Negotiations

[RoAF-Mig21]

Maybe the airlines know something we don't. Is there a crisis looming worldwide?

Is NATO and Russia going to start shooting at each other? Will China invade Taiwan? Nothing is "too bonkers" to contemplate. If you asked me 10 years ago if I'd see a full blown war in Europe in 2020s I'd say you're nuts.

[truedude]

Maybe the airlines know something we don't. Is there a crisis looming worldwide?

Is NATO and Russia going to start shooting at each other? Will China invade Taiwan? Nothing is "too bonkers" to contemplate. If you asked me 10 years ago if I'd see a full blown war in Europe in 2020s I'd say you're nuts.

They don't know anything. They just see what is happening the states with pilot pay, and will do anything to avoid it here too.

[Rowdy]

It is clear they have decided to sacrifice routes and capacity vs pay pilots more money. It is an intentional plan to keep pilot pay low in Canada. And it appears to be coordinated. It will likely drive them both into bankruptcy. It is incredibly short term thinking, and will only see further pain later on.

AC is not going bankrupt.

Will we see Jazz being only Q4 and CRJ, then EMB transferred back to AC while shrinking Jazz? Would it make sense as it will be close to the 80 tails minimum by 2025?

Highly Unlikely. The 175 would be too costly at mainline for crews. The CRj 200's are gonna be gone. The Q is the backbone of the fleet with the classic being parked. I'd imagine you'll see something happen long before we park airplanes.

Someone said they'll just up gauge to the 220 and 320. Not likely. Can you put a 220 in Penticton? Smithers? send the 320 to terrace?

[Aspiredtofly]

I was offline for maybe 3 months. What's happening at jazz?

[CaptDukeNukem]

I was offline for maybe 3 months. What's happening at jazz?

Oh boy. You’re in for a doozie

[rudder]

It is clear they have decided to sacrifice routes and capacity vs pay pilots more money. It is an intentional plan to keep pilot pay low in Canada. And it appears to be coordinated. It will likely drive them both into bankruptcy. It is incredibly short term thinking, and will only see further pain later on.

AC is not going bankrupt.

I am sure they thought the same thing when Westjet showed up. They are giving up a lot of territory to Porter and Flair in their refusal to pay pilots more. That will have a huge long term impact on Canadian aviation.

Yes, AC is setting a low bar. Hopefully ACPA will deal with that in the round of collective bargaining that will begin this year.

But if you understand how solvency works (or more importantly - insolvency), AC is at virtually ZERO risk of insolvency based on its current balance sheet, free cash, unused credit lines, current and future capital expense obligations, and projected cash flow.

[truedude]

AC is not going bankrupt.

I am sure they thought the same thing when Westjet showed up. They are giving up a lot of territory to Porter and Flair in their refusal to pay pilots more. That will have a huge long term impact on Canadian aviation.

Yes, AC is setting a low bar. Hopefully ACPA will deal with that in the round of collective bargaining that will begin this year.

But if you understand how solvency works (or more importantly - insolvency), AC is at virtually ZERO risk of insolvency based on its current balance sheet, free cash, unused credit lines, current and future capital expense obligations, and projected cash flow.

Same was true in 1997 when Westjet had 3 airplanes... by 2003 things were different.

And you are correct, they are in no near term risk, but you keep giving away your backyard while taking out your ability to complete, doesn't take much to start hurting the bottom line.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I am sure they thought the same thing when Westjet showed up. They are giving up a lot of territory to Porter and Flair in their refusal to pay pilots more. That will have a huge long term impact on Canadian aviation.

Yes, AC is setting a low bar. Hopefully ACPA will deal with that in the round of collective bargaining that will begin this year.

But if you understand how solvency works (or more importantly - insolvency), AC is at virtually ZERO risk of insolvency based on its current balance sheet, free cash, unused credit lines, current and future capital expense obligations, and projected cash flow.

Same was true in 1997 when Westjet had 3 airplanes... by 2003 things were different.

And you are correct, they are in no near term risk, but you keep giving away your backyard while taking out your ability to complete, doesn't take much to start hurting the bottom line.

AC’s money comes from high end business travel and international routes. Pulling back a few small routes will affect them undoubtedly , but to a lesser degree than shutting down wide body work. It’s all strategic and we are merely pawns.

