Negotiations

[Nick678]

Alpa has made many statements about filing a grievance once the year is over, there’s no question the contract was violated, however any gains in the contract won’t help those who go over in Jan and Feb. I’m just asking here, I really have no clue if this is possible. You don’t technically quit Jazz when you go over.

To be clear, taking action against Jazz, NOT air Canada. And NOT looking for seniority at AC. Just money.

[goleafsgo]

How did Jazz ignore the contract? AC controls the hiring and were the ones not hiring from Jazz for a while. They’re also the ones now who are keeping the hiring portal closed for Jazz applicants. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jazz asked AC to slow the hiring for a bit or not hire captains for a bit but AC makes the final decisions for their hiring.

And yes you do quit Jazz when you go over. They’re 2 separate companies, you resign from your position at Jazz.

[flyingcanuck]

How did Jazz ignore the contract? AC controls the hiring and were the ones not hiring from Jazz for a while. They’re also the ones now who are keeping the hiring portal closed for Jazz applicants. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jazz asked AC to slow the hiring for a bit or not hire captains for a bit but AC makes the final decisions for their hiring.

You just answered your own question. Contract says AC shall hire a certain amount, Jazz says pls don't we can't fly all the block hours if you do. Thus contract ignored.

[Loon-A-Tic]

How did Jazz ignore the contract? AC controls the hiring and were the ones not hiring from Jazz for a while. They’re also the ones now who are keeping the hiring portal closed for Jazz applicants. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jazz asked AC to slow the hiring for a bit or not hire captains for a bit but AC makes the final decisions for their hiring.

You just answered your own question. Contract says AC shall hire a certain amount, Jazz says pls don't we can't fly all the block hours if you do. Thus contract ignored.

There may very well be a legitimate grievance, ALPA has said they will address this issue but I don't see any sort of a "class action" lawsuit.

[goleafsgo]

How did Jazz ignore the contract? AC controls the hiring and were the ones not hiring from Jazz for a while. They’re also the ones now who are keeping the hiring portal closed for Jazz applicants. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jazz asked AC to slow the hiring for a bit or not hire captains for a bit but AC makes the final decisions for their hiring.

You just answered your own question. Contract says AC shall hire a certain amount, Jazz says pls don't we can't fly all the block hours if you do. Thus contract ignored.

Jazz can ask but AC makes the final decision. Jazz still has a business to run. I’d still say AC is more at fault for ignoring the 60% than Jazz is

[Aspiredtofly]

What's the situation and the current state at jazz right now. Are they negotiating something, what's the current flow rate to the big red every month

[yhz41]

What's the situation and the current state at jazz right now. Are they negotiating something, what's the current flow rate to the big red every month

There's a negotiation happening, they are "releasing" 40 pilots a month to AC.

[Inverted2]

What's the situation and the current state at jazz right now. Are they negotiating something, what's the current flow rate to the big red every month

There's a negotiation happening, they are "releasing" 40 pilots a month to AC.

Plus several are being “released” to Porter, Flair, and Morningstar to name a few.

[Loon-A-Tic]

What's the situation and the current state at jazz right now. Are they negotiating something, what's the current flow rate to the big red every month

There's a negotiation happening, they are "releasing" 40 pilots a month to AC.

Plus several are being “released” to Porter, Flair, and Morningstar to name a few.

The 40 released per month to AC is "controlled" bleeding but the same can't be said for any other destination, that's better described as "hemorrhaging"

[truedude]

Well let's hope they snap into reality before they bleed out...

[Aspiredtofly]

What's the situation and the current state at jazz right now. Are they negotiating something, what's the current flow rate to the big red every month

There's a negotiation happening, they are "releasing" 40 pilots a month to AC.

Negotiations on wawcons right

[truedude]

Yes. But ALPA is trying to fix things in a meaningful longterm way, while the company simply wants to plug a couple holes, pat themselves on the back as we limp along until some magical future where there is a surpluses of pilots and they can go back to paying us as little as possible.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Yes. But ALPA is trying to fix things in a meaningful longterm way, while the company simply wants to plug a couple holes, pat themselves on the back as we limp along until some magical future where there is a surpluses of pilots and they can go back to paying us as little as possible.

