot group said who cares about those guys. It's selfish and the reason we lag while other pilot groups excel.

I really hoped people thought collectively rather than individually but time will tell how this works out. Best of luck out there people Merry Christmas and fly safe.

Swoop subpar conditions are clearly my fault, obviously. Just, ask the internet, and they'll tell you. Probably the first 4 years flat pay scale at AC too.

Moving on from veiled innuendo, the sick days were not reduced.

Under the old contract, there were 12 days per year including days used to take care of sick family members. Under the new contract due to changes in the CLC we split personal days out and awarded 15 days total, of which 13 are paid. An increase of 1 day paid leave and 2 unpaid leave per year.

A pilot hired 2 years from now will be subject to this contract for all of 6 months after completion of training before it expires and at the current time, still be paid one of the best starting FO pay in the industry. Besides we'll all be hiring cadets by then if the current pilot shortage continues.

Well I'm not sure I'll give you specifically all the credit, would I give you an assist on the gamesheet....yeah I would. No WestJet pilot would work for those rates and conditions... Suddenly a group of people show up off the street and boom swoop is born. It's history now I'm moved on.

Funny you mention cadet pilots.. looks like you slipped the master plan. That'll be fun to negotiate a raise for F/O's wages when suddenly we don't need experience because we will fly with 200 hour guys.

Morality is interesting because it can't be measured or quantified. I hope that you actually try to make other people's lives better, and not just have your own interests are heart. I have an easier time believing that you are well intentioned, and mis-informed, because the alternative is you are greedy and willing to sell out your pilot brothers for your own interests.

Best of luck out there Flair people. Stay safe fly smart. Enjoy your family these holidays.

[deadpoetssociety]

[cdnavater]

Just a quick question about Swoop pay rates that you are quoting... Any idea how or why a sub par conditions happened at swoop?

Listen you can spin yarn all you want but you took sick days away, your F/O scale is not enough, and you increased how much people need to work. It's selfish for people to have voted yes because time is something that matters that isn't in a contract. The guy hired 2 years from now will not get the benefit of those hired today and effectively the pilot group said who cares about those guys. It's selfish and the reason we lag while other pilot groups excel.

I really hoped people thought collectively rather than individually but time will tell how this works out. Best of luck out there people Merry Christmas and fly safe.

Swoop subpar conditions are clearly my fault, obviously. Just, ask the internet, and they'll tell you. Probably the first 4 years flat pay scale at AC too.

Moving on from veiled innuendo, the sick days were not reduced.

Under the old contract, there were 12 days per year including days used to take care of sick family members. Under the new contract due to changes in the CLC we split personal days out and awarded 15 days total, of which 13 are paid. An increase of 1 day paid leave and 2 unpaid leave per year.

A pilot hired 2 years from now will be subject to this contract for all of 6 months after completion of training before it expires and at the current time, still be paid one of the best starting FO pay in the industry. Besides we'll all be hiring cadets by then if the current pilot shortage continues.

Well I'm not sure I'll give you specifically all the credit, would I give you an assist on the gamesheet....yeah I would. No WestJet pilot would work for those rates and conditions... Suddenly a group of people show up off the street and boom swoop is born. It's history now I'm moved on.

Funny you mention cadet pilots.. looks like you slipped the master plan. That'll be fun to negotiate a raise for F/O's wages when suddenly we don't need experience because we will fly with 200 hour guys.

Morality is interesting because it can't be measured or quantified. I hope that you actually try to make other people's lives better, and not just have your own interests are heart. I have an easier time believing that you are well intentioned, and mis-informed, because the alternative is you are greedy and willing to sell out your pilot brothers for your own interests.

Best of luck out there Flair people. Stay safe fly smart. Enjoy your family these holidays.

Make no mistake, Tbaylx is nothing but a corporate shill who is regurgitating the sales pitch bullet points who knows full well that in 2.5 years when the rapid growth stops the FOs will be stuck with the contract while they negotiate a new one, hitorically taking over a year with “back pay” being encompassed in the new deal. They are also hoping for some type of supply chain of new pilots, ie; cadets, to prevent having to up the ante.
By then, the cadets will be arriving, who are willing to sell their souls for a fancy jet first job, this alone will keep the numbers on the 60% yes side for any new contract.
Question, is the retention bonus for all pilots including any hired after the new contract?
If not, why is it being included in the conversation about Captains being comparable with the other airlines?

[Anonymouse]

I'm disappointed in a few things today. First and foremost I'm disappointed in some of the unnecessary, rude, personal attacks made on this and other threads. There are certain things that should be criticized, but be professional about it. After all, this is supposed to be a forum of Canadian aviation professionals. If someone wants to live in a van and is happy doing so, good for them.