Who else is queueing up to tackle that market share in Canada? I guess people have options to travel south of border in order to cross the pond.

[truedude]

Yes, AC is setting a low bar. Hopefully ACPA will deal with that in the round of collective bargaining that will begin this year.

But if you understand how solvency works (or more importantly - insolvency), AC is at virtually ZERO risk of insolvency based on its current balance sheet, free cash, unused credit lines, current and future capital expense obligations, and projected cash flow.

Same was true in 1997 when Westjet had 3 airplanes... by 2003 things were different.

And you are correct, they are in no near term risk, but you keep giving away your backyard while taking out your ability to complete, doesn't take much to start hurting the bottom line.

AC’s money comes from high end business travel and international routes. Pulling back a few small routes will affect them undoubtedly , but to a lesser degree than shutting down wide body work. It’s all strategic and we are merely pawns.

Who else is queueing up to tackle that market share in Canada? I guess people have options to travel south of border in order to cross the pond.

If they paid properly, they wouldn't be shutting down any routes, and they would be starving the competition of pilots. Instead they are handing over the routes to the competition, while also giving them pilots to crew their airplanes. Brilliant business strategy.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Same was true in 1997 when Westjet had 3 airplanes... by 2003 things were different.

And you are correct, they are in no near term risk, but you keep giving away your backyard while taking out your ability to complete, doesn't take much to start hurting the bottom line.

AC’s money comes from high end business travel and international routes. Pulling back a few small routes will affect them undoubtedly , but to a lesser degree than shutting down wide body work. It’s all strategic and we are merely pawns.

Who else is queueing up to tackle that market share in Canada? I guess people have options to travel south of border in order to cross the pond.

If they paid properly, they wouldn't be shutting down any routes, and they would be starving the competition of pilots. Instead they are handing over the routes to the competition, while also giving them pilots to crew their airplanes. Brilliant business strategy.

I value your opinion…. But let’s be honest, AC has a spotted record with regards to the airlines it hires to do regional work. They shut down Georgian and sky mid contract. What’s stopping that happening with jazz and then starting up sky regional 2.0? they clearly are showing that they are happy breaking certain sections of the agreement.

Don’t forget EVAS used to do work for them too.

In AC’s eyes, there’s always a cheaper solution.

[truedude]

AC’s money comes from high end business travel and international routes. Pulling back a few small routes will affect them undoubtedly , but to a lesser degree than shutting down wide body work. It’s all strategic and we are merely pawns.

Who else is queueing up to tackle that market share in Canada? I guess people have options to travel south of border in order to cross the pond.

If they paid properly, they wouldn't be shutting down any routes, and they would be starving the competition of pilots. Instead they are handing over the routes to the competition, while also giving them pilots to crew their airplanes. Brilliant business strategy.

I value your opinion…. But let’s be honest, AC has a spotted record with regards to the airlines it hires to do regional work. They shut down Georgian and sky mid contract. What’s stopping that happening with jazz and then starting up sky regional 2.0? they clearly are showing that they are happy breaking certain sections of the agreement.

Don’t forget EVAS used to do work for them too.

In AC’s eyes, there’s always a cheaper solution.

And that new airline would be faced with the same problem as jazz. Hiring pilots. And in this case, there is federal law in place that would force whomever is taking the work, to take our contract and us too. They can't shut us down and simply transfer the work. They can shrink us to 80 and then give anything over that to someone new. But as before, they will need pilots.

[GIVCE!]

Can you imagine them starting up another whipsaw regional in this market? With DEC practically everywhere there is no perk as a new employee. Even with wages at par to Jazz the pool of applicants would be minimal to nonexistent imo. If they offer wage incentives at the new operation, hypothetically, why would not they just put that capital into Jazz and save the headache? Surely they could just pay the pilots what we deserve and we all move on happy…lol. Yeah right. I just don’t see the whipsaw model working this time…which begs the question…what are the other likely scenarios? How is this a win for AC? A few years of regrouping and consolidation of market share while operating a minimal regional feed is what I see. No raises for us at all. Sad, but true.
G

[CaptDukeNukem]

Can you imagine them starting up another whipsaw regional in this market? With DEC practically everywhere there is no perk as a new employee. Even with wages at par to Jazz the pool of applicants would be minimal to nonexistent imo. If they offer wage incentives at the new operation, hypothetically, why would not they just put that capital into Jazz and save the headache? Surely they could just pay the pilots what we deserve and we all move on happy…lol. Yeah right. I just don’t see the whipsaw model working this time…which begs the question…what are the other likely scenarios? How is this a win for AC? A few years of regrouping and consolidation of market share while operating a minimal regional feed is what I see. No raises for us at all. Sad, but true.
G

Yea I could. There’s always someone with less experience than you trying to take your seat for less money. Nature of the beast. Remember the days where people were saying “I’d work for free. That mentality still exists.

