Announced routes

[Crewbunk]

From what I understand they got a pretty good deal on the E2s. Also, sold them to a few leasing companies for a small profit then leased them back right away. Which I believe is termed appropriately a leaseback


Again, I have zero idea as to what exactly was written in that deal, but I do believe that they are making sound business decisions and cost per mile for the E2 is wayyyyy better than mostly everything other than the 220.

Yes, that is what Porter did; sold some of the purchased E2-195s and are now leasing them back. They did the same thing with the terminal at YTZ. It’s not a good sign. It’s indicative of “burning the furniture to heat the house”. The long term for such an endeavour is rarely better.

They sold the YTZ terminal for about $550M and are leasing it back for $54M a year. It burned them during the Covid shutdown, as their recently lost court case requires they pay back the $100M+ accrued for rent/slots even though it wasn’t used.

The cost per mile of the 195 is good, but not “wayyyyyy” better. But …. that is per airplane mile, not seat mile. The best seat mile costs for a 4-5 hour flight are the Max8 (189 seats) and the A321 (200 seats). The 189 seat 737-800 is still worthy of mention, and still better than an E2-195.

[fish4life]

Don’t underestimate the most important part of having a union in place… SCOPE

Sure there is a pilot shortage today but let’s say we hit a bad recession and suddenly there is a surplus of pilots. Porter could open a YYC and yvr base and call it west porter but pay the E2 drivers 10% less and you can’t do anything about it. L

Look at the westjet pilots they found out the hard way with the company creating swoop before they had it in their contract

[co-joe]

Porter pays less than everyone, except maybe Swoop. How are they possibly going to crew 50 jets?

Their issue isn't crewing 50 jets, it's crewing the Q400's after all those pilots move onto the jets. That's why opening western pilot bases won't help them. They need the Jet carrot dangle to somehow bring qualified pilots who will work for peanuts in YTZ. Hiring ots jet pilots in the west where they don't have any turboprops won't help that at all.

[vanislepilot]

Porter pays less than everyone, except maybe Swoop. How are they possibly going to crew 50 jets?

Their issue isn't crewing 50 jets, it's crewing the Q400's after all those pilots move onto the jets. That's why opening western pilot bases won't help them. They need the Jet carrot dangle to somehow bring qualified pilots who will work for peanuts in YTZ. Hiring ots jet pilots in the west where they don't have any turboprops won't help that at all.

Oh boy they already have worked on keeping the crew on those jets. Everyone hired on the dash 8 at porter after 2022 has been subjected to a 2 year fleet lock from date of hire. This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.

[C-GGGQ]

It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?

[vanislepilot]

It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?

2 years that can be waived for operational requirements. This would have been fine if it was addressed properly. A lot of pilots were awarded the jet, given groundschool dates, planned their lives accordingly. THEN the company turned around and cancelled their groundschools stating a shortage of q pilots less than 30 days before some pilots GS (A shortage that can very easily be fixed imo) and slapping them with a 2 year Q lock.
With a lot of jet fo positions readily available at other companies this was a piss poor move.

[co-joe]

Oh boy they already have worked on keeping the crew on those jets. Everyone hired on the dash 8 at porter after 2022 has been subjected to a 2 year fleet lock from date of hire. This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.

Nothing motivates people to leave more than a glass ceiling. Look at Encore and Jazz right now, they're leaving in droves because the carrot dangle got moldy or went away.

[braaap Braap]

...This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.

Because overall I think Porter's pilot group is quite anemic. Half have been here for a long time and are happy. The other half are brand new and for many of them it's their first exposure to 705 and don't want to rock the boat too much.

I agree the move was greasy. Infuriating how it was promised that it wasn't a lock in the Oct call "because it's an initial award not a transition" and then yanked the award. Only way to push back is go somewhere else or find better representation.

[ReducedSeparation]

It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?

2 years that can be waived for operational requirements. This would have been fine if it was addressed properly. A lot of pilots were awarded the jet, given groundschool dates, planned their lives accordingly. THEN the company turned around and cancelled their groundschools stating a shortage of q pilots less than 30 days before some pilots GS (A shortage that can very easily be fixed imo) and slapping them with a 2 year Q lock.
With a lot of jet fo positions readily available at other companies this was a piss poor move.