I'm also very disappointed in the Flair pilot group. This is undoubtedly a step backwards. From what I know a lot of people went to flair for the qol benefits, say good bye to that now. Home every night means nothing if you spend those nights exhausted and falling asleep as soon as you get home. I've done a home every night, busy hours job, I'd rather have layovers and actually be awake when I'm home.

I'm disappointed at the complete lack of respect and regard for first officers, not only from management but from the majority of the captain and rapid upgrade group. Things will change, hiring and upgrades will slow down, and plenty of first officers will pay for your selfishness. But that's not your problem, I suppose.

I'm disappointed that this industry in Canada is so divided, within each company's pilot group in within the pilot group as a whole.

I'm disappointed that people have bought into the idea that they're not worth that much. Have some sense of pride in your profession. Have some respect for the work we've all put in to get to this point.

This contract is a disaster. It's a step forward in captain pay and a step backwards in every other regard. Stop falling for sales pitches. A good contract doesn't need a sales pitch, it speaks for itself. In the coming months we'll quickly see how many people regret the yes votes. I can guarantee not a single person in management will regret this contract, that alone should speak to how poorly balanced it was, at a time when the scales should be weighted in the pilots favor. A wasted opportunity for flair pilots that will have a negative impact on all of us as Canadian pilots.

[Canadaflyer46]

I'm disappointed in a few things today. First and foremost I'm disappointed in some of the unnecessary, rude, personal attacks made on this and other threads. There are certain things that should be criticized, but be professional about it. After all, this is supposed to be a forum of Canadian aviation professionals. If someone wants to live in a van and is happy doing so, good for them.

I'm also very disappointed in the Flair pilot group. This is undoubtedly a step backwards. From what I know a lot of people went to flair for the qol benefits, say good bye to that now. Home every night means nothing if you spend those nights exhausted and falling asleep as soon as you get home. I've done a home every night, busy hours job, I'd rather have layovers and actually be awake when I'm home.

I'm disappointed at the complete lack of respect and regard for first officers, not only from management but from the majority of the captain and rapid upgrade group. Things will change, hiring and upgrades will slow down, and plenty of first officers will pay for your selfishness. But that's not your problem, I suppose.

I'm disappointed that this industry in Canada is so divided, within each company's pilot group in within the pilot group as a whole.

I'm disappointed that people have bought into the idea that they're not worth that much. Have some sense of pride in your profession. Have some respect for the work we've all put in to get to this point.

This contract is a disaster. It's a step forward in captain pay and a step backwards in every other regard. Stop falling for sales pitches. A good contract doesn't need a sales pitch, it speaks for itself. In the coming months we'll quickly see how many people regret the yes votes. I can guarantee not a single person in management will regret this contract, that alone should speak to how poorly balanced it was, at a time when the scales should be weighted in the pilots favor. A wasted opportunity for flair pilots that will have a negative impact on all of us as Canadian pilots.

Excellent post.
The Flair pilots who voted yes to this TA are a disgrace to the profession, but there is certainly no need for personal attacks on here. I'm still dumbfounded that this TA was voted in with such abysmally low FO pay (considering the negotiating climate/raises for the captain side), and not even demanding YOS which is an INDUSTRY STANDARD. Anyone who voted this in, way to shit on future FOs. "Don't worry about the FO pay, the upgrades will be quick". Gee where have we heard that before.

[flying4dollars]

I'm disappointed in a few things today. First and foremost I'm disappointed in some of the unnecessary, rude, personal attacks made on this and other threads. There are certain things that should be criticized, but be professional about it. After all, this is supposed to be a forum of Canadian aviation professionals. If someone wants to live in a van and is happy doing so, good for them.

I'm also very disappointed in the Flair pilot group. This is undoubtedly a step backwards. From what I know a lot of people went to flair for the qol benefits, say good bye to that now. Home every night means nothing if you spend those nights exhausted and falling asleep as soon as you get home. I've done a home every night, busy hours job, I'd rather have layovers and actually be awake when I'm home.

I'm disappointed at the complete lack of respect and regard for first officers, not only from management but from the majority of the captain and rapid upgrade group. Things will change, hiring and upgrades will slow down, and plenty of first officers will pay for your selfishness. But that's not your problem, I suppose.

I'm disappointed that this industry in Canada is so divided, within each company's pilot group in within the pilot group as a whole.

I'm disappointed that people have bought into the idea that they're not worth that much. Have some sense of pride in your profession. Have some respect for the work we've all put in to get to this point.

