A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

[‘Bob’]

Photofly, with respect, the mentality we need isn't a redundant, circular, self-deprecating analysis of every reason why we could possibly be here, but rather a focus on getting the @#$! out of it.

Easy. Choke the supply.

The US did it with the 1500 hour rule. How many US CPLs quit before ever making it to 1500 and a regional interview for lack of jobs or lack of willingness to go through what it takes to get those hours? So many 250 hour wonders wondering if they can get a visa and come to Canada to get a job so they can get their 1500.

It’s not that the US pilots or unions are better negotiators. Or that their airlines value them more. It’s simply that there aren’t enough of them, that’s all. Simple fact.

So… reduce the Canadian supply of pilots. Quit. Refuse to work for such low wages. Actively discourage anyone from pursuing a flying career. Lobby and campaign for legislation to prevent anyone with less than 1500 hours from entering a Canadian airliner cockpit.

Then wages will increase. But… I’m willing to bet seats will diminish as well as all of these ULCCs who are already struggling to be solvent fold. There were more than a few US casualties of the 1500 hour rule.

[twa22]

If it was a difficult skill then more people would get turned away during training, and starting salaries would be higher. There's nothing personal about it. Pilot training is based on having enough cash, and pilot advancement is based on perseverance, being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and sticking it out longer than everyone else. Ability has little to do with it at any stage, so I can't see how anyone can claim that it's a skill beyond most people; pretty much anyone who can stick it out long enough can be a pilot.

This has to be the most looney tunes thing I have read in a long time...

And then you say.

Your statement can literally apply to any field of work

Yea what's your point? You can say you need zero skill to be a doctor, pilot, electrician, mechanic, etc,... you can say that about every field, but you'd be nuts to say that

Let's not argue semantics here and like DanWEC said, we need solutions to get out of where we are, and one of them is by valuing our profession a little more then just saying anyone can be a pilot so that's why we're in this position... how freaking hard is that for some to understand?

[Bede]

Only posted one thread, although other threads are also commenting on this.
Trying to reach pilots who are willing to work together to finally change industry pay, and urge any unions to do so since there are so many negotiating this year.

It's up to pilots to make the change, not the management or owners.

There are several ways to raise pay, even a small fare increase works:

A 737/319 with passengers in only 100 seats. Charge an extra $5 a ticket. That’s $500 or $250 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 2.5 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A Dash8 or ATR with passengers in only 20 seats. Charge an extra $10 a ticket. That’s $200 or $100 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 1.0 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A B1900 or Metro or Saab with passengers in only 10 seats. Charge an extra $20 a ticket. That’s $200 or $100 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 1.0 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

If you’re carrying cargo on a B1900 or Caravan or other type – Amazon, UPS, FedEx are making mass profits. You should easily be able to get more.

If you’re flying King Air, Otter or other 703 types, most your clients are corporate, government or paid for by the government. The corporations and government understand inflation is going on. Up the flight rates by $200 an hour for $100 extra each hour per pilot.

A small increase in fares covers huge increases in pilot salaries, there isn’t even a requirement to take from existing revenues.


Maybe pilot unions aren’t that smart if they can’t figure out how to get a raise.

That's the dumbest thing I've read in a while. Why wouldn't the airline just increase fares by $5/$10/$20 and keep the cash for themselves? Because total revenue will decrease. It's called revenue optimization and airlines are very good at it. I believe that there are grade 10 math problems that deal with this subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Lm-OgFIK4

PS. I'd be a bit nicer about this if you weren't so damn confident you've got this whole thing figured out.

[CanadaAir]

Only posted one thread, although other threads are also commenting on this.
Trying to reach pilots who are willing to work together to finally change industry pay, and urge any unions to do so since there are so many negotiating this year.

It's up to pilots to make the change, not the management or owners.

