Fly Runway Heading
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
Fly Runway Heading
Wgat can happen if you fly the track instead of the heading.......
"N330AP, a Gulfstream G-200 departed from runway 06L at Toronto Lester B. Pearson
International Airport (CYYZ), ON, behind C-GMIW, a Boeing 737-800 (operating as Air Canada
418). N330AP exceeded a 250kt speed restriction by ATC, and flew the runway track instead of
the runway heading, causing a situation where separation was not assured with C-GMIW. The
ATC controller noticed the conflict and turned both aircraft, however by the time the aircraft turned,
separation was reduced to 1.7 NM and 300ft."
"N330AP, a Gulfstream G-200 departed from runway 06L at Toronto Lester B. Pearson
International Airport (CYYZ), ON, behind C-GMIW, a Boeing 737-800 (operating as Air Canada
418). N330AP exceeded a 250kt speed restriction by ATC, and flew the runway track instead of
the runway heading, causing a situation where separation was not assured with C-GMIW. The
ATC controller noticed the conflict and turned both aircraft, however by the time the aircraft turned,
separation was reduced to 1.7 NM and 300ft."
Re: Fly Runway Heading
Need more info. Gulfstream departs 06L after the 787 and causes a conflict because of flying runway track instead of heading??? So busting the 250 knot limit wasn't a more significant factor? Do we assume the 787 was told to fly runway track or heading? There can't be a significant difference to lateral separation unless there was a 100 knot crosswind on climb out. Or we have the unicorn of the first time heading vs track making a difference. Sounds more like a controller cockup covering his ass.
Re: Fly Runway Heading
The only time I've ever gotten in a bit of trouble with TC was for a similar occurrence.
Priorities I guess....
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-
- Rank 5
- Posts: 306
- Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:13 am
Re: Fly Runway Heading
So far there have been two aircraft types listed for the Air Canada flight, neither of which are true.
Toronto ATC is notorious for non-standard phraseology, so I wouldn't be surprised if that played a contributing factor.
Toronto ATC is notorious for non-standard phraseology, so I wouldn't be surprised if that played a contributing factor.
Re: Fly Runway Heading
Air Canada doing a noise abatement departure followed by the US-piloted G200 not doing any noise abatement procedure, maybe?
Track logs from FlightAware:
Air Canada 418 vs N330AP
Track logs from FlightAware:
Air Canada 418 vs N330AP
Have Pratts - Will Travel
Re: Fly Runway Heading
Flight 418, taking off on 6L would be heading in the correct direction (YUL), so unlikely to be doing NADP1. I am not sure what the initial target speed is after flap retraction on the 737, but on the 320, we would preselect green dot, and hold that until turned in the right direction/above noise abatement, etc. So in this case the 737 may have delayed acceleration to 250 until above 3600 (per noise abatement “no turns below”), while the G200 accelerated above 250 right away.
I read this more as a reminder why you are supposed to inform ATC when you are planning NADP1, (although they may have performed NADP2 in this case, the fast accelerating jet behind them put them in a similar predicament). The runway track vs heading is a red herring, and in fact probably increased lateral separation, rather than being exactly astern the preceding traffic, they were crabbed into wind.
I read this more as a reminder why you are supposed to inform ATC when you are planning NADP1, (although they may have performed NADP2 in this case, the fast accelerating jet behind them put them in a similar predicament). The runway track vs heading is a red herring, and in fact probably increased lateral separation, rather than being exactly astern the preceding traffic, they were crabbed into wind.
Re: Fly Runway Heading
I was thinking the same thing. The 737 likely followed noise and stayed at “up” speed, which is 225kts at max weight but in their case likely a lot slower assuming they weren’t departing heavy and the G200 went right to 250.NotDirty! wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:11 pm Flight 418, taking off on 6L would be heading in the correct direction (YUL), so unlikely to be doing NADP1. I am not sure what the initial target speed is after flap retraction on the 737, but on the 320, we would preselect green dot, and hold that until turned in the right direction/above noise abatement, etc. So in this case the 737 may have delayed acceleration to 250 until above 3600 (per noise abatement “no turns below”), while the G200 accelerated above 250 right away.
I read this more as a reminder why you are supposed to inform ATC when you are planning NADP1, (although they may have performed NADP2 in this case, the fast accelerating jet behind them put them in a similar predicament). The runway track vs heading is a red herring, and in fact probably increased lateral separation, rather than being exactly astern the preceding traffic, they were crabbed into wind.
-
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4562
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
- Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME
Re: Fly Runway Heading
I could see that being a factor, in my experience as a passenger it seems like AC does noise 1 frequently. So you'd have AC doing 210 ish to 3000', and the bizjet doing 300?Pratt X 3 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:48 pm Air Canada doing a noise abatement departure followed by the US-piloted G200 not doing any noise abatement procedure, maybe?
Track logs from FlightAware:
Air Canada 418 vs N330AP
Re: Fly Runway Heading
Can you say more?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Fly Runway Heading
“I wonder if he’s using the same wind we are using?”
Re: Fly Runway Heading
My experience has been that NADP1 is not used very frequently, except there was a restriction on the 319/320/321 fleet to only use noise 1 out of YVR… so if you’re basing your observations on YVR, your data is skewed.co-joe wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:29 pmI could see that being a factor, in my experience as a passenger it seems like AC does noise 1 frequently. So you'd have AC doing 210 ish to 3000', and the bizjet doing 300?Pratt X 3 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:48 pm Air Canada doing a noise abatement departure followed by the US-piloted G200 not doing any noise abatement procedure, maybe?
Track logs from FlightAware:
Air Canada 418 vs N330AP
Noise 1 would be V2+10 to 3000, so probably a whole lot slower than 210! NADP2 with thrust reduction and acceleration at 1000’ doesn’t specify how fast to accelerate to, so it is common to maintain best rate of climb speed (clean) until turning towards destination, or above noise restrictions… which could be in the 210-240 range on the narrowbodies.
-
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4562
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
- Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME
Re: Fly Runway Heading
That seems legit for sure. Obviously I'm not in the AC flight deck, but you sort of know when they don't retract at 1000' just having flown the same departures so many times.
Re: Fly Runway Heading
YEG TWR controller here.
Track is mostly for separation from arrivals and the departures, ensures that departures don’t drift into the downwind’s on the RNAV STARS. If an aircraft is unable an RNAV departure, assuming they inform us, we clear them to climb RWY Hdg and advise Terminal so they can ensure the arrivals wont interfere with that departure.
It would only be a problem dep/dep, for example, when the lead aircraft is flying RWY hdg and drifts off track, and then is required to turn into wind. This would reduce separation.
The unrestricted speed has to have been the problem.
Robshelle
Track is mostly for separation from arrivals and the departures, ensures that departures don’t drift into the downwind’s on the RNAV STARS. If an aircraft is unable an RNAV departure, assuming they inform us, we clear them to climb RWY Hdg and advise Terminal so they can ensure the arrivals wont interfere with that departure.
It would only be a problem dep/dep, for example, when the lead aircraft is flying RWY hdg and drifts off track, and then is required to turn into wind. This would reduce separation.
The unrestricted speed has to have been the problem.
Robshelle
Re: Fly Runway Heading
The only time I see heading vs track, is when we are departing an airport with parallels and a crosswind, eg YYC. Not uncommon there to be cleared a SID, but then have tower issue you a heading with the takeoff clearance.