This contract is a disaster. It's a step forward in captain pay and a step backwards in every other regard. Stop falling for sales pitches. A good contract doesn't need a sales pitch, it speaks for itself. In the coming months we'll quickly see how many people regret the yes votes. I can guarantee not a single person in management will regret this contract, that alone should speak to how poorly balanced it was, at a time when the scales should be weighted in the pilots favor. A wasted opportunity for flair pilots that will have a negative impact on all of us as Canadian pilots.

Well said.

[rudder]

I'm disappointed in a few things today. First and foremost I'm disappointed in some of the unnecessary, rude, personal attacks made on this and other threads. There are certain things that should be criticized, but be professional about it. After all, this is supposed to be a forum of Canadian aviation professionals. If someone wants to live in a van and is happy doing so, good for them.

I'm also very disappointed in the Flair pilot group. This is undoubtedly a step backwards. From what I know a lot of people went to flair for the qol benefits, say good bye to that now. Home every night means nothing if you spend those nights exhausted and falling asleep as soon as you get home. I've done a home every night, busy hours job, I'd rather have layovers and actually be awake when I'm home.

I'm disappointed at the complete lack of respect and regard for first officers, not only from management but from the majority of the captain and rapid upgrade group. Things will change, hiring and upgrades will slow down, and plenty of first officers will pay for your selfishness. But that's not your problem, I suppose.

I'm disappointed that this industry in Canada is so divided, within each company's pilot group in within the pilot group as a whole.

I'm disappointed that people have bought into the idea that they're not worth that much. Have some sense of pride in your profession. Have some respect for the work we've all put in to get to this point.

This contract is a disaster. It's a step forward in captain pay and a step backwards in every other regard. Stop falling for sales pitches. A good contract doesn't need a sales pitch, it speaks for itself. In the coming months we'll quickly see how many people regret the yes votes. I can guarantee not a single person in management will regret this contract, that alone should speak to how poorly balanced it was, at a time when the scales should be weighted in the pilots favor. A wasted opportunity for flair pilots that will have a negative impact on all of us as Canadian pilots.

If you are not already a union rep, you should run for a position.

[Soyer]

Let’s take a step back.

First of all it’s not our job to be the leaders or the flag bearers of the pilot industry. That is something that occurs across the industry and across companies. Air Canada and WJ have been around for a long time, have mature contracts and, even then, those pilots certainly haven’t driven wages to the so called US levels that people seem to believe we deserve. Flair has been around, essentially for 3 years, coming out of Covid where we had one aircraft operating. We are a new company and this is our first real contract. We e achieved a 35% pay increase along with some great benefits.

FO wages - we are on par with the industry. Why would we use negotiating capital to negotiate anything beyond the first few years? Our next contract will be negotiated by that point. Captains wages were very low and we concentrated on that.

Hours - virtually no difference between 80 and 85. For most of us it will mean almost nothing. Any of us with even mediocre seniority will still get 15-18 days off or more. The most junior guy might - MIGHT - work an extra day to make up that difference. This crap that some have spouted here about fatigue is ridiculous. The sked here is excellent. But non of you would understand that since your on the outside looking in making uninformed comments.

Most of the commentators here work for the competition and I doubt your veracity and authenticity. You have an agenda. A large number (apestrong etc) are newbies with almost no experience and history in the business and their arguments have little substance and are nothing more than rants.

We have moved the spectrum of pay and conditions significantly and the pay is smack in the middle of pay within Canada. Flairs situation is different then WJ etc. DEC and quick upgrades mean that a new hire now makes more than Vanguard and other senior FOs at WJ. Way more than we would make as FOs at AC. Why would we go to those companies? The profile of the pilot body is different because we are young and that is an advantage for us as pilots. We negotiated a contract based on that profile, based on our history and based on the current situation within the industry. The bullshit comments about us not doing enough is exactly that - bullshit. This pilot group did a great job. As I said, it’s not our responsibility to the lead then Industry but to pull us up to we’re we should be considering everything above. We will have more contracts with which to continue the improvements.

I love the comments that we should have voted it down! From those same young guns who have no clue how any of this works. “Vote it down and they will have to give you more - the more that they are hiding…..” blah blah blah. After that it would require a strike vote. Could we have forced arbitration? Maybe. But that’s a gamble. The company came up with 35% for captains, slight adjustment to FOs and a significantly thicker document with standard ALPA content. You think an arbitration would not have taken that into account?? Again a group of people who have no clue and now choose to pontificate about how we failed pilots across Canada. It’s laughable.

The negotiating team did a great job. It’s a first step. The others can now take this and move their contracts upwards from which we can then work to do the same. I guarantee that the WJ MEC is using this contract as a jumping board.

[Vanguard]

Let’s take a step back.