There are several ways to raise pay, even a small fare increase works:

A 737/319 with passengers in only 100 seats. Charge an extra $5 a ticket. That’s $500 or $250 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 2.5 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A Dash8 or ATR with passengers in only 20 seats. Charge an extra $10 a ticket. That’s $200 or $100 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 1.0 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A B1900 or Metro or Saab with passengers in only 10 seats. Charge an extra $20 a ticket. That’s $200 or $100 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 1.0 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

If you’re carrying cargo on a B1900 or Caravan or other type – Amazon, UPS, FedEx are making mass profits. You should easily be able to get more.

If you’re flying King Air, Otter or other 703 types, most your clients are corporate, government or paid for by the government. The corporations and government understand inflation is going on. Up the flight rates by $200 an hour for $100 extra each hour per pilot.

A small increase in fares covers huge increases in pilot salaries, there isn’t even a requirement to take from existing revenues.


Maybe pilot unions aren’t that smart if they can’t figure out how to get a raise.

That's the dumbest thing I've read in a while. Why wouldn't the airline just increase fares by $5/$10/$20 and keep the cash for themselves? Because total revenue will decrease. It's called revenue optimization and airlines are very good at it. I believe that there are grade 10 math problems that deal with this subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Lm-OgFIK4

PS. I'd be a bit nicer about this if you weren't so damn confident you've got this whole thing figured out.

In practice, it doesn't work like your video suggests, where they have made an oversimplified economics problem to teach kids. There are even economic discussions as to the extent this phenomena occurs. If you took airfares from $200 a flight to $800 a flight, that might affect travel rates. Adding minor amounts like $5 or $10 on a ticket does little to change travel habits. This has been evident from all the surcharges which have been added on over the years, from Airport Improvement Fees to Nav Canada charges and baggage fees.
Competition between carriers also plays a factor in how passenger ticket rates are set and the complex software used to do this and change ticket prices often.

Of course management would prefer increase in ticket prices to go to shareholder instead of pilots. That's why pilots need to advocate for their share.

Small rate changes are all that are needed to pay pilots well. Even $2 a ticket goes a long way when spread over all the passengers.

The solution is simple, all pilots and unions need to do is stand up for it.

[rookiepilot]

The solution is simple, all pilots and unions need to do is stand up for it.

How are you leading the way in standing up for it? In your own name?

Besides posting here — anonymously— that is?

People follow people who take a pubic stand, and take a risk.

I really dislike threads like this.

Everyone wants SOMEONE ELSE to the work, put their name out there…risk getting fired.

You do it. Walk a picket line in the freezing rain. Protest on Parliament hill. Write a public letter to your employer. Sign it.

That earns respect.

Or quit. Start a business.

[photofly]

You're pathetic, stop excusing shit pay just because a lot of people want to be pilots but people don't want to work in trades.

If it was a difficult skill then more people would get turned away during training, and starting salaries would be higher. There's nothing personal about it. Pilot training is based on having enough cash, and pilot advancement is based on perseverance, being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and sticking it out longer than everyone else. Ability has little to do with it at any stage, so I can't see how anyone can claim that it's a skill beyond most people; pretty much anyone who can stick it out long enough can be a pilot.

This has to be the most looney tunes thing I have read in a long time... Your statement can literally apply to any field of work

I don't think so. Most well paid fields are intensely competitive for entry - think law school, medical school - most who apply don't get in - and even when you enter the profession, advancement is at least to some extent predicated on skill and merit.

I cannot think of anyone who wants to be an airline pilot and is told - at any stage - you're not good enough.

Photofly, with respect, the mentality we need isn't a redundant, circular, self-deprecating analysis of every reason why we could possibly be here, but rather a focus on getting the @#$! out of it.

Restrict the supply of labour. You can do this by raising the barriers to entry - making flight tests considerably harder, for example. Institute a closed shop - only union members may fly for an airline, and the union restricts who can join (like Actor's Equity). Or strike.

[Bede]

The solution is simple, all pilots and unions need to do is stand up for it.

Of course all complex problems have simple solutions. If only the people with the simple solutions were in charge....