The Jazz MEC ALPA is showing the fortitude that the industry is sorely in need of in these times, nice to see. Will they make everyone happy, no but the issues are systemic not a "one of" so their approach is spot on in my opinion.

[rudder]

Yes. But ALPA is trying to fix things in a meaningful longterm way, while the company simply wants to plug a couple holes, pat themselves on the back as we limp along until some magical future where there is a surpluses of pilots and they can go back to paying us as little as possible.

The Jazz MEC ALPA is showing the fortitude that the industry is sorely in need of in these times, nice to see. Will they make everyone happy, no but the issues are systemic not a "one of" so their approach is spot on in my opinion.

It has taken a long time for pilots to understand the need to say ‘No’ at the bargaining table.

The AC pilots did, despite the best efforts of their purported representation.

The JAZ MEC is saying no as well.

If the piloting profession at large would learn to act in concert, things would look a lot different in Canada.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yes. But ALPA is trying to fix things in a meaningful longterm way, while the company simply wants to plug a couple holes, pat themselves on the back as we limp along until some magical future where there is a surpluses of pilots and they can go back to paying us as little as possible.

The Jazz MEC ALPA is showing the fortitude that the industry is sorely in need of in these times, nice to see. Will they make everyone happy, no but the issues are systemic not a "one of" so their approach is spot on in my opinion.

It has taken a long time for pilots to understand the need to say ‘No’ at the bargaining table.

The AC pilots did, despite the best efforts of their purported representation.

The JAZ MEC is saying no as well.

If the piloting profession at large would learn to act in concert, things would look a lot different in Canada.

I agree rudder. Not just jazz and AC need to learn to say no. It needs to be a United effort. Which admittedly, is hard to orchestrate.

The issue at hand I find, is that when presented with something that works for a single individual, they can be quick to sell out.

Happens it all industries, even wars, or relationships.

I’m a little late to this party and discussion, but many good points brought up here. I applaud most of you, for a good discussion. Keep it going!

[McKinley]

Jazz CBA deficiencies:

1. Year 1-5 pay scales (FO and CA)
2. AC flow enforcement
3. Training pilot overrides
4. Overtime premium
5. Non-DB Pension Plan company contribution rate
6. Benefit premium cost sharing formula
7. Unrestricted reassignment language/no override pay for reassignment
8. Inefficient pairings resulting in maximum days worked

Its easy. And I WILL vote NO unless there is the following.

Year 1-5 pay REMOVED. Slide everyone up that scale.Most places only have a 12yr scale.
+30% on top of that for all remaining years
REA Incentive. 2hs TB MIN.
DELAY credit - 2hr TB
MIN credit pushed to 5hr
ALL events are guaranteed that 5. None of this only 4hrs for training events. None of this 4hr per day vacay nonsense.
Double Time triggers for WDO/OT.
Cap at 16 scheduled days per month. 80hr month and thats what you'd get with a 5.0hr min credit at 16 days.
Increase to DC pension contribution
Company to pay/fund 30% more of the benefit plans.

Ohh.. and for the AC flow screw up? 50k bonus. January 1st. Thats not even a fraction of what it's costing those that get stuck.

Amen…. Finally someone with some self respect.

Here’s a head scratcher..

Job 1 While waiting for my medical, I decided to do my tree fallers certificate. ( entry level course ). I had an entry level seasonal job right away using a chainsaws which included rigging and falling with the boss. ( my skills were being built/ enhanced right out the gate on day 1 ) no straight ramp bs. Tons of ancillary perks with the job.. equipment rental, yard space.. basically treated like gold.

* offered full time with another arborist/ falling company **

Job 1b: laborer doing mountain pine beetle. $300/ day. Meals paid for,… grueling work..with the boss doing the exact same thing I was doing.

Job 1B : I was offered a position as a trainee faller if I upgraded my skills and took the enhanced course. ( which I was going to do anyways) ( enform fallers ticket )Pay : 450/ day. Paid training/ on the job training / mentorship one on one. Safety standards and equipment are top notch. You’re expected to work extremely hard ..but are treated VERY well. Boss is chill and nothing but respectful.

Job 1B After taking my fallers exam my pay goes to well north of 700/ day.

Keep in mind, this is done within a year and a half of getting my initial certificate.