First of all it’s not our job to be the leaders or the flag bearers of the pilot industry. That is something that occurs across the industry and across companies. Air Canada and WJ have been around for a long time, have mature contracts and, even then, those pilots certainly haven’t driven wages to the so called US levels that people seem to believe we deserve. Flair has been around, essentially for 3 years, coming out of Covid where we had one aircraft operating. We are a new company and this is our first real contract. We e achieved a 35% pay increase along with some great benefits.

FO wages - we are on par with the industry. Why would we use negotiating capital to negotiate anything beyond the first few years? Our next contract will be negotiated by that point. Captains wages were very low and we concentrated on that.

Hours - virtually no difference between 80 and 85. For most of us it will mean almost nothing. Any of us with even mediocre seniority will still get 15-18 days off or more. The most junior guy might - MIGHT - work an extra day to make up that difference. This crap that some have spouted here about fatigue is ridiculous. The sked here is excellent. But non of you would understand that since your on the outside looking in making uninformed comments.

Most of the commentators here work for the competition and I doubt your veracity and authenticity. You have an agenda. A large number (apestrong etc) are newbies with almost no experience and history in the business and their arguments have little substance and are nothing more than rants.

We have moved the spectrum of pay and conditions significantly and the pay is smack in the middle of pay within Canada. Flairs situation is different then WJ etc. DEC and quick upgrades mean that a new hire now makes more than Vanguard and other senior FOs at WJ. Way more than we would make as FOs at AC. Why would we go to those companies? The profile of the pilot body is different because we are young and that is an advantage for us as pilots. We negotiated a contract based on that profile, based on our history and based on the current situation within the industry. The bullshit comments about us not doing enough is exactly that - bullshit. This pilot group did a great job. As I said, it’s not our responsibility to the lead then Industry but to pull us up to we’re we should be considering everything above. We will have more contracts with which to continue the improvements.

I love the comments that we should have voted it down! From those same young guns who have no clue how any of this works. “Vote it down and they will have to give you more - the more that they are hiding…..” blah blah blah. After that it would require a strike vote. Could we have forced arbitration? Maybe. But that’s a gamble. The company came up with 35% for captains, slight adjustment to FOs and a significantly thicker document with standard ALPA content. You think an arbitration would not have taken that into account?? Again a group of people who have no clue and now choose to pontificate about how we failed pilots across Canada. It’s laughable.

The negotiating team did a great job. It’s a first step. The others can now take this and move their contracts upwards from which we can then work to do the same. I guarantee that the WJ MEC is using this contract as a jumping board.

Its actually people like you and your mentality that hold it all back. I know people will consider me to be attacking but he said "PROFILE"...I would love to listen to yours. I am going to assume DEC, lots of other experience, found your job in Canada again. Accepted a low pay 737 gig and now happy you got your 35% raise, screwed over the FOs and accepted a shit QOL contract? Tell me a different story as I am quite interested.

As a Captain at Flair there is obviously no incentive for you to not accept this deal when you've made shit $ since your inception. Lets be clearly honest here - none of you actually care about the industry, its more about what fills the pocket book now. People like you have set the bar so low for our industry we continue to kill our young.

[daedalusx]

LMAO at people shitting on Flair for the conditions of this industry when you had the Jazz B scale, Swoop’s entire existence, SWG CBA 4, AC flat pay, etc. I can’t remember seeing any of the Jazzies A scaler show any kindness to their 42k/yr FO and they’re all here shitting on this TA but when it was their time at bat to make a stand they sold off the next generation and now they’re all upset because they don’t get to freeride on someone else negos.

I’m not happy about it either and I don’t work for Flair but then again
1- It was negotiated and supported by the ALPA MEC
2- They need experienced drivers more than they need FOs. The 2000-3000hrs FOs will probably end up at AC by the end of 2023.
3- They will be able to rake the bottom of the barrel just like Sunwing did and put 250hrs wonders on the right seat of a 737 who will be more than happy to sit down and shut up for a couple of years as it is a better fate than 42k a year to fly 6 legs per day on a dash.

You want to truly make permanent change to Canadian aviation landscape ? Have all unions come together and lobby the fed to raise the min experience to fly a 705 a/c at 1500hrs + full ATPL and close the fucking border to foreign workers including fast track immigration.
If you’re not willing to do either thing, there will constantly be a non stop flow of DEC foreigners and frozen ATPL cadets and then where is your leverage ? You think the Koch brothers are philanthropists humanitarians and that’s the reason why they donate dozens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to both dems and repubs superpacs for open borders or is it because the chamber of commerce enjoys a never ending source of cheap labour who will never complain.

[slottedslat]

Where can we view this updated TA in full?

[cdnavater]

Let’s take a step back.