And don’t forget that all of those pilots who were awarded the E2 then had it taken away a week later had their resumes out for other carriers the very next day.

[carnie]

I understand their frustration/anger re having their offer rescinded but common man, most of those folks had been at the company all of 7/8 months tops. A wee bit of entitlement no? I guess voice your anger with your feet if you are that pissed.

[C-GGGQ]

As Understand it those people knew they were frozen for two years but the bid system did not have them blocked out yet. When it was found out none of these people were eligible for the bid they were taken off.

[CaptDukeNukem]

As Understand it those people knew they were frozen for two years but the bid system did not have them blocked out yet. When it was found out none of these people were eligible for the bid they were taken off.

This is also what I’ve heard. They locked in 2 years on the Q. Weren’t eligible for the switch.

[vanislepilot]

I understand their frustration/anger re having their offer rescinded but common man, most of those folks had been at the company all of 7/8 months tops. A wee bit of entitlement no? I guess voice your anger with your feet if you are that pissed.

Would you call a new 22 year old tech grad in SFO who turned down an 200k salary entitled because they felt like they could make more?

Also 7-8 months is exactly 7-8 months longer than anyone who joins the E2 fleet from outside the company today. Are the outside hires entitled because they want to fly the jet even though they may have less experience than many on the Q400?

Pilots are worth more today than ever before. If someone doesn't like were they are at the moment, they have the ability to move to another place fairly seamlessly.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I don’t think they are hiring outside personnel onto the jet that has less experience than porter’s own Q400 guys. I might be wrong….

Outside hires are required specifically because of experience. Most DECs have loads of jet pic or a recently stamped jazz E1 sticker. As far as hiring outside FOs, probably if they have a type rating or other jet experience.

Also, stating the obvious here, but a jet behaves rather differently than turboprops, and a mix of experience gives the best results to a company who is bringing in an airplane that no one in North America has flown.

And this whole type lock thing, yes some people that are stuck on the Q might have to wait 18 months to get onto the jet making less money while waiting but they will parachute nicely onto the seniority list when they do.

[carnie]

Not to generalize here but 90% of those hired in the last year are flight instructors with little to no 705 operational experience. As I previously stated if they are that bent out of shape they can bounce and work elsewhere.

[Timetoflyagain]

Not to generalize here but 90% of those hired in the last year are flight instructors with little to no 705 operational experience. As I previously stated if they are that bent out of shape they can bounce and work elsewhere.

..they have no 703 let alone 705 experience! The entitlement dripping and expectation of a quick left seat is sometimes laughable. Every pilot, based on DOH does have a reserved Captains slot once their number comes up AND they pass the upgrade…and that’s where it falls apart if they aren’t paying attention, studying, challenging themselves to make decisions when they can use the opportunity to learn and grow. Some moan about having to still live at home with their parents because they can’t afford to buy a house yet..all because the privilege of renting a crusty room in Pickle, Prince George, Yellowknife, Goose etc while they work the ramp waiting for a right seat in a clapped out, duct taped Navajo which they might not get anyway isn’t even a thought. Are they lucky to be where they are..absolutely. Do they know it? Too few do.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Not to generalize here but 90% of those hired in the last year are flight instructors with little to no 705 operational experience. As I previously stated if they are that bent out of shape they can bounce and work elsewhere.

..they have no 703 let alone 705 experience! The entitlement dripping and expectation of a quick left seat is sometimes laughable. Every pilot, based on DOH does have a reserved Captains slot once their number comes up AND they pass the upgrade…and that’s where it falls apart if they aren’t paying attention, studying, challenging themselves to make decisions when they can use the opportunity to learn and grow. Some moan about having to still live at home with their parents because they can’t afford to buy a house yet..all because the privilege of renting a crusty room in Pickle, Prince George, Yellowknife, Goose etc while they work the ramp waiting for a right seat in a clapped out, duct taped Navajo which they might not get anyway isn’t even a thought. Are they lucky to be where they are..absolutely. Do they know it? Too few do.

