Tbayer2021 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:43 pm
You call it embarrassing, his supervisor calls it a "refreshing alternative". The Kool-Aid sure has done a number on so many pilots here in Canada.
"A professional that realizes that the health and profitability of the company is beneficial to their long-term prospects and compensation is a refreshing alternative to the posters who don't care at all and whose sole goal is to work as little and inefficiently as possible for the most money."- Flair's Chief pilot.
Pretty sure that is what Michel LeBlanc was telling everyone in groundschool at Jetsgo when he collected there up front cheques for training and than closed the business the next day.
Their is ways to ensure a companies survival, but cutting ones pay is not the answer. Not sure when pilots will realize that pilots are not the most expensive aspect of an airline.
Hell, management will cut your pay one day, and take a couple million bonus the next. Don't let any company tell you taking a pay cut is for the good of the company.
Likely one of the most embarrassing things I've ever read on this forum.
You call it embarrassing, his supervisor calls it a "refreshing alternative". The Kool-Aid sure has done a number on so many pilots here in Canada.
"A professional that realizes that the health and profitability of the company is beneficial to their long-term prospects and compensation is a refreshing alternative to the posters who don't care at all and whose sole goal is to work as little and inefficiently as possible for the most money."- Flair's Chief pilot.
I had a good chuckle at that statement too. Shouldn’t everyone’s goal be to work as little as possible for as much money as possible? The whole purpose of work is to make money to enjoy your life outside of work. I found it especially funny considering the CP spent a bunch of time in the sandbox. I’m pretty sure we can all agree he wasn’t there because he loved the 50 degree days in summer. It was to make as much money as possible.
co-joe wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:08 pm
When we did take a pay cut is at the bottom of Covid, we agreed to half time pay for half a block for a couple of months to save the company That felt highly honourable, and likely there wouldn't be a Flair sub forum here if we hadn't.
I love this guy!
Watching arguments that have been recycled from the past show up during a historical pilot shortage where this profession has never had more leverage...just priceless
Well thepoors, that’s a twat that seems genuinely happy with his job and employer, and doesn’t appear the least bit concerned with your myopic and illiterate opinion of how Flair pilots voted to conduct themselves. Pilots, it seems by they way of reports and conversations, who can now confidently look forward to a doubling of their fleet and numbers! So if sucking managements koolaid makes them happy, and they look forward to going to work at an outfit that lets them contribute (along with Lynx) to market share erosion from WS, etal, while offering consumers better value for their travel dollar…..let them. Your naivety is astounding. I wish those koolaid sucking twats well.
vrefplus5 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:04 am
Well thepoors, that’s a twat that seems genuinely happy with his job and employer, and doesn’t appear the least bit concerned with your myopic and illiterate opinion of how Flair pilots voted to conduct themselves. Pilots, it seems by they way of reports and conversations, who can now confidently look forward to a doubling of their fleet and numbers! So if sucking managements koolaid makes them happy, and they look forward to going to work at an outfit that lets them contribute (along with Lynx) to market share erosion from WS, etal, while offering consumers better value for their travel dollar…..let them. Your naivety is astounding. I wish those koolaid sucking twats well.
S-O-L-I-D-A-R-I-T-Y
It's more than a word.
The massive pay raises down south come from UNIONS that use collective strength to make pilots RICH
Following the rhetoric of Company A vs Company B makes MANAGERS rich
vrefplus5 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:04 am
Well thepoors, that’s a twat that seems genuinely happy with his job and employer, and doesn’t appear the least bit concerned with your myopic and illiterate opinion of how Flair pilots voted to conduct themselves. Pilots, it seems by they way of reports and conversations, who can now confidently look forward to a doubling of their fleet and numbers! So if sucking managements koolaid makes them happy, and they look forward to going to work at an outfit that lets them contribute (along with Lynx) to market share erosion from WS, etal, while offering consumers better value for their travel dollar…..let them. Your naivety is astounding. I wish those koolaid sucking twats well.
Those koolaid sucking twats had an amazing chance to raise the floor for everyone in this industry. They squandered a golden opportunity, which they will soon be regretting - look how quickly SWG matched the Flair payscale, rumours of WJ pay increasing 25-35%. Within a year Flair pilots will look like the suckers they are. Oh but don't worry this agreement is only for 3 years... Who's really naive?
