New pay scales

[Ash Ketchum]

The Sunwing pay looks decent on the captain side but still looks a bit low on the FO side. In my opinion a mid sized jet (737, 320, etc) FO should be making $100/hour year one to survive the cost of living in major Canadian cities.

[rudder]

The Sunwing pay looks decent on the captain side but still looks a bit low on the FO side. In my opinion a mid sized jet (737, 320, etc) FO should be making $100/hour year one to survive the cost of living in major Canadian cities.

For too long, carriers have institutionalized ‘probation pay’. That is how they historically have justified low entry level compensation (typically on the FO scale but most recently on the entry level CA scale as well for DEC).

If you don’t want to hire ‘career’ FO’s or are selling rapid upgrade opportunities, start at appropriate FO pay for equipment and just don’t let FO tenure increase beyond a reasonable scale (say 6-8 years assuming all affected pilots are eligible for upgrade within this time frame).

If a pilot is qualified, they should be paid as qualified from Day 1.

[Instructor_Mike]

This is a mid-contract LOU that is being voted on to raise the wages. The details you mention remain the same as per the current contract, which you can get here:

http://safeflights.ca/uploads/Labour_Ag ... _FINAL.pdf

Thanks for that. Some interesting stuff in there. Some is pretty good.

[Ash Ketchum]

The Sunwing pay looks decent on the captain side but still looks a bit low on the FO side. In my opinion a mid sized jet (737, 320, etc) FO should be making $100/hour year one to survive the cost of living in major Canadian cities.

For too long, carriers have institutionalized ‘probation pay’. That is how they historically have justified low entry level compensation (typically on the FO scale but most recently on the entry level CA scale as well for DEC).

If you don’t want to hire ‘career’ FO’s or are selling rapid upgrade opportunities, start at appropriate FO pay for equipment and just don’t let FO tenure increase beyond a reasonable scale (say 6-8 years assuming all affected pilots are eligible for upgrade within this time frame).

If a pilot is qualified, they should be paid as qualified from Day 1.

Agreed. These aren't entry level jobs (unlike some 737 FOs in Europe) but the FO pay is entry level. I think it's realistic for a first year FO to make 2/3 of a first year captain on the same airframe.

[Blueontop]

What is the most realistic upgrade time now?

[safetyfirst123]

What is the most realistic upgrade time now?

There are far too many variables right now to give an accurate answer. If you meet the qualifications for upgrade, it could be almost immediate, but then again it could be a few years depending on how the company, the merger, and overall industry go. My best guess is a couple of years.

[Blueontop]

What is the most realistic upgrade time now?

There are far too many variables right now to give an accurate answer. If you meet the qualifications for upgrade, it could be almost immediate, but then again it could be a few years depending on how the company, the merger, and overall industry go. My best guess is a couple of years.

Coming in with 5000+ total, 2000+ multi-jet pic (1000+ mid-size jet) with international experience would that result in a rapid upgrade? TIA

[ant_321]

What is the most realistic upgrade time now?

There are far too many variables right now to give an accurate answer. If you meet the qualifications for upgrade, it could be almost immediate, but then again it could be a few years depending on how the company, the merger, and overall industry go. My best guess is a couple of years.

Coming in with 5000+ total, 2000+ multi-jet pic (1000+ mid-size jet) with international experience would that result in a rapid upgrade? TIA

It could. Upgrades are based on seniority plus other factors but having the qualifications when people senior to you do not can result in a faster upgrade. It also depends on what the jet pic is on. The requirements involve having time on aircraft over 100,000 lbs.

[co-joe]

It could. Upgrades are based on seniority plus other factors but having the qualifications when people senior to you do not can result in a faster upgrade. It also depends on what the jet pic is on. The requirements involve having time on aircraft over 100,000 lbs.

I know you and I have talked about this already here, but I'm really surprised WG didn't come off the 5000 tt, and 2000 on a 50 tonne jet requirement with the new TA. Those numbers are archaic. I understand that you probably only get to be PF for less than 10 sectors a month, but nobody has that time and is looking for a job any-more. Your management is literally artificially creating an un necessary un-upgradeable FO problem.

[wyndham]

It could. Upgrades are based on seniority plus other factors but having the qualifications when people senior to you do not can result in a faster upgrade. It also depends on what the jet pic is on. The requirements involve having time on aircraft over 100,000 lbs.

I know you and I have talked about this already here, but I'm really surprised WG didn't come off the 5000 tt, and 2000 on a 50 tonne jet requirement with the new TA. Those numbers are archaic. I understand that you probably only get to be PF for less than 10 sectors a month, but nobody has that time and is looking for a job any-more. Your management is literally artificially creating an un necessary un-upgradeable FO problem.

That's an pretty out to lunch statemet. There's never been an un upgradable FO problem. Those numbers can be reduced 500 hours per year employed at Sunwing, so 4000 and 1000. If you have the time, upgrades in less than a year. If not, work for 2 years, get your 1000 hours and you're eligible. Also, company can and has waived the weight limit for high time jet pilots, ie Embraer. I don't think I've ever heard one pilot here say the times should be lowered, nor would it be safe to do so.