Amen. When I worked the ramp at TransWest once way back when… the captain of the single otter invited me to fly with him. Sounded amazing, so I did. Little did I know, he brought me there to pump the skis up and down and unload a shit ton of 2 by 4s. What a great lesson that was. And not the flying kind…. Although I did get some great straight and level experience out of it.

[itaserb]

Not to generalize here but 90% of those hired in the last year are flight instructors with little to no 705 operational experience. As I previously stated if they are that bent out of shape they can bounce and work elsewhere.

..they have no 703 let alone 705 experience! The entitlement dripping and expectation of a quick left seat is sometimes laughable. Every pilot, based on DOH does have a reserved Captains slot once their number comes up AND they pass the upgrade…and that’s where it falls apart if they aren’t paying attention, studying, challenging themselves to make decisions when they can use the opportunity to learn and grow. Some moan about having to still live at home with their parents because they can’t afford to buy a house yet..all because the privilege of renting a crusty room in Pickle, Prince George, Yellowknife, Goose etc while they work the ramp waiting for a right seat in a clapped out, duct taped Navajo which they might not get anyway isn’t even a thought. Are they lucky to be where they are..absolutely. Do they know it? Too few do.

You're such a funny guy. So you think that FO who is making 43K in one of the most expensive cities in the world is lucky to be part of a "unique company" with raccoon logo? I don't care what management tells me about the uniqueness of the company, but I do care about feeding my family. However making that 150-200$/day of training premiums and being in the top 50 seniority are reasons why you're happy with how Porter treats their FOs.

[PRM1]

It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?

2 years that can be waived for operational requirements. This would have been fine if it was addressed properly. A lot of pilots were awarded the jet, given groundschool dates, planned their lives accordingly. THEN the company turned around and cancelled their groundschools stating a shortage of q pilots less than 30 days before some pilots GS (A shortage that can very easily be fixed imo) and slapping them with a 2 year Q lock.
With a lot of jet fo positions readily available at other companies this was a piss poor move.

Those pilots signed a contract when they accepted employment at Porter that very clearly laid out the 2 year fleet lock. The fact that they thought they could annul a contract with a bid is laughable.

[8895]

It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?

2 years that can be waived for operational requirements. This would have been fine if it was addressed properly. A lot of pilots were awarded the jet, given groundschool dates, planned their lives accordingly. THEN the company turned around and cancelled their groundschools stating a shortage of q pilots less than 30 days before some pilots GS (A shortage that can very easily be fixed imo) and slapping them with a 2 year Q lock.
With a lot of jet fo positions readily available at other companies this was a piss poor move.

Those pilots signed a contract when they accepted employment at Porter that very clearly laid out the 2 year fleet lock. The fact that they thought they could annul a contract with a bid is laughable.

To be fair to those pilots, it wasn’t really laughable, because months ago during the monthly pilot “town hall” virtual meeting management was straight up asked “can us new hires bid for a jet position or are we fleet locked for 2 years” and managements response was “yes you can, that 2 year fleet lock refers to when you make a change within the company, not where you are initially”. A tad confusing isn’t it?? Especially when the company is going based off the offer letters that were sent out but then seemingly contradict it. Plus they didn’t bother putting any language in the FOAG as the only mention of fleet lock is as previously mentioned, when CHANGING equipment.

What’s really laughable is how the company used to advertise walking to work as a way of attracting pilots but then gave the poor FO’s a pay DECREASE coming out of the pandemic with an ever increasing COL crisis.

Seeing the obvious boomers post and hating on the newer pilots and their “entitlement” is also laughable at this point. Sure more and more of them are skipping the shitty northern op start of their career that many have experienced before moving down south for a job, but when 100k is the new 50k AND they’re having to be based out of the most overpriced cities on earth, I fail to see how that’s lucky. If you look at the numbers, Q FO’s should literally be making Q captain salaries just to afford rent in the city.

[carnie]

While I think we can all recognize 43k is a garbage wage to start, that was the wage advertised when you signed up for the gig. Itaserb, let's not make this personal. You cast some inaccurate accusations/statements that are unfounded and incorrect. Slow your roll dude.

[digits_]

Not to generalize here but 90% of those hired in the last year are flight instructors with little to no 705 operational experience. As I previously stated if they are that bent out of shape they can bounce and work elsewhere.