[twa22]

If it was a difficult skill then more people would get turned away during training, and starting salaries would be higher. There's nothing personal about it. Pilot training is based on having enough cash, and pilot advancement is based on perseverance, being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and sticking it out longer than everyone else. Ability has little to do with it at any stage, so I can't see how anyone can claim that it's a skill beyond most people; pretty much anyone who can stick it out long enough can be a pilot.

This has to be the most looney tunes thing I have read in a long time... Your statement can literally apply to any field of work

I don't think so. Most well paid fields are intensely competitive for entry - think law school, medical school - most who apply don't get in - and even when you enter the profession, advancement is at least to some extent predicated on skill and merit.

I cannot think of anyone who wants to be an airline pilot and is told - at any stage - you're not good enough.

Photofly, with respect, the mentality we need isn't a redundant, circular, self-deprecating analysis of every reason why we could possibly be here, but rather a focus on getting the @#$! out of it.

Restrict the supply of labour. You can do this by raising the barriers to entry - making flight tests considerably harder, for example. Institute a closed shop - only union members may fly for an airline, and the union restricts who can join (like Actor's Equity). Or strike.

Bingo, barriers to entry... you're right, it's easier to enter here and become a pilot vs med school or law school, I won't disagree with you on that, but I don't like you inferring that because it's easy to get into flight school here, in Canada, that you require no skill to become a pilot, that's just plain wrong... If the barrier to entry into med school is easier somewhere else in the world, where virtually anyone can get in, does that infer that it takes no skill to become a doctor? I hope you understand that in other parts of the world, becoming a pilot is much, much harder then it is here

I won't argue semantics, but generalizing that becoming a pilot on a broad scale takes no skill because the barrier to entry is non existent in Canada is just plain wrong

[photofly]

I won't argue semantics, but generalizing that becoming a pilot on a broad scale takes no skill because the barrier to entry is non existent in Canada is just plain wrong

It definitely takes skill to be a successful pilot. But it doesn't take more skill than the average person can achieve.

I don't know that it takes more skill than the average person can reach to be a doctor either, but it definitely takes more academic achievement to get into medical school than is achievable by the average person.

Personally I think the whole seniority system is a disaster for pilot salaries. Why would you want to stop the better pilots earning more?

[thepoors]

This is still one of the biggest problems we face: look at all the guys rushing to AC right now to be the lowest paid in the world on their respective types.

[Bede]

It definitely takes skill to be a successful pilot. But it doesn't take more skill than the average person can achieve.

I generally agree with everything you've written on this thread, but I can't help to think that a selection bias is affecting your opinion. Is being a pilot overly difficult? Not for me, not for you, not for most people on this forum, and not for many of our students. BUT, you are only looking at fellow pilots and your bright, successful and highly motivated students. If you took a randomly selected sample from the population and tried to teach them to fly, I would suspect that a small percentage would never solo, a slightly larger percentage could get a PPL, but their skills would be iffy, and a majority would simply not have the coordination/judgement to fly commercially.

If we want to make headway in this profession, the barriers to entry need to be raised- much more difficult ATPL exams and more experience to fly 705 aircraft. This is how every other profession looks after themselves.

[rookiepilot]

Personally I think the whole seniority system is a disaster for pilot salaries. Why would you want to stop the better pilots earning more?

Whole seniority system is a disaster period. Merit based. Period.

[photofly]

If you took a randomly selected sample from the population and tried to teach them to fly, I would suspect that a small percentage would never solo, a slightly larger percentage could get a PPL, but their skills would be iffy, and a majority would simply not have the coordination/judgement to fly commercially.

I'd need convincing that it's that much harder than driving.

But it's easy enough for almost anyone who has the time, money and energy to see the process through to succeed. I see absolutely no evidence that isn't the case. It doesn't really matter whether the people who aren't interested in a pilot career are coordinated enough or not. If (nearly) all those who are interested in such a career are coordinated enough then there's no effective skill barrier.