Also, the thing about starting up a new airline…especially regional, you cut down the scale. Ain’t no 12 year scale paid captain at a new regional.
It’s been done before, and it will happen again.

[CaptDukeNukem]

If they paid properly, they wouldn't be shutting down any routes, and they would be starving the competition of pilots. Instead they are handing over the routes to the competition, while also giving them pilots to crew their airplanes. Brilliant business strategy.

I value your opinion…. But let’s be honest, AC has a spotted record with regards to the airlines it hires to do regional work. They shut down Georgian and sky mid contract. What’s stopping that happening with jazz and then starting up sky regional 2.0? they clearly are showing that they are happy breaking certain sections of the agreement.

Don’t forget EVAS used to do work for them too.

In AC’s eyes, there’s always a cheaper solution.

And that new airline would be faced with the same problem as jazz. Hiring pilots. And in this case, there is federal law in place that would force whomever is taking the work, to take our contract and us too. They can't shut us down and simply transfer the work. They can shrink us to 80 and then give anything over that to someone new. But as before, they will need pilots.

Which law? Can you provide a reference? I’m actually curious to read this…

[rudder]

I value your opinion…. But let’s be honest, AC has a spotted record with regards to the airlines it hires to do regional work. They shut down Georgian and sky mid contract. What’s stopping that happening with jazz and then starting up sky regional 2.0? they clearly are showing that they are happy breaking certain sections of the agreement.

Don’t forget EVAS used to do work for them too.

In AC’s eyes, there’s always a cheaper solution.

And that new airline would be faced with the same problem as jazz. Hiring pilots. And in this case, there is federal law in place that would force whomever is taking the work, to take our contract and us too. They can't shut us down and simply transfer the work. They can shrink us to 80 and then give anything over that to someone new. But as before, they will need pilots.

Which law? Can you provide a reference? I’m actually curious to read this…

Successorship and/or Sale of a Business. It is a Federal statute. Basically the same reason that Jazz took the GGN and SKY pilots when they took over the work.

[swervin]

We will see what will happen soon enough. Four way meetings apparently scheduled between AC, JAZZ, ACPA and ALPA in the next couple of weeks...

[rudder]

We will see what will happen soon enough. Four way meetings apparently scheduled between AC, JAZZ, ACPA and ALPA in the next couple of weeks...

Finally…… hope that it is an adult conversation.

Employers will pay more. Unions will (hopefully) address mobility logistics.

Status quo will not work for anybody. But nobody can force change to CBA’s. All must be consensual.

This isn’t the first time that efforts like this have been made. However, if true it would be the first time that all four parties will be in the same room at the same time. I hope that the pilot ‘leaders’ will act like leaders. Fix this for both the pilots that are on the property(s) AND the ones that will be coming in the future. Do something to be proud of. Do something positive for the profession.

[CaptDukeNukem]

And that new airline would be faced with the same problem as jazz. Hiring pilots. And in this case, there is federal law in place that would force whomever is taking the work, to take our contract and us too. They can't shut us down and simply transfer the work. They can shrink us to 80 and then give anything over that to someone new. But as before, they will need pilots.

Which law? Can you provide a reference? I’m actually curious to read this…

Successorship and/or Sale of a Business. It is a Federal statute. Basically the same reason that Jazz took the GGN and SKY pilots when they took over the work.

Fair point. However…may I point out that sky regional and/or Georgian was never a sale or a merger. Those airlines just got their CPA taken away.

Jazz took the pilots cuz they were type rated and itching for jobs

[CaptDukeNukem]

We will see what will happen soon enough. Four way meetings apparently scheduled between AC, JAZZ, ACPA and ALPA in the next couple of weeks...

Finally…… hope that it is an adult conversation.