That aside, co-joe is on here doing verbal gymnastics (when he's not making blatantly false statements) to advocate for this shit company and it's wawcon. He's a shill and an embarrassment to the profession. Too many of these idiots have sabotaged their colleagues for far too long. It needs to stop.
co-joe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:20 pm
The more your WestJet trolls come here to share your toxic culture with us, the more you reinforce that we are doing the right thing.
Cojoe you lost fool
It isn't us vs you
It's Industry vs the profession
They want you to think WJ/AC/Porter/Sunwing are the threat
No no
It's your managers trying to pay you as little as possible to make you work as much as possible under the guise as them doing this to "save the company" from evil WJ/AC/Porter/Sunwing
You are likely a lost soul and it will be too little too late for you but we don't need everyone. Even the US has company shills- "I can't keep believe they pay me to do this!"
co-joe, I'm not sure if you are one of the 3 MEC members or if you gunning for a management position. Your continuous muttering is bordering on disgusting. If you want to keep quoting Stephen Jones, why don't you focus on what we do vs what competetors do. Quit your perpetual shitting on industry colleagues.
You are not doing yourself, your co-workers, or the company any favours. Taking skin off of employees backs does nothing but cost the company turn over in the end and creates a toxic environment. Treat your employees and co workers with the respect that they deserve, treat the labour agreement with the respect that it deserves, treat the CARs/scheduling the respect that it deserves and drive towards a common goal. A pissed off pilot group can and will cost the company 10 fold.
Cost savings shall be borne in terms of tankering, kicking the APU off ASAP, single engine taxi out (when it comes), econ climbs, operating at optimum, short cuts, econ descents, idle reverse, minimal braking, single engine taxi in, operating with confidence and sound OPT, empowering culture for excellent customer service and relations. You know, things that excellent leadership can empower their subordinates with to excel towards a like minded goal. This is why wages are so important. To create and maintain an excellent culture for safety, balanced with cost savings. If the company is going to compensate you well enough to jump when they say jump. Then damn, they will jump! Do what the company pays you to do, and do it well. Create a positive work environment. Be a professional. Notice the last company email stating facts about cost savings with respect to tankering? These data points empower pilots and display empirical values on their efforts. I can't wait to see the next data point with regards to single engine taxi in.
Flight crew labour costs will vary between 3-12%. I honestly can't dial in the 705 level, but I can for certain tell you it is no where near 20%. It's challenging to dial in from a regular schleb perspective, as often times lots of balance sheets encompass cabin crew in the labor costs. The vast majority of other costs are non-negotiables or other day to day variables. That being said, labour costs ARE negotiables AND low hanging fruit, so from a company stand point, why not grasp away? Why not tug at strings and proclaim that potentially 3-12% of operating costs with make or break a company. Do you understand your disconnect now?
Flair Airlines has been confident in the early stages of expansion, bordering on cocky due to the fact that for every new plane comes 20 new crew training compliments free as per Boeing. Turn over is not a big issue with the net cost being significantly reduced due to this. We had a right place right time in terms of lease agreements. We had a right place right time to absorb the experience from trainers from the sandpit and Sunwing/the likes during furlough. The pit is still in the midst of recalling, so guaranteed there is more bleeding to come. There have been many pure dumb luck freebies available. I'm happy to have had the freebies as this will have a small impact on a successful kick at the can, but the business model is the meat and potatoes.
But be damned if investors think that labour costs will make or break a business concept. You don't actually think that the cost of labour wasn't considered during the basic business model, do you?
If the business model is sound, the business model is sound. There should be no hesitation with regards to labour costs. It's either a good concept or it is not. There is not one single investor out there, including 777 partners, that is willing to put money up front and bank it on a few co-joe-schmoes negotiating labour costs at the table every 3 years. Read as risking the business model every 3 years due labour.
The previous, current or next CBA has never, and will never be the demise of a company. Period.