First of all it’s not our job to be the leaders or the flag bearers of the pilot industry. That is something that occurs across the industry and across companies. Air Canada and WJ have been around for a long time, have mature contracts and, even then, those pilots certainly haven’t driven wages to the so called US levels that people seem to believe we deserve. Flair has been around, essentially for 3 years, coming out of Covid where we had one aircraft operating. We are a new company and this is our first real contract. We e achieved a 35% pay increase along with some great benefits.

FO wages - we are on par with the industry. Why would we use negotiating capital to negotiate anything beyond the first few years? Our next contract will be negotiated by that point. Captains wages were very low and we concentrated on that.

Hours - virtually no difference between 80 and 85. For most of us it will mean almost nothing. Any of us with even mediocre seniority will still get 15-18 days off or more. The most junior guy might - MIGHT - work an extra day to make up that difference. This crap that some have spouted here about fatigue is ridiculous. The sked here is excellent. But non of you would understand that since your on the outside looking in making uninformed comments.

Most of the commentators here work for the competition and I doubt your veracity and authenticity. You have an agenda. A large number (apestrong etc) are newbies with almost no experience and history in the business and their arguments have little substance and are nothing more than rants.

We have moved the spectrum of pay and conditions significantly and the pay is smack in the middle of pay within Canada. Flairs situation is different then WJ etc. DEC and quick upgrades mean that a new hire now makes more than Vanguard and other senior FOs at WJ. Way more than we would make as FOs at AC. Why would we go to those companies? The profile of the pilot body is different because we are young and that is an advantage for us as pilots. We negotiated a contract based on that profile, based on our history and based on the current situation within the industry. The bullshit comments about us not doing enough is exactly that - bullshit. This pilot group did a great job. As I said, it’s not our responsibility to the lead then Industry but to pull us up to we’re we should be considering everything above. We will have more contracts with which to continue the improvements.

I love the comments that we should have voted it down! From those same young guns who have no clue how any of this works. “Vote it down and they will have to give you more - the more that they are hiding…..” blah blah blah. After that it would require a strike vote. Could we have forced arbitration? Maybe. But that’s a gamble. The company came up with 35% for captains, slight adjustment to FOs and a significantly thicker document with standard ALPA content. You think an arbitration would not have taken that into account?? Again a group of people who have no clue and now choose to pontificate about how we failed pilots across Canada. It’s laughable.

The negotiating team did a great job. It’s a first step. The others can now take this and move their contracts upwards from which we can then work to do the same. I guarantee that the WJ MEC is using this contract as a jumping board.

All I heard from all of this is I got my 35% and it’s not my job to raise the bar in Canada, it’s someone else’s job!
Also, if and I say that knowing the answer but IF the negotiation committee did a good job, the vote would have been 90+% voter turn out and 90% yes. Your results speak volumes on how well they did. They should be ashamed not praised, I would venture the demographic of the voters would be close to the results, ie 35% lower time FOs saw through the bullsquirt and yes 5 more credit hours is a big deal, it’s either one more day or five longer days. It’s not like the company will find a way to make your pairing :20 minutes longer per day for 15 days, only someone who hasn’t been around would think that. Your qol will change with this, you will see.

[cdnavater]

LMAO at people shitting on Flair for the conditions of this industry when you had the Jazz B scale, Swoop’s entire existence, SWG CBA 4, AC flat pay, etc. I can’t remember seeing any of the Jazzies A scaler show any kindness to their 42k/yr FO and they’re all here shitting on this TA but when it was their time at bat to make a stand they sold off the next generation and now they’re all upset because they don’t get to freeride on someone else negos.

I’m not happy about it either and I don’t work for Flair but then again
1- It was negotiated and supported by the ALPA MEC
2- They need experienced drivers more than they need FOs. The 2000-3000hrs FOs will probably end up at AC by the end of 2023.
3- They will be able to rake the bottom of the barrel just like Sunwing did and put 250hrs wonders on the right seat of a 737 who will be more than happy to sit down and shut up for a couple of years as it is a better fate than 42k a year to fly 6 legs per day on a dash.

You want to truly make permanent change to Canadian aviation landscape ? Have all unions come together and lobby the fed to raise the min experience to fly a 705 a/c at 1500hrs + full ATPL and close the fucking border to foreign workers including fast track immigration.
If you’re not willing to do either thing, there will constantly be a non stop flow of DEC foreigners and frozen ATPL cadets and then where is your leverage ? You think the Koch brothers are philanthropists humanitarians and that’s the reason why they donate dozens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to both dems and repubs superpacs for open borders or is it because the chamber of commerce enjoys a never ending source of cheap labour who will never complain.