[Aviatard]

Personally I think the whole seniority system is a disaster for pilot salaries. Why would you want to stop the better pilots earning more?

Whole seniority system is a disaster period. Merit based. Period.

Great idea. How do you measure merit in an airline pilot? On time performance? Fuel consumption? Greasing landings?

[Aspiredtofly]

Tim.png


Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

None of these jobs require signing a training bond or mandatory remote bush work or working the ramp for 2 years with a promise of maybe getting a job. They don’t require over $100k in training costs – if you haven’t looked recently, 1 hour solo in a flying club Cessna 172R is over $200/hr + instructor rates of $80/hr. Multi training is almost $500/hr. University and college tuition is rising, along with inflation.

All CAR700 pilots shouldn’t be accepting less than $90k to start in their upcoming contract negotiations if they want to be on par with any other junior professionals like Meter Readers and Tim Hortons delivery drivers.

If you are currently making less than 90k a year, go to your employer and argue that since a Meter Reader is making 70k with no education, you should be paid at least 70k to be aligned with the Meter Reader and add another 20k annually so you can pay off your education over 5 or 6 years.
You should be able to pay off student loans quickly and not carrying them into mid life.

If you have an ATPL, you aren’t a junior employee and shouldn’t be comparing yourself to a Meter Reader. Those piloting licenses and years of training and working your way up to 1500 hours has some value – with an ATPL demand no less than $120k a year.

ACPA and ALPA are failing as unions if they set the first year pay less than $120k. Is this a profession or is it not?

Medevac Pilots – start having some respect for yourself and what you do. Remote uncontrolled Medevac is the most dangerous and complex flying in civil aviation. You should be making at least as much as the nurse or doctor on board, regardless if it’s a PC-12, King Air or light jet. The government is willing to pay 20k or more for transporting the person onboard, and then maybe 100k or more for their hospital stay – they are as precious a payload as any airliner carrying 100 passenger. Don’t treat yourself as deserving less than airline pilots. Stand up to employers who pay low so they don’t undercut the Medevac companies who are willing to pay high.

If you have a union, scrap the training bonds. No other industry does this. You already subsided the training for your employer by paying 100k+ for your flight training and post-secondary.

New nurses and medical workers are being paid signing bonus of $10k to 20k. Set a new expectation for signing bonuses, and stop signing training agreements binding you to the company. You should have the ability to leave without penalty.

In your new contracts don’t:

• - Pay for aircraft type training or instrument renewals
  - Pay for pilot medicals – still many companies requiring this. The company should pay you 1 hour time for driving to and taking your medical
  - Pay for pilot shirts, dress pants, ties, black shoes or other company uniform requirements
  - Pay for safety vests or winter clothing or gloves if you have to fuel or de-ice the plane, shovel snow or brush snow off the aircraft.
  - Pay for charts and maps or iPads required for work - required by law, non-negotiable
  - Pay for out of country or out of province cell phone plans – your employer should pay for all long distance charges and required data usage on your cell phones
  - Pay for CPR and first aid courses
  - Pay for taxis, rental cars or ground transport any time you are away from base
  - Pay for gym or fitness facility access while away from base – the company has a responsibility to your Category 1 Medical health
  - Pay for time in the FTD – especially instructors and those working on the ramp “waiting”
  - Pay for flashlights, headsets or sunglasses – these are required for the job
  - Pay for pens, paper or other basic office supplies
  - Pay for meals, hotels or accommodations while on duty or on call
  - Pay for pilot life insurance – make sure your employer’s insurance policy covers you. Many pilots, and almost all flight instructors, are directly exempt from the insurance policies you carry on board. Make sure you are covered by the company.

All contracts should require the company to cover 100% of the legal fees for a pilot, in the ever more common event they are sued by passengers if there is an incident, travel delay or accident.

All time taking company required exams, initial and renewal training should be paid.

Time on call, on reserve, deadheading/relocation or waiting for clients should be paid at no less than half time for every hour – other industries charge call out fees and driving time for workers who have to spend time travelling.