At the end of the day, I must give credit where credit is due. Flight Ops management are doing their job, and they are very transparent. They are stating what they plan on doing, attempting to have it solidified in labour agreements, and are being very open and transparent. Kudos to them. They are doing a fantastic job on social media, professional media, and avcanada. They are trying to promote a positive workplace, while of course at the same time trying to nickel and dime. In my personal opinion they are doing an excellent job, they are transparent, and want to make Flair a career company. I'm happy with the company.
The MEC? Absolute opposite. Cutting down and demining your brethren. Implications of stupidity amongst the group. The dictatorship displayed as shut up and listen. You are a poor excuse for a local union. There is zero support from the union and you are nothing but 3 push overs. You sold out 2/3rds of your co-workers for shares, among every FO and junior pilot in terms of compensation and scheduling in order to pad your own pockets. If you had any respect for your co-workers all 3 of you would step down. Immediately. Once branded as ALPA you were instructed to have multiple committees in place within 2 weeks. It's the same 3 company men since inception. Is there a reason why committees have not been implemented as instructed? Rhetorical questions.
co-joe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:20 pm
The more your WestJet trolls come here to share your toxic culture with us, the more you reinforce that we are doing the right thing.
Haha who's the troll here?
Buddy you're the biggest company simp I've ever seen. Maybe if you lick those boots well enough tbaylx will let you crash in his van when this recession hits and Flair tosses you out on the street. Then again you'll probably find a way to spin that as a "necessary sacrifice" for the good of the company Then you can volunteer and toss some bags for them on the ramp, since you don't care about being paid for your work.
I don't often post on forums like this because I find the dribble that comes back is rarely worth it. I felt the desire to comment here because I just find the whole situation really sad.
People are throwing personal insults back and forth. It seems all the other pilot groups expected the Flair pilots to (help) improve conditions for an industry that has been broken since long before Flair ever existed. Why? Just because their contract was up for negotiation and they had a chance to send a message? I would bet that as soon as the next contract that comes up for WJ or AC the attention (and then the blame) will be directed there.
I applied to flair. Why? Because they are almost the only airline that pays a livable wage to start. You can paint it anyway you'd like, that is a cold hard fact. Should it be higher? ABSOLUTELY! Is it sad that they tried to disguise a 3% raise as a 9% raise while giving the captains a 20% raise disguising that as a 30% raise? BIGGER ABSOLUTELY!! But its still a livable wage, potential for a fast upgrade, and their choice of bases as well as home every night appeals more to me than others.
I left a misserable career that paid more money a few years ago in hopes that the pilot shortage would help improve wages and working conditions. I am in a unique position that I don't NEED to make lots of money right now but I do still want something stable and worth going to. I still wouldn't go back and change my decision knowing how sad the industry still is. I know people that work for Porter, Jazz, and Encore. Yes, they are flying Q400's not 737's but I wouldn't drive to Toronto from the West end every day for 45k per year even if I got to turn around and drive home when I got there nevermind fly for the whole day. Nor will I go up north and work for less than 40k hand flying a Metro into gravel strips in hopes of making it to the local greasy spoon before it closes. Sorry, but I will keep freelancing 10 minutes from home for about the same money and half the effort on my own schedule.
There are many reasons for the state of the industry. The companies taking advange of pilots wanting to fly and the pilots accepting the garbage treatment and wages is only part of the problem. The glutenous ATS system that is NAV canada, the joke that is TC, and dont get me started on the government because there aren't enough adjectives to describe them properly. I've talked to people who go out of their way to keep planes registered in the US. I have personally talked to people who got medicals in the mail from TC that were expired by the time they got them (and who were expected to pay TC for that service). CPL issuances in Canada is down to some 200 per year vs 800 just a few years ago and the carriers and the traveling public are wondering why??
My point... There are multiple reasons for this problem. Blaming Flair pilots is like blaming anyone who buys an iPhone for causing the child labour problem in China. It seems to me like this will only go one of three ways. Either the shortage will get big enough that the carriers will simply keep droping the requirments down to attract less qualified people and keep paying them garbage (that is, IF the insurance companies will allow it). They will start paying proper wages to attract proper talent and focus on trying to attract people to the profession for the long term (the later part is proactive thinking that these companies seem to lack). Or, the looming recession will put a big enough damper on air travel that they won't need to do A or B and things can continue they way they are for the forseeable future. They got saved from the pilot shortage in 2020 for a a couple years cause everything was banned. The insuing inflation caused the inevitable recession which might save them again. If people can't afford to travel, there wont be as big of a need for pilots.
