How long to get YYC base

[averageatbest]

Good point, I suppose Rouge too until that was fixed. But we're not talking anywhere close to the B-scale 50% pay difference for captains we see between Swoop and Mainline. Swoop is dead in the water as it is, no one will bid across to there and they've all but given up on hiring.

You can ignore the people who would go to Swoop willingly, but doing so will blindfold you during battle.

The benefit to Swoop is a quicker upgrade time resulting in higher pay sooner and PIC time. Pilots who live in or around Edmonton, Abbotsford, and Hamilton wanting a shorter commute and less time between parking and getting to the gate might find it worth it too.

[pacman007]

I fell like I heard this story before…. What happened To the original swoop pilots? Didn’t they get booted to FO also?
It’s never a good idea to take a Capt seat out of seniority.

[elite]

I don’t think your union would allow a Capt 10 years out of seniority, my guess would be a 737 rebid. All swoop pilots would be in a position they can actually hold. If you want to be on the “list” you must hold the position you can hold on the list.

Well ace, that ain’t my union, but I’m sure you’ll tell us if YOUR union tries to reinvent the wheel again! Why would you want a rebid? Have other pilots not been able to bid up until now? What was stopping them? Will there be a rebid every time some one doesn’t like things? For instance, at Air Canada 737 or 767 might go junior for now for whatever reason, when and if conditions change, should there be a rebid too?!

[RockSalty]

I don’t think your union would allow a Capt 10 years out of seniority, my guess would be a 737 rebid. All swoop pilots would be in a position they can actually hold. If you want to be on the “list” you must hold the position you can hold on the list.

Well ace, that ain’t my union, but I’m sure you’ll tell us if YOUR union tries to reinvent the wheel again! Why would you want a rebid? Have other pilots not been able to bid up until now? What was stopping them? Will there be a rebid every time some one doesn’t like things? For instance, at Air Canada 737 or 767 might go junior for now for whatever reason, when and if conditions change, should there be a rebid too?!

If the only reason you were able to hold a swoop CA position is that more senior people didn’t want to do it for swoop pay, but now the position is paid the same as mainline and is now actually desirable to more people, is it really “fair” for you to keep that captain spot several years out of seniority?

[cloak]

I believe the MEC’s position is divisive and counterproductive. I do not recall any questions in their survey that would lead them to a rebid. There can’t be a rebid every time there is a change somewhere. The system has already been flushed through the arbitration and again through the pandemic and another rebid is too disruptive to too many people, and too expensive when the company is trying to recover. There have been so many recalls and so much emotions. As representatives of a democratic organization responsible to all due-paying members, they should be more diplomatic, focus on improving conditions for all pilots, and represent all pilots.

[cdnavater]

I don’t think your union would allow a Capt 10 years out of seniority, my guess would be a 737 rebid. All swoop pilots would be in a position they can actually hold. If you want to be on the “list” you must hold the position you can hold on the list.

Our union would, they were hired as DEC and then some WJ pilots bid it for their own reasons, now that the field is changing you expect them to go back because you don’t like their choice.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t think they should have been there in the first place but they’re going to be at the bottom of the list until A, they can’t take the lifestyle bottom of the list and bid an FO spot or B, they move up due to hiring but even then if there is hiring and open Captain spots don’t you think they will be filled internally by more senior pilots.
Leaving them there is condemning them to a very long time of being super junior, isn’t that punishment enough.
Me personally, my hope would be a vacancy bid for more Captains and push them even further down, but we don’t have a bump and flush in our contract, the only way to flush would be a down bid company wide and then when needed a vacancy bid, which again would be open to all. We do have reinstatement language but I believe even that still requires the seniority to hold the spot.
I say, leave them at the bottom!

[Canadaflyer46]

Upgrades at WJ are around the 10 year mark for YYZ, and closer to 15 for YYC. There is seldom any growth at this company, the latest bid had precisely ZERO upgrades. Damn f*cking right Swoop captains should go back to the right seat once the pay is doubled. They're sitting in a seat TEN YEARS out of seniority in some cases. Swoop was a "f*ck you" airline created on the exact day that the WJ pilots unionized. It has served its purpose in whipsawing and for those that took the left seat there (and stayed post-covid) in hopes of jumping the line, tough shit. Can't say you didn't foresee this coming. I do understand Swoop makes sense for those in YEG, however the company announced recently they are planning a YEG base soon, so that will be a consolation.
Many people at WJ will never see a left seat, and for those FOs that have waited patiently for ten+ years it would be unconscionable to accept that someone OTS with a few months seniority is able to keep a captain spot at mainline wages.