You are a broken record, different situation now for negotiations than when we(jazzieA) negotiated

[unionism101]

Let’s take a step back.

First of all it’s not our job to be the leaders or the flag bearers of the pilot industry. That is something that occurs across the industry and across companies. Air Canada and WJ have been around for a long time, have mature contracts and, even then, those pilots certainly haven’t driven wages to the so called US levels that people seem to believe we deserve. Flair has been around, essentially for 3 years, coming out of Covid where we had one aircraft operating. We are a new company and this is our first real contract. We e achieved a 35% pay increase along with some great benefits.

FO wages - we are on par with the industry. Why would we use negotiating capital to negotiate anything beyond the first few years? Our next contract will be negotiated by that point. Captains wages were very low and we concentrated on that.

Hours - virtually no difference between 80 and 85. For most of us it will mean almost nothing. Any of us with even mediocre seniority will still get 15-18 days off or more. The most junior guy might - MIGHT - work an extra day to make up that difference. This crap that some have spouted here about fatigue is ridiculous. The sked here is excellent. But non of you would understand that since your on the outside looking in making uninformed comments.

Most of the commentators here work for the competition and I doubt your veracity and authenticity. You have an agenda. A large number (apestrong etc) are newbies with almost no experience and history in the business and their arguments have little substance and are nothing more than rants.

We have moved the spectrum of pay and conditions significantly and the pay is smack in the middle of pay within Canada. Flairs situation is different then WJ etc. DEC and quick upgrades mean that a new hire now makes more than Vanguard and other senior FOs at WJ. Way more than we would make as FOs at AC. Why would we go to those companies? The profile of the pilot body is different because we are young and that is an advantage for us as pilots. We negotiated a contract based on that profile, based on our history and based on the current situation within the industry. The bullshit comments about us not doing enough is exactly that - bullshit. This pilot group did a great job. As I said, it’s not our responsibility to the lead then Industry but to pull us up to we’re we should be considering everything above. We will have more contracts with which to continue the improvements.

I love the comments that we should have voted it down! From those same young guns who have no clue how any of this works. “Vote it down and they will have to give you more - the more that they are hiding…..” blah blah blah. After that it would require a strike vote. Could we have forced arbitration? Maybe. But that’s a gamble. The company came up with 35% for captains, slight adjustment to FOs and a significantly thicker document with standard ALPA content. You think an arbitration would not have taken that into account?? Again a group of people who have no clue and now choose to pontificate about how we failed pilots across Canada. It’s laughable.

The negotiating team did a great job. It’s a first step. The others can now take this and move their contracts upwards from which we can then work to do the same. I guarantee that the WJ MEC is using this contract as a jumping board.

I think the official management term here is "Hook, Line and Sinker"

[Freshredmeat]

Hours - virtually no difference between 80 and 85. For most of us it will mean almost nothing. Any of us with even mediocre seniority will still get 15-18 days off or more. The most junior guy might - MIGHT - work an extra day to make up that difference. This crap that some have spouted here about fatigue is ridiculous. The sked here is excellent. But non of you would understand that since your on the outside looking in making uninformed comments.

Most of the commentators here work for the competition and I doubt your veracity and authenticity. You have an agenda.

We have US ALPA carriers with already vastly better contracts picketing because they are tired and saying it is unsafe.

Here in Canada we have an airline voting in more hours and saying 80 to 85 is "almost no difference" and saying "fatigue is ridiculous"

I guess they don't understand this is permanent and what pattern bargaining is

My question is: has an airline ever been kicked out of ALPA because their pilots are too stupid?

[CPU2000]

Hours - virtually no difference between 80 and 85. For most of us it will mean almost nothing. Any of us with even mediocre seniority will still get 15-18 days off or more. The most junior guy might - MIGHT - work an extra day to make up that difference. This crap that some have spouted here about fatigue is ridiculous. The sked here is excellent. But non of you would understand that since your on the outside looking in making uninformed comments.

Most of the commentators here work for the competition and I doubt your veracity and authenticity. You have an agenda.

We have US ALPA carriers with already vastly better contracts picketing because they are tired and saying it is unsafe.

Here in Canada we have an airline voting in more hours and saying 80 to 85 is "almost no difference" and saying "fatigue is ridiculous"

I guess they don't understand this is permanent and what pattern bargaining is

My question is: has an airline ever been kicked out of ALPA because their pilots are too stupid?

Lol...a little harsh but it is concerning that a supposed ALPA carrier could think so short sighted & individualistic

[dumpsterfire]

Perhaps they are adopting acpa's policy of "we will get them next time" but of course next time there will be xxx reason why we can't get'em so we plan on getting them next time

Cycle continues for 2 decades as excuses get old & your starting pay is now less than a ULCC

[rooster]

Look at one more scab taking shots. I find it quite amusing.