If you are waiting around the airport for a broken plane or weather delay or scheduling issue, you should be paid half time for every hour waiting and not doing your job. Stop letting the companies position you without pay.

If you are required to show up to work, and then sent home, you should be paid for the expense of driving to work and for the time you spent waiting, usually no less than 4 hours pay.

All pilots should get a per diem which meet the level set by the federal government - non-negotiable
https://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/d10/v238/s659/en

Make sure your employer’s insurance policy covers you while on the job and any time you are travelling for work, commuting, or deadheading. Many pilots, and almost all flight instructors, are directly exempt from the insurance policies you carry on board. Make sure you are covered by the company at a minimum to the levels set by the federal government
https://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/d10/v238/s648/en

Like most other industries, if you are working outside the standard 6 am to 6 pm working hours at your home base, you should expect 10 – 20% extra pay for every hour worked as per the law in many jurisdictions.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversig ... mployees/

If you are required to travel across more than 2 time zones, you should get additional time zone pay – 10% per hour while away from base.

If you are operating old aircraft without autopilot or moving map GPS, your work is more difficult, you should expect an extra 10% pay for this.

Dangerous flying such as crop-dusting, fire suppression, banner towing, low level surveillance or pipeline flying and non-paved landing strips should all have an extra 10% danger pay.

Pilots should never be loading/unloading cargo beyond a few passenger suitcases or for rich Amazon or UPS companies - they can afford baggage staff. Loading/unloading should always be the job of trained and paid ground handlers who have the appropriate safety equipment. If a pilot is required to do it, the company is required to train the pilots on lifting techniques and issue the pilots lifting harnesses and paid steel toe foot wear – which should not carried on board the aircraft due to its possible electromagnetic effects.

Any time deicing or fueling or doing office work must be paid.

Be a professional pilot. Flight planning, crew and aircraft preparation should be your ground duties, not loading or cleaning (thanks westjet).

Can't be any better, I agree with all that you've said here I'm genuinely impressed. All pilots must take the action to eliminate every repercussion that exist within this industry. It's sickening how pilots manage to takle inflation and high cost of living with extreamly low wages even with high experience and extra licences at the side.

[photofly]

Personally I think the whole seniority system is a disaster for pilot salaries. Why would you want to stop the better pilots earning more?

Whole seniority system is a disaster period. Merit based. Period.

Great idea. How do you measure merit in an airline pilot? On time performance? Fuel consumption? Greasing landings?

It doesn’t really matter. Anything to distinguish one pilot from another, and allow one pilot to claim they are “better” and therefore worth more than another. Do it by cleanliness of uniform if you want, anything you’re happy to compete about.

Maintaining that all pilots are of equal merit commoditizes the role.

Once there is genuine competition between pilots for roles (like engineers and lawyers and doctors) some pilots will (by merit) earn very very high salaries, and some (through lack of merit) will earn less, just like every other job. But pilots will understand that if they want to earn more they just have to outperform the pilot next to them, which is way easier than the present arrangements. That puts every pilot back in personal control of how much they earn, which is how it works in the rest of the world.

The seniority thing is just so out to lunch.

[cdnavater]

Whole seniority system is a disaster period. Merit based. Period.

Great idea. How do you measure merit in an airline pilot? On time performance? Fuel consumption? Greasing landings?

It doesn’t really matter. Anything to distinguish one pilot from another, and allow one pilot to claim they are “better” and therefore worth more than another. Do it by cleanliness of uniform if you want, anything you’re happy to compete about.

Maintaining that all pilots are of equal merit commoditizes the role.

Once there is genuine competition between pilots for roles (like engineers and lawyers and doctors) some pilots will (by merit) earn very very high salaries, and some (through lack of merit) will earn less, just like every other job. But pilots will understand that if they want to earn more they just have to outperform the pilot next to them, which is way easier than the present arrangements. That puts every pilot back in personal control of how much they earn, which is how it works in the rest of the world.

