Negotiations

[Malfunction]

I have worked at 4 diffrent aviation companies in my 10years in aviation and I have never seen moral so low as it is a Jazz right now. We are loosing pilots left and right and I don't blame them. Pay sucks for left and right seat. AC treats us like second class citizens. Our own company won't budge on pay increases instead there hell bent on self destruction. I myself thought I was going to be a lifer at Jazz but I am in the process of Applying elsewhere.

[tango308]

They can't force anyone to take a temp base. So if no one applies, they will be forced to DH people around the country.

"I am an army of one, or two, or three hundred."

Go read your contract.

[truedude]

They can't force anyone to take a temp base. So if no one applies, they will be forced to DH people around the country.

"I am an army of one, or two, or three hundred."

Go read your contract.

Someone already corrected me. But thanks for keeping up.

[truedude]

I have worked at 4 diffrent aviation companies in my 10years in aviation and I have never seen moral so low as it is a Jazz right now. We are loosing pilots left and right and I don't blame them. Pay sucks for left and right seat. AC treats us like second class citizens. Our own company won't budge on pay increases instead there hell bent on self destruction. I myself thought I was going to be a lifer at Jazz but I am in the process of Applying elsewhere.

I have been in this industry twenty years, and Jazz for over a decade, and I am also cleaning up my resume and logbook. It seems the writing is on the wall as far as jazz is concerned.

I have never in my life seen a company so hell bent on self destruction as this one. The training pilot pool continues to shrink, a product of retirements and resignations/just fed up. LTC pilots are starting to quit, all making it difficult to even bring people online.

People are quiting groudnschools before they even start, quiting halfway through training, or soon after. People leaving for everywhere, whom had never intended on leaving. All while management, or Air Canada, or whomever is in charge of this dumpster fire, have their heads planted firmly up their ass.

I suspect we are mere months away from being unable to meet the CPA obligations, and a few more away from outright collapse.

And all because of what... the idea of paying pilots more is somehow the more unpleasant scenario than the company complelty collapsing. Truly shocking.

Just mind numbing stupidity at so many levels.

[Kosiw]

I guess the moral of this story is to never play for the "B" team.

[truedude]

I guess the moral of this story is to never play for the "B" team.

How is Jazz the B team? Air Canada needs us the same as we need them. In 2010 we were told if we went in strike, AC would be in bankruptcy inside a week.

Is Horizon a B team? Skywest? Because they all make more than all regional pilots in Canada, and more than a good portion of Air Canada pilots.

In the end, it comes down to supply and demand. And Canadian aviation companies need to realize it is less about shaving pennies off the margins, but rather keeping airplanes in the air. Those that can keep flying will succeed. Those that can't will go broke.

[Inverted2]

The American ‘B’ teams like Republic, Skywest etc make more than most AC pilots excluding the wide body captains.

[Malfunction]

Anyone who compares Canada to Us argument is null- invoid...
Unless the boarder opens up. Until then it's pointless and a waste of time.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Anyone who compares Canada to Us argument is null- invoid...
Unless the boarder opens up. Until then it's pointless and a waste of time.

What we need in Canada is min 1500 hrs requirement to fly a 705 aircraft. That will fix things really quickly (with pay). Every pilot in Canada needs at least a 30% pay increase to cope with the absurd inflation and inhumane cost of housing.

Even "The People's Democratic Republic of Kanadistan - Central News Agency" (aka the CBC) is sounding the alarm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwteV2A1DcY

[truedude]

Anyone who compares Canada to Us argument is null- invoid...
Unless the boarder opens up. Until then it's pointless and a waste of time.

6 months ago that may have been true. But when Encore and Jazz are shrinking due to a lack of crew, then it is comparable. And anyone pretending it isn't, particularly management, will be shocked when they start parking planes later this year. Encore will be at 20 fins by the end of the year.

When AC sees people leaving PIT courses for other jobs, then it is comparable.

Times are changing, and those that don't keep up will be left behind.

[Malfunction]

How is the Australian job market? Have wages shot up there drastically? They acctually have a visas to operate in the US.

[Malfunction]

Anyone who compares Canada to Us argument is null- invoid...
Unless the boarder opens up. Until then it's pointless and a waste of time.