Employers will pay more. Unions will (hopefully) address mobility logistics.

Status quo will not work for anybody. But nobody can force change to CBA’s. All must be consensual.

This isn’t the first time that efforts like this have been made. However, if true it would be the first time that all four parties will be in the same room at the same time. I hope that the pilot ‘leaders’ will act like leaders. Fix this for both the pilots that are on the property(s) AND the ones that will be coming in the future. Do something to be proud of. Do something positive for the profession.

I’m with you here. I hope all four parties can come to a decent consensus

[JoeyBarton]

We will see what will happen soon enough. Four way meetings apparently scheduled between AC, JAZZ, ACPA and ALPA in the next couple of weeks...

Finally…… hope that it is an adult conversation.

Employers will pay more. Unions will (hopefully) address mobility logistics.

Status quo will not work for anybody. But nobody can force change to CBA’s. All must be consensual.

This isn’t the first time that efforts like this have been made. However, if true it would be the first time that all four parties will be in the same room at the same time. I hope that the pilot ‘leaders’ will act like leaders. Fix this for both the pilots that are on the property(s) AND the ones that will be coming in the future. Do something to be proud of. Do something positive for the profession.

I’m with you here. I hope all four parties can come to a decent consensus

The important element to consider will be that any change to the AC CBA this spring will require a vote on the ACPA side. We all know what the outcome was last fall. It would have to be significantly better in order to pass...Anything that does not include an immediate 20% raise at the very very very very LEAST has no chance of being ratified.

[truedude]

The important element to consider will be that any change to the AC CBA this spring will require a vote on the ACPA side. We all know what the outcome was last fall. It would have to be significantly better in order to pass...Anything that does not include an immediate 20% raise at the very very very very LEAST has no chance of being ratified.

That's the crux of the issue, isn't it? Is management prepared to accept the changing reality if the industry, and increase compensation appropriately.

[rudder]

Finally…… hope that it is an adult conversation.

Employers will pay more. Unions will (hopefully) address mobility logistics.

Status quo will not work for anybody. But nobody can force change to CBA’s. All must be consensual.

This isn’t the first time that efforts like this have been made. However, if true it would be the first time that all four parties will be in the same room at the same time. I hope that the pilot ‘leaders’ will act like leaders. Fix this for both the pilots that are on the property(s) AND the ones that will be coming in the future. Do something to be proud of. Do something positive for the profession.

I’m with you here. I hope all four parties can come to a decent consensus

The important element to consider will be that any change to the AC CBA this spring will require a vote on the ACPA side. We all know what the outcome was last fall. It would have to be significantly better in order to pass...Anything that does not include an immediate 20% raise at the very very very very LEAST has no chance of being ratified.

It isn’t a 20% across the board raise that is required. Yes, a mark-to-market adjustment is necessary but it should apply on a non-uniform basis.

It is closer to 50% for new-hires. New-hire pay should end after 1 year (probation). All FO rates calibrated to 66.67% of corresponding CA tenure pay rate.

Top scale CA (whether it is Jazz or a 777 skipper) don’t need the same degree of rate increase as other parts of their respective pilot demographic. That doesn’t mean that those rates should not be increased, it just means that the increases required are not one-size-fits-all.

Ultimately, rates need to be set to what is required to attract and retain well qualified pilots.the better the pay - the better the candidate resume.

[Fanblade]

We will see what will happen soon enough. Four way meetings apparently scheduled between AC, JAZZ, ACPA and ALPA in the next couple of weeks...

Are you sure this is legit?

Source?

[RoAF-Mig21]

We will see what will happen soon enough. Four way meetings apparently scheduled between AC, JAZZ, ACPA and ALPA in the next couple of weeks...

Are you sure this is legit?

Source?

Saw this from Reuters

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... 18bb39d8aa

[Fanblade]

We will see what will happen soon enough. Four way meetings apparently scheduled between AC, JAZZ, ACPA and ALPA in the next couple of weeks...

Are you sure this is legit?

Source?

Saw this from Reuters

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstor ... 18bb39d8aa

That is talking about ACPA negotiating a Union ( not pilot) merger with ALPA. That has been a slowly turning wheel since 2017. Got stuck in the mud for a bit but is now rolling again. Yes those meetings are on going.

It has nothing to do with Jazz or AC management though.