[averageatbest]

Many people at WJ will never see a left seat, and for those FOs that have waited patiently for ten+ years it would be unconscionable to accept that someone OTS with a few months seniority is able to keep a captain spot at mainline wages.

I'm sure that I'm going to regret saying this, but someone choosing to go to stay in the right seat at WestJet and not bidding Swoop to reap the benefits of it are not the problem of the person who chose Swoop.

[cloak]

Some of the strong “condemning” comments ostensibly coming from WestJet pilots, and there is no way to verify that, but if true, it tends to explain the repeated recalls and emotions! Although there have been times that they were made from union advocates of other airlines. At any rate, all these emotions and recalls are not helpful to reason and diplomacy. It’s also surprising that ALPA has allowed this discourse because first, it opens it to breach of DFR , and secondly more disgruntled members make it less likely to become the union of choice post merger. Sunwing pilots will also be more likely to contest ALPA’s representation.

[sstaurus]

Many people at WJ will never see a left seat, and for those FOs that have waited patiently for ten+ years it would be unconscionable to accept that someone OTS with a few months seniority is able to keep a captain spot at mainline wages.

I'm sure that I'm going to regret saying this, but someone choosing to go to stay in the right seat at WestJet and not bidding Swoop to reap the benefits of it are not the problem of the person who chose Swoop.

Reap the benefits?? Those who stayed at mainline did so to protect mainline conditions, and not the B scale union-buster that is Swoop. Those who supported it should not be rewarded.

[CaptainHaddock]

C’mon. WestJet starts Swoop when the WJ pilots unionize to circumvent them. ALPA and ACPA both publicly tell pilots not to apply there. After the dust settles Kaplan punts the off the street pilots to the right seat. Every pilot at Swoop is fully aware (or lives in a cave somewhere) that WJ ALPA wants the same contract (WAWCON) for all WJ pilots. So now it is finally coming, a rebid is the only solution.
Anything else just sows the seeds of discontent to reap later, and why?, other than the cool factor of the 4th bar Swoop pilots will have more days off, better schedule, and more money. Maybe pay protection until the FO salary catches up. WJ would then pay every senior FO YOS CA pay then too as they were awarded out of seniority?.
The union is supposed to represent all the members, but that is pretty hard in this situation, and the ultimate solution does represent them all the best. One contract for all the pilots, Swoop is super low pay and tops out at year 3, so what do Swoop guys/gals actually want, shit pay but a command position?. The latest rumor is YEG Swoop base is closing anyway and being replaced with a YXX base (WTF?). The main reason why upgrades at WJ went from 8 to 10 years are the 150 Swoop CA spots, one contract and we get back to 8 years (depending on ‘the growth story’), with YOS that is a pretty good bump.
I’m not sure what other solutions people are imagining, but they can’t crew Swoop with the current conditions and there is no appetite to negotiate a better ‘B’ scale.

[Blackdog0301]

It’s also surprising that ALPA has allowed this discourse because first, it opens it to breach of DFR , and secondly more disgruntled members make it less likely to become the union of choice post merger. Sunwing pilots will also be more likely to contest ALPA’s representation.

This is an interesting point. What is stopping the group of Swoop pilots from filing a complaint against ALPA for violating its duty of fair representation? It seems like they would have a case if a rebid were to happen...

[330heavy]

Is there no language in your contract about not bumping those out of their seat/base/equipment unless of a downbid? Usually common language in ALPA contracts. So unless a downbid, no one is losing their seat regardless of seniority.

[averageatbest]

Is there no language in your contract about not bumping those out of their seat/base/equipment unless of a downbid? Usually common language in ALPA contracts. So unless a downbid, no one is losing their seat regardless of seniority.

There is nothing in the current contract to allow for a rebid. The only shuffle allowed is during a displacement bid where positions are being reduced.

[Ex DC10 Driver]

If the WACON is completely changed and matched to WestJet mainline then a complete rebid is definitely in order!

[averageatbest]

If the WACON is completely changed and matched to WestJet mainline then a complete rebid is definitely in order!

The MEC would need a strong mandate or a vote on any MOA/LOU that would allow for a rebid. You cannot ignore the interests of 12% of your pilots without the explicit mandate from the majority.