[safetyfirst123]

It could. Upgrades are based on seniority plus other factors but having the qualifications when people senior to you do not can result in a faster upgrade. It also depends on what the jet pic is on. The requirements involve having time on aircraft over 100,000 lbs.

I know you and I have talked about this already here, but I'm really surprised WG didn't come off the 5000 tt, and 2000 on a 50 tonne jet requirement with the new TA. Those numbers are archaic. I understand that you probably only get to be PF for less than 10 sectors a month, but nobody has that time and is looking for a job any-more. Your management is literally artificially creating an un necessary un-upgradeable FO problem.

So far, there is not a lack of upgradeable FO's at Sunwing, despite management's best efforts to paint that picture. I'm sure at some point, these requirements might need to be reconsidered, but not yet.

[elite]

The Sunwing pay looks decent on the captain side but still looks a bit low on the FO side. In my opinion a mid sized jet (737, 320, etc) FO should be making $100/hour year one to survive the cost of living in major Canadian cities.

For too long, carriers have institutionalized ‘probation pay’. That is how they historically have justified low entry level compensation (typically on the FO scale but most recently on the entry level CA scale as well for DEC).

If you don’t want to hire ‘career’ FO’s or are selling rapid upgrade opportunities, start at appropriate FO pay for equipment and just don’t let FO tenure increase beyond a reasonable scale (say 6-8 years assuming all affected pilots are eligible for upgrade within this time frame).

If a pilot is qualified, they should be paid as qualified from Day 1.

I would posit it’s the union protectionism that causes that. Other professionals changing jobs don’t have to do that, doctors, lawyers, even electricians, plumbers,…. Only pilots force another pilot from another airline to the bottom of their list and try to make sure they don’t get paid more.

[flyingpilot]

Would anyone be able to give me some information on the current pay and per diems, working conditions, what kind of pairings to expect if toronto based, and how often could one possibly expect to be on reserve, and how long are the reserve blocks? would it be possible and reasonable to commute? Thanks in advance.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Would anyone be able to give me some information on the current pay and per diems, working conditions, what kind of pairings to expect if toronto based, and how often could one possibly expect to be on reserve, and how long are the reserve blocks? would it be possible and reasonable to commute? Thanks in advance.

Can’t speak to the working conditions, pairings, reserve… but the pay, per diems and block construction etc can be found on their collective agreement.

https://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agree ... 32403a.pdf

[frog]

As a junior pilot, you can expect a lot of reserve.
Long pairings. However, it is max 16 days of work per month. You can have a great qol if you're not commuting.
once you are more senior, you can have the turn and make your 80 hours in 10 days with no reserve.
Don't expect it's going to be easy if you commute as a junior.

[ant_321]

The pay in the collective agreement is outdated, it was increased with an LOU. You can find the pay in this table. Min credit varies between months. Comes to 960hrs per year.

[Fanblade]

Do the WJ pilot increases impact Sunwing payscales? I though I read somewhere you had a me too

This is aside from the obvious combined collective agreement during the integration process.

[MaxAuto]

Do the WJ pilot increases impact Sunwing payscales? I though I read somewhere you had a me too

This is aside from the obvious combined collective agreement during the integration process.

There is no "Me Too" clause. Our pay rate remains the same. Our CBA is up next year. Hopefully we make better gains and establish protection for our crew members and our flying.

[Fanblade]

Do the WJ pilot increases impact Sunwing payscales? I though I read somewhere you had a me too

This is aside from the obvious combined collective agreement during the integration process.

There is no "Me Too" clause. Our pay rate remains the same. Our CBA is up next year. Hopefully we make better gains and establish protection for our crew members and our flying.

Thanks MaxAuto.

The process for mergers is you first select representation. Then you come up with a combined contract. Depending on time lines the combined contract and common representation may come before your current contract expires.

The most painful part of any merger is always the next step which is integration. With that said the parties have very little control. The only opinion that matters will be that of the arbitrator. The arbitrators decision will be based on past decisions. The basic premise is to keep everyone doing the same job they were doing the day before the merge. They look first to DOH. If that doesn’t look reasonable they move on to ratios and fences.

There is no our flying or their flying

[cdnavater]

Do the WJ pilot increases impact Sunwing payscales? I though I read somewhere you had a me too

This is aside from the obvious combined collective agreement during the integration process.

There is no "Me Too" clause. Our pay rate remains the same. Our CBA is up next year. Hopefully we make better gains and establish protection for our crew members and our flying.

Thanks MaxAuto.

The process for mergers is you first select representation. Then you come up with a combined contract. Depending on time lines the combined contract and common representation may come before your current contract expires.

The most painful part of any merger is always the next step which is integration. With that said the parties have very little control. The only opinion that matters will be that of the arbitrator. The arbitrators decision will be based on past decisions. The basic premise is to keep everyone doing the same job they were doing the day before the merge. They look first to DOH. If that doesn’t look reasonable they move on to ratios and fences.

There is no our flying or their flying

That’s an interesting statement, “a combined contract”, when the merger goes forward is there another negotiation to take place, could Westjet try to meet somewhere in the middle of the two and end up with another potential strike?