Well none of us went off a runway recently so I guess that’s good. That’s what it took to wake up the US. Unfortunate to say that is what it will take in Canada too sadly.

Flair can continue boasting about their quick 4000hr upgrades.

I wasn't going to comment because of the nature of the poo flinging here but now I'm caving. Vanguard, dude, shut uppppp. Why are you losing your mind over this TA passing? You're a WestJet FO, nothing to brag about there. Your airline sucks. Totally lost their direction, sh*t pay (and don't go off about what your pilots make on OT, you can get that at Flair, Sunwing, AC etc). Your pilot group did NOTHING to raise the bar for pilots in Canada. So you'd be the cliche of pot calling the kettle black. Maybe if your group and AC's group didn't lower the bar or maybe had you done better in raising it, y'all wouldn't be here attacking Flair pilots for not doing it for you. UNREAL!!! Like I'm actually laughing out loud thinking about it. What is wrong with you people? Seriously? What is wrong with you?

Oh and what was the point of posting the screenshot of the VP? You seem keen on pointing out names of Flair pilots, be it management or not. Why don't you tell us who you are? Name? That's what I thought. Just another internet warrior. Why don't you meander back to the WestJet thread and worry about your own sh*tty state of affairs.

[wyndham]

What a shame this TA passed. Too bad Sunwing's LOU wasn't negotiated a bit sooner and that might have given the Flair pilots some real perspective on where the industry is at right now. The Flair pilots just voted themselves into the hardest working lowest paid 737 job in Canada for the next 3 years....and people are coming on here and defending it? Yikes. You could have and should have done better. There was a lot of runway left in the bargaining process to achieve more during this unprecedented time in Canadian aviation. If you're a Flair pilot and you're happy with it, that's good for you, but the rest on here saying you could have got much much more are without a doubt absolutely correct and it hurts us all that you didn't.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Look at one more scab taking shots. I find it quite amusing.

Well none of us went off a runway recently so I guess that’s good. That’s what it took to wake up the US. Unfortunate to say that is what it will take in Canada too sadly.

Flair can continue boasting about their quick 4000hr upgrades.

I wasn't going to comment because of the nature of the poo flinging here but now I'm caving. Vanguard, dude, shut uppppp. Why are you losing your mind over this TA passing? You're a WestJet FO, nothing to brag about there. Your airline sucks. Totally lost their direction, sh*t pay (and don't go off about what your pilots make on OT, you can get that at Flair, Sunwing, AC etc). Your pilot group did NOTHING to raise the bar for pilots in Canada. So you'd be the cliche of pot calling the kettle black. Maybe if your group and AC's group didn't lower the bar or maybe had you done better in raising it, y'all wouldn't be here attacking Flair pilots for not doing it for you. UNREAL!!! Like I'm actually laughing out loud thinking about it. What is wrong with you people? Seriously? What is wrong with you?

Oh and what was the point of posting the screenshot of the VP? You seem keen on pointing out names of Flair pilots, be it management or not. Why don't you tell us who you are? Name? That's what I thought. Just another internet warrior. Why don't you meander back to the WestJet thread and worry about your own sh*tty state of affairs.

@Vanguard. Again man listen carefully. As much as I have been critical about the FO pay not increasing at Flair, I feel like there is a strong line which you never cross at public forums. That line is that you never start publicly humiliating and taking names of pilots. That just shows how little you are. Thats not “westjetty” of you . Lets talk about what happened at Westjet. You guys tried to strike a deal for holiday pay incentive to get 2.5 times on peak days. The management rejected your proposal. What did you guys do? NOTHING. Did apla come out and tell all the pilots to not pick up OT ?? No! Flair does pay 2x OT on days off and in the past they have increased it to 3x. Now before you start calling respectable pilots scabs, be brave enough to tell your own name. UNITY AND RESPECT between pilot groups will improce the industry in Canada. Santa will give you a bonus uber gift card if you groom the plane.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Also boys if anyone wants DEC at Porter lmk. Word is they will beat Flair’s contract with heavy bonuses as they are desperate for pilots. Peace

[Vanguard]

Look at one more scab taking shots. I find it quite amusing.

Well none of us went off a runway recently so I guess that’s good. That’s what it took to wake up the US. Unfortunate to say that is what it will take in Canada too sadly.

Flair can continue boasting about their quick 4000hr upgrades.