6 months ago that may have been true. But when Encore and Jazz are shrinking due to a lack of crew, then it is comparable. And anyone pretending it isn't, particularly management, will be shocked when they start parking planes later this year. Encore will be at 20 fins by the end of the year.

When AC sees people leaving PIT courses for other jobs, then it is comparable.

Times are changing, and those that don't keep up will be left behind.

You assume this isn't to plan. You also assume WJ and AC care

[RoAF-Mig21]

How is the Australian job market? Have wages shot up there drastically? They acctually have a visas to operate in the US.

Qantaslink was paying Captains $120,000 AUD (starting pay) to fly the Dash 8 and Q400. This is back in 2018 when I went to one of their career fairs in Cairns. Not sure how that is now.

[truedude]

Anyone who compares Canada to Us argument is null- invoid...
Unless the boarder opens up. Until then it's pointless and a waste of time.

6 months ago that may have been true. But when Encore and Jazz are shrinking due to a lack of crew, then it is comparable. And anyone pretending it isn't, particularly management, will be shocked when they start parking planes later this year. Encore will be at 20 fins by the end of the year.

When AC sees people leaving PIT courses for other jobs, then it is comparable.

Times are changing, and those that don't keep up will be left behind.

You assume this isn't to plan. You also assume WJ and AC care

It is clear they have decided to sacrifice routes and capacity vs pay pilots more money. It is an intentional plan to keep pilot pay low in Canada. And it appears to be coordinated. It will likely drive them both into bankruptcy. It is incredibly short term thinking, and will only see further pain later on.

[rudder]

It is clear they have decided to sacrifice routes and capacity vs pay pilots more money. It is an intentional plan to keep pilot pay low in Canada. And it appears to be coordinated. It will likely drive them both into bankruptcy. It is incredibly short term thinking, and will only see further pain later on.

AC is not going bankrupt.

[rudder]

Anyone who compares Canada to Us argument is null- invoid...
Unless the boarder opens up. Until then it's pointless and a waste of time.

Actually, Canada and the US are closer to the same place than you think.

There are more job openings than qualified commercial pilots in Canada as of January 2023. Low bidder will have under utilized airframes and will need to adjust their commercial plan.

No bucks - no Buck Rodgers.

[kiaszceski]

It is clear they have decided to sacrifice routes and capacity vs pay pilots more money. It is an intentional plan to keep pilot pay low in Canada. And it appears to be coordinated. It will likely drive them both into bankruptcy. It is incredibly short term thinking, and will only see further pain later on.

AC is not going bankrupt.

Will we see Jazz being only Q4 and CRJ, then EMB transferred back to AC while shrinking Jazz? Would it make sense as it will be close to the 80 tails minimum by 2025?

[Malfunction]

I agree with you we are in a shortage. Supply and demand will pay out for us canadians eventually. But the current system is going to change or even break first. Who will be bankrupt who will shrink who will grow? No one can tell you that. But I can say is Jazz's current plan is to shrink so I assume AC is ok with parking planes because lack of crew if its temporary. The market is changing and getting more expensive to operate. People will start spending less, the current intrest rates havnt really priced in yet but once people start renewing there morgages at 6+ intrest rate extra spending cash will vanish. Lots of speculation here but just do the resurch yourself and come to your own answers. Air Canada obviously dosnt care about the contract and only follow it when it works for them. Your career is long be smart with your decisions.

[truedude]

It is clear they have decided to sacrifice routes and capacity vs pay pilots more money. It is an intentional plan to keep pilot pay low in Canada. And it appears to be coordinated. It will likely drive them both into bankruptcy. It is incredibly short term thinking, and will only see further pain later on.

AC is not going bankrupt.

I am sure they thought the same thing when Westjet showed up. They are giving up a lot of territory to Porter and Flair in their refusal to pay pilots more. That will have a huge long term impact on Canadian aviation.