There’s some “ ramp like work” but it’s well paid, I’m treated like a gold and each day is mentoring and on the job training and I’m looking at the end of it after about a year and a half.

Also keep in mind, falling isn’t exactly the easiest industry to enter. From day one, I’ve been treated with respect..


My point? We’ve been treated like garbage for far far far too long. In some ways, having to find alternate work showed me how brutal aviation is.


Do I work hard ? Yes. Do I get dirty? Yes. Am I covered in fuel / dust/ dirt? Yes. Do I get to wear a shirt a tie ? Nope!

I can’t comment on the WAWCON at Jazz …( I don’t work there) but I’m qualified to comment on industry pay… it’s garbage.

The unions should be ashamed of themselves.

PS : I’m not unionized as a faller.. I’m not forced to do stupid shit … and I get in shit if I break safety regulations. I have SOPS and standards.

We can do better …

[WhataYoke]

A construction labourer has less responsibility/education and training than a pilot and still gets paid more than the joke of a salary regional FOs get in this country. I wouldn't recommend anyone become a pilot these days even if its "following your dreams".

[Babar350]

.

[RegionalPilot]

So, I’m curious.
What’s gonna happen once every eligible pilots from before Covid go to AC?
No flow or very minimal flow for 2 years?
AC will be well below the 60 or 40% from the contract.

They will take pilots that came post covid. The 2 year thing is listed within "preference given to", and is in no way a hard requirement. Anyone rejected will count towards the 10% max rejection.

[Babar350]

.

[RegionalPilot]

So, I’m curious.
What’s gonna happen once every eligible pilots from before Covid go to AC?
No flow or very minimal flow for 2 years?
AC will be well below the 60 or 40% from the contract.

They will take pilots that came post covid. The 2 year thing is listed within "preference given to", and is in no way a hard requirement. Anyone rejected will count towards the 10% max rejection.

That’s right I didn’t pay attention to the « preference given to » . I was hoping for a pay raise instead.
Oh well…

I can see a scenario where a new hire gets at Jazz and apply when the portal opens, and gets to do an interview at AC before his PPC ride.

This has to be on the table of negotiations with the union, as Jazz and AC both want to avoid such scenario.

[rudder]

68 fewer pilots on the 01 January seniority list than the 01 Oct seniority list.

That means pilots are leaving faster than they have been replaced.

Between non-AC attrition and AC flow (assuming anything approaching 60% during 2023), hundreds of pilots at Jazz will be departing during 2023. That shiny new E2 parked on the ramp at YYZ will be an effective recruitment display for Porter in conjunction with its recent ad for pilots (including DEC on both the Q400 and the E2). Hundreds would need to be hired at Jazz if the objective is to maintain current staffing.

Are there hundreds of applications on file? Are there hundreds of prospective candidates willing to accept a job offer based on status quo WAWCON at Jazz?

I guess some answers will be forthcoming if there is a January equipment bid. The 2022 equipment bid listed 1357 flying positions.

[swervin]

68 fewer pilots on the 01 January seniority list than the 01 Oct seniority list.

That means pilots are leaving faster than they have been replaced.

Between non-AC attrition and AC flow (assuming anything approaching 60% during 2023), hundreds of pilots at Jazz will be departing during 2023. That shiny new E2 parked on the ramp at YYZ will be an effective recruitment display for Porter in conjunction with its recent ad for pilots (including DEC on both the Q400 and the E2). Hundreds would need to be hired at Jazz if the objective is to maintain current staffing.

Are there hundreds of applications on file? Are there hundreds of prospective candidates willing to accept a job offer based on status quo WAWCON at Jazz?

I guess some answers will be forthcoming if there is a January equipment bid. The 2022 equipment bid listed 1357 flying positions.

According to a CRC member they are meeting with the company in the next week or so to start going over the bid.

[Inverted2]

There’s actually a few retired pilots still on the new seniority list so that 68 number is slightly higher. The person that does the seniority lists late also doesn’t do them properly.

[truedude]

Perhaps once they have a bid laid out on paper, they will realize how screwed they are and pay us appropriately.

We are still short over 100 captains (probably closer to 200) with that growing each day. We also lost a lot to other companies in January, which wouldn't yet be reflected on that list either.