[sarg]

The latest rumor is YEG Swoop base is closing anyway and being replaced with a YXX base (WTF?). The main reason why upgrades at WJ went from 8 to 10 years are the 150 Swoop CA spots, one contract and we get back to 8 years (depending on ‘the growth story’), with YOS that is a pretty good bump.

Is there no language in your contract about not bumping those out of their seat/base/equipment unless of a downbid? Usually common language in ALPA contracts. So unless a downbid, no one is losing their seat regardless of seniority.

There is nothing in the current contract to allow for a rebid. The only shuffle allowed is during a displacement bid where positions are being reduced.

These 2 are related, first just because the current CBA doesn't have language for a rebid doesn't mean that the incoming CBA won't.

A base closure and opening will trigger a rebid, so the company solves everyone's problems by closing Swoop YEG opening Swoop YXX, if they open a WestJet YEG at the same even better. The rumored timeline for base decisions just happens to coincide with the rumored completion time for CBA negotiations.

It’s also surprising that ALPA has allowed this discourse because first, it opens it to breach of DFR , and secondly more disgruntled members make it less likely to become the union of choice post merger. Sunwing pilots will also be more likely to contest ALPA’s representation.

This is an interesting point. What is stopping the group of Swoop pilots from filing a complaint against ALPA for violating its duty of fair representation? It seems like they would have a case if a rebid were to happen...

DFR case rarely succeed, because all the union has to show is they looked after the greatest number of members. So yes a few members from Swoop may be disadvantaged by a rebid but the union can argue that it benefits the membership as a whole because of the improved WACON (assuming matching WACON). If, ALPA eliminates the "B scale" at Swoop even if it triggers a rebid, it could be argued that that's a positive for Sunwing pilots to embrace ALPA because it means they'll fight to ensure that all groups get the best pay.

[averageatbest]

These 2 are related, first just because the current CBA doesn't have language for a rebid doesn't mean that the incoming CBA won't.

A base closure and opening will trigger a rebid, so the company solves everyone's problems by closing Swoop YEG opening Swoop YXX, if they open a WestJet YEG at the same even better. The rumored timeline for base decisions just happens to coincide with the rumored completion time for CBA negotiations.

The new CBA would need to be ratified by the pilot group which (in my mind) would fulfill my argument that a vote would need to take place.

The base argument is speculation at best and is as likely as an operational merger between Encore and WestJet.

[pacman007]

“ After the dust settles Kaplan punts the off the street pilots to the right seat”

This is from another post. So if an arbitrator punted Captains to the right seat I’m sure, in this case, if wages get improved a rebid is happening. I don’t see the problem for the swoop pilots, your wages will definitely be higher long term? Or the union should pay protect them at the contract they signed when they took the job. And everyone else can make double or triple what they do?

[Spare007]

#1. There will be a rebid. Count on it. There is no jumping seniority no mater how you slice it. If you don’t like it. Well too bad. I stand with senior FO’s and Encore pilots who started long before these hired guns were even conceived.

#2. OTS hires are for lack of a better design, hired mercs. Did you think you are more valued than a 10 year FO who has shown value over 10 years of service? That’s insulting. I see it in your faces when you walk by. No need to talk that out. I don’t love or hate you. You know who and what you are and represent.

#3. These are the same characteristics of those who paid for their training in the 90’s to ‘jump ahead’ of others who advanced on their merit. Working for less than market value hurts the profession. We all know this. If no rebid, NO WAWCON PERIOD. TO BAD.

[Spare007]

#1. There will be a rebid. Count on it. There is no jumping seniority no mater how you slice it. If you don’t like it. Well too bad. I stand with senior FO’s and Encore pilots who started long before these hired guns were even conceived.

#2. OTS hires are for lack of a better design, hired mercs. Did you think you are more valued than a 10 year FO who has shown value over 10 years of service? That’s insulting. I see it in your faces when you walk by. No need to talk that out. I don’t love or hate you. You know who and what you are and represent.

#3. These are the same characteristics of those who paid for their training in the 90’s to ‘jump ahead’ of others who advanced on their merit. Working for less than market value hurts the profession. We all know this. If no rebid, NO WAWCON PERIOD. TO BAD.

[cloak]

… first just because the current CBA doesn't have language for a rebid doesn't mean that the incoming CBA won't.