[truedude]

I agree with you we are in a shortage. Supply and demand will pay out for us canadians eventually. But the current system is going to change or even break first. Who will be bankrupt who will shrink who will grow? No one can tell you that. But I can say is Jazz's current plan is to shrink so I assume AC is ok with parking planes because lack of crew if its temporary. The market is changing and getting more expensive to operate. People will start spending less, the current intrest rates havnt really priced in yet but once people start renewing there morgages at 6+ intrest rate extra spending cash will vanish. Lots of speculation here but just do the resurch yourself and come to your own answers. Air Canada obviously dosnt care about the contract and only follow it when it works for them. Your career is long be smart with your decisions.

Market is changing, and people will feel some pain. But walk into any restaurant, and they are packed. Also, the baby boomers are largely retired, and presided over the greatest accumulation of wealth in the history of the planet. They will still spend and take vacations. It will likely be a shallow recession, if we tip into one at all. And with China opening, the world wide demand for pilots will be huge.

The thinking Air Canada and Westjet are using, is myopic. And in the mean time pilots only grow more bitter.

[rudder]

Will we see Jazz being only Q4 and CRJ, then EMB transferred back to AC while shrinking Jazz? Would it make sense as it will be close to the 80 tails minimum by 2025?

It is possible if not probable that Jazz will be at 80 airframes (or a larger fleet of underutilized airframes) prior to Dec 2025.

It is already happening in Jan 2023 with little indication of a trend reversal.

[cdnavater]

Anyone who compares Canada to Us argument is null- invoid...
Unless the boarder opens up. Until then it's pointless and a waste of time.

First, it’s null and void and is typically used for legal issues.
I think you meant the argument is invalid, which is also not correct
Do we(Canadians) operate into the US market and do they(Americans) operate into the Canadian market?
Obviously a rhetorical question, we do and that alone makes us comparable. Our companies enjoy a significant labour cost advantage and was always part of Air Canada’s plan to lure Americans through its hubs to points beyond.
The reason our shortage is taking so long to have its full effect is the 1500 hour rule.
Make no mistake, AC executives are well aware of the cost advantages and seem to be sacrificing domestic flying to preserve the trans border routes. They know they will have to pay eventually but are likely hoping for one of the big competitors south of us to buckle under the significant labour costs they are currently enjoying. Every day they delay the inevitable is another day of huge cost savings and they probably have someone analyzing the breaking point where they will have to act, likely scenario of a competitor failing and shoring up the supply of cheaper labour.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Not sure which plane gets parked first.I imagine probably the smaller CRJs…

I think the Q400 do good fast work and the EMB provide more of a “passenger experience” than walking from a door to a steep set of air stairs. There’s a lot of calculations at play.

[cdnavater]

Not sure which plane gets parked first.I imagine probably the smaller CRJs…

I think the Q400 do good fast work and the EMB provide more of a “passenger experience” than walking from a door to a steep set of air stairs. There’s a lot of calculations at play.

100%

[digits_]

I have worked at 4 diffrent aviation companies in my 10years in aviation and I have never seen moral so low as it is a Jazz right now. We are loosing pilots left and right and I don't blame them. Pay sucks for left and right seat. AC treats us like second class citizens. Our own company won't budge on pay increases instead there hell bent on self destruction. I myself thought I was going to be a lifer at Jazz but I am in the process of Applying elsewhere.

I have been in this industry twenty years, and Jazz for over a decade, and I am also cleaning up my resume and logbook. It seems the writing is on the wall as far as jazz is concerned.

I have never in my life seen a company so hell bent on self destruction as this one. The training pilot pool continues to shrink, a product of retirements and resignations/just fed up. LTC pilots are starting to quit, all making it difficult to even bring people online.

People are quiting groudnschools before they even start, quiting halfway through training, or soon after. People leaving for everywhere, whom had never intended on leaving. All while management, or Air Canada, or whomever is in charge of this dumpster fire, have their heads planted firmly up their ass.

I suspect we are mere months away from being unable to meet the CPA obligations, and a few more away from outright collapse.

And all because of what... the idea of paying pilots more is somehow the more unpleasant scenario than the company complelty collapsing. Truly shocking.

Just mind numbing stupidity at so many levels.

Increasing ticket prices by 20% to compensate for a 50% hike in fuel cost: not a problem.

Increasing ticket prices by 2% to give pilots a 30% wage increase: WE ARE DOOMED. WE CAN'T DO IT. WE WILL GO BROKE.