..they have no 703 let alone 705 experience! The entitlement dripping and expectation of a quick left seat is sometimes laughable. Every pilot, based on DOH does have a reserved Captains slot once their number comes up AND they pass the upgrade…and that’s where it falls apart if they aren’t paying attention, studying, challenging themselves to make decisions when they can use the opportunity to learn and grow. Some moan about having to still live at home with their parents because they can’t afford to buy a house yet..all because the privilege of renting a crusty room in Pickle, Prince George, Yellowknife, Goose etc while they work the ramp waiting for a right seat in a clapped out, duct taped Navajo which they might not get anyway isn’t even a thought. Are they lucky to be where they are..absolutely. Do they know it? Too few do.

What are you suggesting? That they go North and rent a crusty room in Pickle or Prince George, then come back to Porter and complain about the wages? How would that improve the situation? Does Porter pay more for super experienced Navajo acing pilots vs inexperienced FOs...?

Do you think it's normal a full time working human being can't afford a house?

Is anyone making 43k in Toronto *really* lucky?

[vanislepilot]

While I think we can all recognize 43k is a garbage wage to start, that was the wage advertised when you signed up for the gig. Itaserb, let's not make this personal. You cast some inaccurate accusations/statements that are unfounded and incorrect. Slow your roll dude.

Absolutely nothing he said was inaccurate. This is just reality with new FOs. You fly with a senior training captain who just LOVES to talk about how much they sacrificed to work in the north and passively tell you how that makes them better. Then proceed to whine about how they need to get their boat cleaned. While new FOs are literally cutting their lunch meat in half so they can make groceries last longer. Yeah they knew the what the wage was signing up, so they obviously want more. But they are consistently called entitled by so many people on this forum.

[vanislepilot]

Not to generalize here but 90% of those hired in the last year are flight instructors with little to no 705 operational experience. As I previously stated if they are that bent out of shape they can bounce and work elsewhere.

..they have no 703 let alone 705 experience! The entitlement dripping and expectation of a quick left seat is sometimes laughable. Every pilot, based on DOH does have a reserved Captains slot once their number comes up AND they pass the upgrade…and that’s where it falls apart if they aren’t paying attention, studying, challenging themselves to make decisions when they can use the opportunity to learn and grow. Some moan about having to still live at home with their parents because they can’t afford to buy a house yet..all because the privilege of renting a crusty room in Pickle, Prince George, Yellowknife, Goose etc while they work the ramp waiting for a right seat in a clapped out, duct taped Navajo which they might not get anyway isn’t even a thought. Are they lucky to be where they are..absolutely. Do they know it? Too few do.

What are you suggesting? That they go North and rent a crusty room in Pickle or Prince George, then come back to Porter and complain about the wages? How would that improve the situation? Does Porter pay more for super experienced Navajo acing pilots vs inexperienced FOs...?

Do you think it's normal a full time working human being can't afford a house?

Is anyone making 43k in Toronto *really* lucky?

Lol, you cant have 2 normal full time working human beings barely be able to afford a 1 bedroom in Toronto, let alone a house. Something a lot of these guys can't get a grip on because it worked for them 15 years ago.

[twa22]

While I think we can all recognize 43k is a garbage wage to start, that was the wage advertised when you signed up for the gig. Itaserb, let's not make this personal. You cast some inaccurate accusations/statements that are unfounded and incorrect. Slow your roll dude.

Just because that's the advertised wage and someone accepts it, it doesn't make it right... If I have 1500 hours, and company X calls me for a job and hires me, I will take that job, because well, i'd rather have a job then have zero salary... at 1500 hours, rather then sticking it out up north, some prefer to leave their current job (even if they're making more money) to be in the city, or for career progression

but, this is the vicious cycle we run into, where the employer knows they can pay shit and they will still get candidates... just look at every other airline thread

Porter threads have been quiet, but it's not because it's such a fantastic place to work at, to me it seems there haven't been many pilots on here that have been very vocal, but i'm sure that's about to change, and it should, porter pilots should complain and they should step up like everyone else and challenge the current status quo... wages will have to go up across the board everywhere within the next 1 to 2 years, 43k a year is just embarrassing