I wasn't going to comment because of the nature of the poo flinging here but now I'm caving. Vanguard, dude, shut uppppp. Why are you losing your mind over this TA passing? You're a WestJet FO, nothing to brag about there. Your airline sucks. Totally lost their direction, sh*t pay (and don't go off about what your pilots make on OT, you can get that at Flair, Sunwing, AC etc). Your pilot group did NOTHING to raise the bar for pilots in Canada. So you'd be the cliche of pot calling the kettle black. Maybe if your group and AC's group didn't lower the bar or maybe had you done better in raising it, y'all wouldn't be here attacking Flair pilots for not doing it for you. UNREAL!!! Like I'm actually laughing out loud thinking about it. What is wrong with you people? Seriously? What is wrong with you?

Oh and what was the point of posting the screenshot of the VP? You seem keen on pointing out names of Flair pilots, be it management or not. Why don't you tell us who you are? Name? That's what I thought. Just another internet warrior. Why don't you meander back to the WestJet thread and worry about your own sh*tty state of affairs.

@Vanguard. Again man listen carefully. As much as I have been critical about the FO pay not increasing at Flair, I feel like there is a strong line which you never cross at public forums. That line is that you never start publicly humiliating and taking names of pilots. That just shows how little you are. Thats not “westjetty” of you . Lets talk about what happened at Westjet. You guys tried to strike a deal for holiday pay incentive to get 2.5 times on peak days. The management rejected your proposal. What did you guys do? NOTHING. Did apla come out and tell all the pilots to not pick up OT ?? No! Flair does pay 2x OT on days off and in the past they have increased it to 3x. Now before you start calling respectable pilots scabs, be brave enough to tell your own name. UNITY AND RESPECT between pilot groups will improce the industry in Canada. Santa will give you a bonus uber gift card if you groom the plane.

Your comment doesn’t harm or offend me in anyway. This is the difference between you and me. I would not defend WJ for a second but here you stand thinking this is a battle between who is a better airline. That’s not what I am going for. It’s an easy answer but it’s not about that.

In reality all airlines in Canada suck. What I am attacking is the people like you who continue to defend this old mentality that we should be grateful for the job and take a beating and accepting sub par wages. I am trying to help you wake the %#* up.


Also in regard to the 2x OT debacle happening at WestJet right now. You do realize we are in active bargaining right. You don’t think they’re going to try and pull this bullshit on us right now? I don’t see WJ Pilots bending over like puppets for the company. There’s a reason you are seeing so many cancellations. The Union CANT tell us not to pick up because they would be considered Job action. You probably don’t know how a union works based on your comment. There is a lot happening behind the scenes that even I can’t share but I can assure you our Union is quite strong, we will not accept subpar wages and when we vote you won’t see 65% satisfaction from our pilots.

Also we took all those Uber eat cards and gave them to people who actually need them. Merry Christmas!

In reality WJ pilots have been on war since the inception of Swoop which btw formed because of emergence of NewLeaf (Flair) / JetLines and Lynx and those pilots accepting the lowest wages on the planet to get that airline up and running. They just want to fly an airplane!!


You didn’t see any WJ pilots accept their left seats at Swoop did you? Do you know how JR Swoop Captain positions in 2017 could have been held by FOs at Encore? Maybe 4-5 guys went over there but the rest held the line. The company offered 12k bonuses for encore pilots to go to Swoop and 7000$ for FOs and even then we held the line.

In arbitration those scabs became WJ pilots because we fought for Swoop airplanes to be flown by WJ pilots. It was a big win to get that flying considering WJ was contracting that flying out to anyone they could find. The arbitrator did not award us same pay however because at the time Flair / CN were happy accepting peanuts so we ended up with a B Scale.

During the pandemic we took the opportunity to wipe out the scabs and rebuild the airline from within. We enforced the contract and made it a point to take a stand against improper wages. WJ management has reached out many times trying to increase wages at Swoop. We will not spend capital to fix the company created issue. The wages at Swoop suck right now because we made it so people would be discouraged. They can barely crew the airline.


Also don’t forget we chased off those scabs from Swoop who are now running the show at Flair. Did you see how some of them bounced around companies? They should all be ashamed of themselves.

You have to know your history to take shots my man and clearly you don’t know it.

[Vanguard]

Also I think I have made my point with the post. It is clear how the industry thinks of the TA.

I wish the Flair Pilots luck going ahead and hope they will continue to fight for better wages. Don’t let your managers deceit you. Airlines fly because of Pilots and your cost has nothing to do with profitability. If an accident occurs — think of that. Think of your crew. To be against each other won’t accomplish anything.

This TA was management driven and did not meet the mark we would all like to see Canadian pilots. It is def an improvement to the shit that was given before so at least I can say there is some change.

Don’t defend the scabs, all of us need to do more to make aviation great again.

A very happy holidays to you all and Merry Christmas!

[CPU2000]

How many Swoopsters are now at Flair?