A base closure and opening will trigger a rebid, so the company solves everyone's problems by closing Swoop YEG opening Swoop YXX, if they open a WestJet YEG at the same even better. The rumored timeline for base decisions just happens to coincide with the rumored completion time for CBA negotiations.

For base closure only those affected can bid into other positions, not a company wide open bid. Plus the company can just create new positions for those affected as it did for 787 pilots.

Big raises across the board, pay parity and YOS at Swoop, and a rebid are simply too many major cost items. The last time there was only one major cost:YOS which was balanced by lower pay at Swoop. The gains will likely be more balanced and no rebid, and for good reasons. Otherwise every time there is a change of guards there will be a major change for the “majority”. Be careful what you wish for. If it doesn’t exist in any other contract, it’s for good reasons, like the one list.

DFR case rarely succeed, because all the union has to show is they looked after the greatest number of members. So yes a few members from Swoop may be disadvantaged by a rebid but the union can argue that it benefits the membership as a whole because of the improved WACON (assuming matching WACON). If, ALPA eliminates the "B scale" at Swoop even if it triggers a rebid, it could be argued that that's a positive for Sunwing pilots to embrace ALPA because it means they'll fight to ensure that all groups get the best pay.

Talks of this rebid first started from a small group too. With chatter about upgrade time being around 2 years at Sunwing and around 10 years at WestJet, and suggestions about a rebid after a merger naturally Sunwing pilots grow concerned. Therefore, there is no point to these divisive discussions, to borrow from Peter to pay Paul, rather the focus should be on holding the company to its word on expansion and creating new positions so more pilots can bid into those positions.

[averageatbest]

For base closure only those affected can bid into other positions, not a company wide open bid. Plus the company can just create new positions for those affected as it did for 787 pilots.

WestJet CBA

7-9.02. In the event of a Position reduction at a Permanent Base that will only trigger a displacement, all
Pilots on the PSL shall be given at least thirty (30) Calendar Days to submit a PSB prior to the date of the
Reduction Bid release.

Encore CBA (Not relevant)

15-6 REDUCTION BIDS
15-6.01. Once a notice is sent to all Pilots that a reduction of Pilots or Base closure is required,
all Pilots on the PSL shall be required to submit a PSB per SECTION 15-4 - PREFERENTIAL
STANDING BID. Each Pilot will be required to fill all applicable slots of the PSB. The PSB for a
reduction/layoff shall run for not less than fifteen (15) days.
15-6.02. Once the PSB is complete, the awarded bids shall be posted to the Pilots within fourteen
(14) days, with the awards being forwarded to the awarded Pilots within seven (7) business day.

[CaptainHaddock]

Well, there is a WestJet YEG base now. Initial bid for 25 crews (filled) ramping up to 100. It was mostly a reshuffle though of positions, but did create about 10 more western CA spots in the end. The Swoop base is still there though somewhat diminished, and no YXX Swoop base so far. Currently any ‘Growth’ story seems to have been thwarted by not getting enough new FO’s and more importantly not keeping the ones we have-which should be (but appears not to be) a priority for management.
Keeping a well trained, experienced and type rated pilot that is already here is much better then trying to train/replace them in a shrinking experience pool. Dragging out the negots is not going to help them either, presenting a ‘new Swoop LOU2’ is like waving a red flag in front of a bull-incredible.

(Most junior YYC CA award is August 2010 now. Most Junior YYC FO award is January 2023)

[Canadaflyer46]

Well, there is a WestJet YEG base now. Initial bid for 25 crews (filled) ramping up to 100. It was mostly a reshuffle though of positions, but did create about 10 more western CA spots in the end. The Swoop base is still there though somewhat diminished, and no YXX Swoop base so far. Currently any ‘Growth’ story seems to have been thwarted by not getting enough new FO’s and more importantly not keeping the ones we have-which should be (but appears not to be) a priority for management.
Keeping a well trained, experienced and type rated pilot that is already here is much better then trying to train/replace them in a shrinking experience pool. Dragging out the negots is not going to help them either, presenting a ‘new Swoop LOU2’ is like waving a red flag in front of a bull-incredible.

(Most junior YYC CA award is August 2010 now. Most Junior YYC FO award is January 2023)

Couldn’t agree more. They need a good CA as much as we do, if they ever hope to crew their growth plans. Yet they are determined to fight the pilot group every step of the way. How many millions in lost bookings is this Summer going to cost them before they give an inch?