The seniority thing is just so out to lunch.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read in a while, it obviously comes from someone who has no clue how the airline industry works.
Show me a company with 4000+ engineers with all different wages, pretty sure in Canada other than private practice doctors are paid the same, some will earn more through more work or more credentials but I have to be honest I don’t really know for sure.
That being said, how many managers do you hire to evaluate their cleanliness or whatever metric you’re using.
Even the small non union shops have a seniority based pay system, obviously if there was a better way, someone would have tried it already.

[rookiepilot]

Personally I think the whole seniority system is a disaster for pilot salaries. Why would you want to stop the better pilots earning more?

Whole seniority system is a disaster period. Merit based. Period.

Great idea. How do you measure merit in an airline pilot? On time performance? Fuel consumption? Greasing landings?

Present system where seniority rules, gives us stuff like this:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/amer ... index.html

And with teachers, a stones throw from my home base, this:

https://nypost.com/2023/02/17/canadian- ... e-breasts/

And this:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increas ... s-d5985dee

Nice, eh?

The future is so bright, gotta wear shades……

[Aviatard]

Whole seniority system is a disaster period. Merit based. Period.

Great idea. How do you measure merit in an airline pilot? On time performance? Fuel consumption? Greasing landings?

Present system where seniority rules, gives us stuff like this:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/amer ... index.html

And with teachers, a stones throw from my home base, this:

https://nypost.com/2023/02/17/canadian- ... e-breasts/

And this:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increas ... s-d5985dee

Nice, eh?

The future is so bright, gotta wear shades……

That’s great but you didn’t answer my question. How do you measure merit for pilots?

[cdnavater]

Great idea. How do you measure merit in an airline pilot? On time performance? Fuel consumption? Greasing landings?

Present system where seniority rules, gives us stuff like this:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/amer ... index.html

And with teachers, a stones throw from my home base, this:

https://nypost.com/2023/02/17/canadian- ... e-breasts/

And this:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increas ... s-d5985dee

Nice, eh?

The future is so bright, gotta wear shades……

That’s great but you didn’t answer my question. How do you measure merit for pilots?

If you go a year without making the news, you get a raise

[twa22]

Great idea. How do you measure merit in an airline pilot? On time performance? Fuel consumption? Greasing landings?

It doesn’t really matter. Anything to distinguish one pilot from another, and allow one pilot to claim they are “better” and therefore worth more than another. Do it by cleanliness of uniform if you want, anything you’re happy to compete about.

Maintaining that all pilots are of equal merit commoditizes the role.

Once there is genuine competition between pilots for roles (like engineers and lawyers and doctors) some pilots will (by merit) earn very very high salaries, and some (through lack of merit) will earn less, just like every other job. But pilots will understand that if they want to earn more they just have to outperform the pilot next to them, which is way easier than the present arrangements. That puts every pilot back in personal control of how much they earn, which is how it works in the rest of the world.

The seniority thing is just so out to lunch.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read in a while

Glad i'm not the only one...

[CanadaAir]

The solution is simple, all pilots and unions need to do is stand up for it.

How are you leading the way in standing up for it? In your own name?

Besides posting here — anonymously— that is?

People follow people who take a pubic stand, and take a risk.

I really dislike threads like this.

Everyone wants SOMEONE ELSE to the work, put their name out there…risk getting fired.

You do it. Walk a picket line in the freezing rain. Protest on Parliament hill. Write a public letter to your employer. Sign it.

That earns respect.

Or quit. Start a business.

2 parts to your comment.

The solution is simple to find the money.

As per examples in post above, raising pilot wages by $50 to $100 an hour only takes a passenger fare increase of $2 to $10 per ticket. Or instead of raising fares, this $2 to $10 could be taken from existing passenger fares/revenue. Or $1 could be taken from existing revenue, and $1 from increasing fares, or any combination. Or the carrier could increase supplemental fees by $1, and fares by $0.50.
There are many ways to get a few more $ per passenger.