I'm glad I have other skills, and a savings. I truly feel for people who are not as fortunate as I am. I will pick up my tool belt and keep wrecking my knees before moving up north to be a "Pilot in Waiting" after working so hard and spending 100k + on my license and years building time. Hell, I'd sell everything I have and walk to work at MaCdonalds. At least I would make as much as a Q400 pilot at Porter.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:12 pm
People are throwing personal insults back and forth. It seems all the other pilot groups expected the Flair pilots to (help) improve conditions for an industry that has been broken since long before Flair ever existed. Why? Just because their contract was up for negotiation and they had a chance to send a message?
In a word, yes. It's baffling why as a pilot group you wouldn't want to send this message with the current state of wages and the company's desperate need for more drivers.
Why would you want to work somewhere the prevailing attitude is "we're a ulcc, this is the best we're going to get". It's pathetic.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:12 pm
I applied to flair. Why? Because they are almost the only airline that pays a livable wage to start. You can paint it anyway you'd like, that is a cold hard fact. Should it be higher? ABSOLUTELY! Is it sad that they tried to disguise a 3% raise as a 9% raise while giving the captains a 20% raise disguising that as a 30% raise? BIGGER ABSOLUTELY!! But its still a livable wage, potential for a fast upgrade, and their choice of bases as well as home every night appeals more to me than others.
I left a misserable career that paid more money a few years ago in hopes that the pilot shortage would help improve wages and working conditions. I am in a unique position that I don't NEED to make lots of money right now but I do still want something stable and worth going to.
Very debatable what constitutes a "living wage", especially depending where you live. Easy to say that when you're also saying you don't need the money... Someone with kids and a mortgage probably has a very different opinion of that wage.
You're also missing the point: why are you settling for a "living wage"? You have a specialized skill set and the massive responsibility of operating a hundred million dollar aircraft with 200 lives in the back. If you think 73k/yr is fair compensation for that, you need to seriously re-examine your self worth.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:12 pm
Either the shortage will get big enough that the carriers will simply keep droping the requirments down to attract less qualified people and keep paying them garbage (that is, IF the insurance companies will allow it).
Yes that's exactly what they will keep doing if you keep bending over for them. Management (and losers like co-joe) will keep feeding you shit and calling it caviar. That's why it was so important to set a precedent - you failed miserably, and all I can say now is good luck.
khedrei wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:12 pm
I don't often post on forums like this because I find the dribble that comes back is rarely worth it.
Thank you for the reminder thepoors. This is certainly one of those "shame on me" moments. How could I have been so stupid? Hopefully one day I will learn.
co-joe wrote: ↑Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:08 pm
When we did take a pay cut is at the bottom of Covid, we agreed to half time pay for half a block for a couple of months to save the company That felt highly honourable, and likely there wouldn't be a Flair sub forum here if we hadn't.
Likely one of the most embarrassing things I've ever read on this forum.
Pretty interesting considering WestJet pilots did the exact same thing.
The pilots had already made sacrifices to help the company survive during the pandemic, including agreeing to massive pay cuts.
We took a 50% MMG and stayed at home getting paid for free for 2 months, but you took a "massive pay cut" according to ALPA. I think you're the one who should be embarrassed.
Here is the reason you should have fixed f/o rates when you had the chance. There is now a cadet program. How long will those guys PAY the airline to work for them while they are stuck on the crappy f/o scale.
Shame on the people who said "this is only a three year deal", "people upgrade immediately so you will never have to progress through it" . Those people are the ones who look at WestJet and Air Canada and say a disservice has been done to junior pilots, what this contract now does is even worse. Hubris would be nice to say ooops we dropped the ball. If not than a strong " I don't care about junior people, this was good for me". That's the stupid selfish crap dragging Canadian pilots down.
Then you can volunteer and toss some bags for them on the ramp, since you don't care about being paid for your work.
