Fly Runway Heading

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Fly Runway Heading

Post by pelmet »

Wgat can happen if you fly the track instead of the heading.......

"N330AP, a Gulfstream G-200 departed from runway 06L at Toronto Lester B. Pearson
International Airport (CYYZ), ON, behind C-GMIW, a Boeing 737-800 (operating as Air Canada
418). N330AP exceeded a 250kt speed restriction by ATC, and flew the runway track instead of
the runway heading, causing a situation where separation was not assured with C-GMIW. The
ATC controller noticed the conflict and turned both aircraft, however by the time the aircraft turned,
separation was reduced to 1.7 NM and 300ft."
---------- ADS -----------
 
karmutzen
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:40 pm

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by karmutzen »

Need more info. Gulfstream departs 06L after the 787 and causes a conflict because of flying runway track instead of heading??? So busting the 250 knot limit wasn't a more significant factor? Do we assume the 787 was told to fly runway track or heading? There can't be a significant difference to lateral separation unless there was a 100 knot crosswind on climb out. Or we have the unicorn of the first time heading vs track making a difference. Sounds more like a controller cockup covering his ass.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by digits_ »

karmutzen wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:50 pm Or we have the unicorn of the first time heading vs track making a difference. Sounds more like a controller cockup covering his ass.
The only time I've ever gotten in a bit of trouble with TC was for a similar occurrence.

Priorities I guess....
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
averageatbest
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:13 am

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by averageatbest »

So far there have been two aircraft types listed for the Air Canada flight, neither of which are true.

Toronto ATC is notorious for non-standard phraseology, so I wouldn't be surprised if that played a contributing factor.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Pratt X 3
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 842
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:19 pm

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by Pratt X 3 »

Air Canada doing a noise abatement departure followed by the US-piloted G200 not doing any noise abatement procedure, maybe?
Track logs from FlightAware:
Air Canada 418 vs N330AP
---------- ADS -----------
 
Have Pratts - Will Travel
NotDirty!
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 4:04 pm

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by NotDirty! »

Flight 418, taking off on 6L would be heading in the correct direction (YUL), so unlikely to be doing NADP1. I am not sure what the initial target speed is after flap retraction on the 737, but on the 320, we would preselect green dot, and hold that until turned in the right direction/above noise abatement, etc. So in this case the 737 may have delayed acceleration to 250 until above 3600 (per noise abatement “no turns below”), while the G200 accelerated above 250 right away.

I read this more as a reminder why you are supposed to inform ATC when you are planning NADP1, (although they may have performed NADP2 in this case, the fast accelerating jet behind them put them in a similar predicament). The runway track vs heading is a red herring, and in fact probably increased lateral separation, rather than being exactly astern the preceding traffic, they were crabbed into wind.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ant_321
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 849
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by ant_321 »

NotDirty! wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:11 pm Flight 418, taking off on 6L would be heading in the correct direction (YUL), so unlikely to be doing NADP1. I am not sure what the initial target speed is after flap retraction on the 737, but on the 320, we would preselect green dot, and hold that until turned in the right direction/above noise abatement, etc. So in this case the 737 may have delayed acceleration to 250 until above 3600 (per noise abatement “no turns below”), while the G200 accelerated above 250 right away.

I read this more as a reminder why you are supposed to inform ATC when you are planning NADP1, (although they may have performed NADP2 in this case, the fast accelerating jet behind them put them in a similar predicament). The runway track vs heading is a red herring, and in fact probably increased lateral separation, rather than being exactly astern the preceding traffic, they were crabbed into wind.
I was thinking the same thing. The 737 likely followed noise and stayed at “up” speed, which is 225kts at max weight but in their case likely a lot slower assuming they weren’t departing heavy and the G200 went right to 250.
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by co-joe »

Pratt X 3 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:48 pm Air Canada doing a noise abatement departure followed by the US-piloted G200 not doing any noise abatement procedure, maybe?
Track logs from FlightAware:
Air Canada 418 vs N330AP
I could see that being a factor, in my experience as a passenger it seems like AC does noise 1 frequently. So you'd have AC doing 210 ish to 3000', and the bizjet doing 300?
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm
karmutzen wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:50 pm Or we have the unicorn of the first time heading vs track making a difference. Sounds more like a controller cockup covering his ass.
The only time I've ever gotten in a bit of trouble with TC was for a similar occurrence.

Priorities I guess....
Can you say more?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
‘Bob’
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 704
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:19 am

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by ‘Bob’ »

“I wonder if he’s using the same wind we are using?”
---------- ADS -----------
 
TELL THOMPSON WE’RE COMIN’ IN HOT!!

http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/answer ... _FAQ_.html
NotDirty!
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 4:04 pm

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by NotDirty! »

co-joe wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:29 pm
Pratt X 3 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:48 pm Air Canada doing a noise abatement departure followed by the US-piloted G200 not doing any noise abatement procedure, maybe?
Track logs from FlightAware:
Air Canada 418 vs N330AP
I could see that being a factor, in my experience as a passenger it seems like AC does noise 1 frequently. So you'd have AC doing 210 ish to 3000', and the bizjet doing 300?
My experience has been that NADP1 is not used very frequently, except there was a restriction on the 319/320/321 fleet to only use noise 1 out of YVR… so if you’re basing your observations on YVR, your data is skewed.
Noise 1 would be V2+10 to 3000, so probably a whole lot slower than 210! NADP2 with thrust reduction and acceleration at 1000’ doesn’t specify how fast to accelerate to, so it is common to maintain best rate of climb speed (clean) until turning towards destination, or above noise restrictions… which could be in the 210-240 range on the narrowbodies.
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by co-joe »

That seems legit for sure. Obviously I'm not in the AC flight deck, but you sort of know when they don't retract at 1000' just having flown the same departures so many times.
---------- ADS -----------
 
robshelle
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:33 pm

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by robshelle »

YEG TWR controller here.
Track is mostly for separation from arrivals and the departures, ensures that departures don’t drift into the downwind’s on the RNAV STARS. If an aircraft is unable an RNAV departure, assuming they inform us, we clear them to climb RWY Hdg and advise Terminal so they can ensure the arrivals wont interfere with that departure.

It would only be a problem dep/dep, for example, when the lead aircraft is flying RWY hdg and drifts off track, and then is required to turn into wind. This would reduce separation.

The unrestricted speed has to have been the problem.

Robshelle
---------- ADS -----------
 
Donald
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2368
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34 am
Location: Canada

Re: Fly Runway Heading

Post by Donald »

The only time I see heading vs track, is when we are departing an airport with parallels and a crosswind, eg YYC. Not uncommon there to be cleared a SID, but then have tower issue you a heading with the takeoff clearance.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”