Only a small amount of the passenger fare is required to do large increases to pilot salary. It’s the same how the air carriers make loads of extra money off drinks, food, bags, upgrades, and how the airports pay off billions with the small improvement fees.

The money for higher wages, not hard to find.

What is not simple is to convince pilots they should stand up for an extra small percentage of the overall fare, instead of it going directly to executives or shareholders. Valid point.

All pilots in the company need to take a stand and work together, whether at a unionized company or not.

All need to take some responsibility for improving wage and conditions.

Pilots can start by simply informing themselves about better working conditions that already exist at other companies. If there is a union, the pilot contracts are all posted publicly online for you to compare.

Did you know, some air carriers

- Pay pilots 60% of wages to deadhead/reposition
- Place all deadheading pilots in reserved first class (not economy or jumpseats)
- Reimburse pilots for their commuting fees if based in another area of the country
- Pay for their cellphone plans, pilot medicals and for parking at the airport
- Pay hourly rates for a 40 hour work week while training
- Pay 100% for hotels and airfares while in training
- Pay your airfare and accommodations for an interview and hiring
- Allow travel benefits day 1, not after 6 months of probation
- Allow pilots to use the simulators free of charge when available, for upkeep of skills (& flight schools shouldn’t be charging instructors to use the FTD)

You can do this research while you are in the hotels or waiting for flights instead of watching movies in the crew lounge.

After doing your own research talk with your union representatives, ask them questions, see if there are areas you can volunteer your time.
You will learn whether your union representatives are suitable and able to represent the pilots well and actually have the plans to make contract gains, or if they are advocating below pilot expectations, or if they are too close to management and using their union position to try and get a future management or executive role. Then it’s up to you to elect new union reps.

There are occasions where a union may recommend a contract, but if the pilots think they can do better, they can reject what the union is recommending and send them back to the table for even better.

You can take time to talk with other pilots inside and outside your company on how to take steps to improve the industry as a group all working together.

Unions are used for tough negotiations, and the employer can’t fire you for being part of the union or doing union work like negotiating higher pay.

The last option is to strike. Picketing isn’t that hard, and if the pilot group is large it’s easy to trade off shifts.

You can’t complain about holding a sign in the rain if you’ve spent time in the bush or working ramp. Should be easy compared to past adventures. Most the time it isn’t raining, and its no more boring than deadheading.

Pilots in the US hold signs often and look at their pay & many US pilots get paid to deadhead in first class, and reimbursed to commute.

There isn’t a need to spend weeks on strike, if the pilot group is standing together and firm on demands the air carriers won’t want to have public embarrassment and brand damage from a strike or any lost revenues from labor action.

Most the public still think pilots are rich and travel in glamour. The damage to an air carrier’s brand would be immense if the passengers learned how little the pilots are paid.

A competent executive wouldn’t let things get to a strike point if there are simpler ways to close the negotiations such as by raising the average fare a few dollars to pay the pilots more. The shareholders would fire company directors who let a strike destroy days of their profits.

Management are people to, they can understand inflation requires higher wages, how rents are going up and mortgage rates, & if you show them how a meter reader or other unskilled labor is making $70k to $90k & show them proof of the current wages of other junior professionals, they have will have little to argue against.

It's up to the unions and employees to show to management their worth, and suggest to management ways to find the money for more pay - such as by increasing fares a few dollars spread out over the passengers and other extra revenues like food and baggage fees.


Valid point. The pilots have to really want higher wages and be willing to take organized steps toward higher wages with actual plan of action.

[CanadaAir]

It’s more difficult for employee without unions to obtain large pay increases, but look at how non-unionized Porter raised wages or WestJet’s compensation of wages and stock when WestJet first started and didn’t have a union.

There are also several 703 which pay $100k to $150k on King Airs without unions.

So it’s not impossible for non-unionized employees to negotiate with their owners and raise wages. It depends on the boss.
If the boss will attempt to fire you if you ask for a raise, then it might be worth it to form a union. Even small pilot groups with fewer than 30 pilots can have a union, and you don’t need to go with ALPA.

This is the new Porter Captain wages for the jet

11.png (68.34 KiB) Viewed 32445 times

This is now the new minimum pay standard in upcoming negotiations for any pilots flying E170/175/190/195, CRJ200/705, Dash 8 100/300/400, ATR 42/72.

737 and Airbus pilots should be looking for even higher.

The WestJet union representatives have been clear that all 737 pilots will be paid equal across WestJet, Swoop & Sunwing. There may be differences between the company business models, but all WestJet pilots will be paid on the same scale.

The WestJet representatives have stated they are bargaining for pay aligned with the top of the industry.

Top would be $375/hour for year 1 captains and $200/hour for year 1 first officers.

Which is possible if pilots only take a few $ from each passenger ticket.

[cdnavater]

It’s more difficult for employee without unions to obtain large pay increases, but look at how non-unionized Porter raised wages or WestJet’s compensation of wages and stock when WestJet first started and didn’t have a union.

There are also several 703 which pay $100k to $150k on King Airs without unions.

So it’s not impossible for non-unionized employees to negotiate with their owners and raise wages. It depends on the boss.
If the boss will attempt to fire you if you ask for a raise, then it might be worth it to form a union. Even small pilot groups with fewer than 30 pilots can have a union, and you don’t need to go with ALPA.

This is the new Porter Captain wages for the jet


11.png


This is now the new minimum pay standard in upcoming negotiations for any pilots flying E170/175/190/195, CRJ200/705, Dash 8 100/300/400, ATR 42/72.

737 and Airbus pilots should be looking for even higher.

The WestJet union representatives have been clear that all 737 pilots will be paid equal across WestJet, Swoop & Sunwing. There may be differences between the company business models, but all WestJet pilots will be paid on the same scale.

The WestJet representatives have stated they are bargaining for pay aligned with the top of the industry.

Top would be $375/hour for year 1 captains and $200/hour for year 1 first officers.

Which is possible if pilots only take a few $ from each passenger ticket.

After reading this, I was left with two thoughts, you are not a pilot or this is a satirical!

[CanadaAir]

It’s more difficult for employee without unions to obtain large pay increases, but look at how non-unionized Porter raised wages or WestJet’s compensation of wages and stock when WestJet first started and didn’t have a union.

There are also several 703 which pay $100k to $150k on King Airs without unions.

So it’s not impossible for non-unionized employees to negotiate with their owners and raise wages. It depends on the boss.
If the boss will attempt to fire you if you ask for a raise, then it might be worth it to form a union. Even small pilot groups with fewer than 30 pilots can have a union, and you don’t need to go with ALPA.

This is the new Porter Captain wages for the jet


11.png


This is now the new minimum pay standard in upcoming negotiations for any pilots flying E170/175/190/195, CRJ200/705, Dash 8 100/300/400, ATR 42/72.

737 and Airbus pilots should be looking for even higher.

The WestJet union representatives have been clear that all 737 pilots will be paid equal across WestJet, Swoop & Sunwing. There may be differences between the company business models, but all WestJet pilots will be paid on the same scale.

The WestJet representatives have stated they are bargaining for pay aligned with the top of the industry.

Top would be $375/hour for year 1 captains and $200/hour for year 1 first officers.

Which is possible if pilots only take a few $ from each passenger ticket.

After reading this, I was left with two thoughts, you are not a pilot or this is a satirical!

The pay rates mentioned are possible to achieve. As per comments above, some carriers have already achieved or exceeded these pay rates & some carriers did triple their pilot salary in one year.

A brief summary of the process is outlined above.

It’d be interesting to know why do you think 705 regional jet and large turboprop pilots should go into their next negotiations expecting anything less than what Porter has set?

Why do you think narrow body Boeing and Airbus pilots should go into their negotiations asking for less pay than the rates already being paid to other pilots flying the same aircraft on similar routes?