Porter pilots make more now

[altiplano]

It's about productivity more than responsibility.

Heavier airplane, more payload, more paying pax/cargo, faster, further. That's what drives airline pilot pay.

[Loon-A-Tic]

It's all drive by the one word I've learned to hate "legacy".

Legacy airplanes
Legacy policies

and

Legacy remuneration structures

Legacy, history shows us the mistakes we've made so why are we still making the same mistakes.

[Bede]

Waiting for co-joe to comment on this.

He's been too busy today washing Brian's van and driving for Uber Eats to log in here.

FFS. Give the below the belt ad homin attacks a rest.

[khedrei]

The thread is still a bit misleading.

Starting FO pay is still higher at Flair.

But good on Porter for stepping up their game a bit. Looks like FOs are getting no attention across the board so gains likely won't be coming from other carriers who will just copy the others.

[WJ200]

The thread is still a bit misleading.

Starting FO pay is still higher at Flair.

But good on Porter for stepping up their game a bit. Looks like FOs are getting no attention across the board so gains likely won't be coming from other carriers who will just copy the others.

The reality is FO experience has also significantly decreased over the past few years. To expect otherwise isn't based on reality

[braaap Braap]

Definitely more responsibility. More lives in your hands.

I disagree. Having 1 life in your hands should bring out the same amount of professionalism as flying 100 lives around. If I chose to fly a caravan in northern Canada, does that mean I can be less responsible?……..no

While I do agree that passenger counts do factor in slightly into pay scales, I think the 737s,320s,E2s,220s are too close to differentiate on that scale.

100% the professionalism should be there no matter what. How much you get paid shouldn't dictate how much professionalism you exhibit. That's not what the increased pay is for. It's extra compensation for the added responsibility of stuff like: Better chance of a medical emergency, unruly, some sort of other passenger issue, managing a larger crew. And if shit hits the fan, The 777 captain is ultimately responsible for a bigger evacuation than the Northern Caravan guy.

[RoAF-Mig21]

What I'm a little concerned about is the discrepancy in pay for Q400 vs E2 pilots. I don't know why the value of a Q400 captain is so much less than an Embraer. If anything, the Q400 is harder to fly than the jet. I think both pilots on the Q and the E2 should be paid equally, at the very least captains. There is also no incentive for an F/O on the E2 to go captain on the Q400.

With such a huge pay gap, everyone on the Q will want to switch to the Embraer. Any new "direct hire E2 pilot" will be pushed at the bottom of the list, possibly even forced to go to the Q400. I'd be very cautions to make a move from Jazz to Porter for that very reason. (I say Jazz because they're the only ones flying the Embraer in Canada).

Jazz pays its pilots all the same, regardless of aircraft. Porter should do the same.

[braaap Braap]

With such a huge pay gap, everyone on the Q will want to switch to the Embraer.

I think that's the point. People hired onto the E2 won't get pushed to the Q unless there is a reduction bid (and if that's the case what they're on will be the least of their worries).

[CaptDukeNukem]

With such a huge pay gap, everyone on the Q will want to switch to the Embraer.

I think that's the point. People hired onto the E2 won't get pushed to the Q unless there is a reduction bid (and if that's the case what they're on will be the least of their worries).

Yup, and with a minimum 50 airplanes coming, even if ALL Q4 drivers jump over, direct entry E2 captain will still probably be able to hold it forever.

[flyinhigh]

Jazz pays its pilots all the same, regardless of aircraft. Porter should do the same.

Jazz is the only company in Canada with Statues pay and while great does have its flaws as well. Also, if porter was to go that direction, that a YR1 Capt on the EMB would not be at $160 per hr, it would be much lower to elevate the DH8 thus running into the problems Jazz is now having.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Jazz pays its pilots all the same, regardless of aircraft. Porter should do the same.

Jazz is the only company in Canada with Statues pay and while great does have its flaws as well. Also, if porter was to go that direction, that a YR1 Capt on the EMB would not be at $160 per hr, it would be much lower to elevate the DH8 thus running into the problems Jazz is now having.

If you paid an E2 capt $160 an hour, I think a Q400 capt deserves the same. The responsability, skill and complexity of flying the Q is no different than the E2.

If you f**** up, 78 pax vs 132 pax.... you're still gonna make the news. (I know, morbid example, but that's what pilots are paid for, right? The safety of the passengers, crew and those on the ground...)

[flyinhigh]

If you paid an E2 capt $160 an hour, I think a Q400 capt deserves the same. The responsability, skill and complexity of flying the Q is no different than the E2.

So a 220 skipper at AC deserves the same pay as a 777 Skipper? or a 37 skipper in the US deserves the same as a 777 skipper?? Personally, I have never saw any airline in the world pay the same on that premise.

I'm not sayin the DH8 pays enough, because it does need to come up, however the above logic does not make sense.

[RoAF-Mig21]

If you paid an E2 capt $160 an hour, I think a Q400 capt deserves the same. The responsability, skill and complexity of flying the Q is no different than the E2.

So a 220 skipper at AC deserves the same pay as a 777 Skipper? or a 37 skipper in the US deserves the same as a 777 skipper?? Personally, I have never saw any airline in the world pay the same on that premise.

I'm not sayin the DH8 pays enough, because it does need to come up, however the above logic does not make sense.

If not penny for penny, close enough. You can't be making significantly less money and the discrepancy in pay at Porter between the E2 captains and the Q400 captains is quite big. That's all I'm saying.

...AND YES, AIR CANADA PILOTS SHOULD ALL BE PAID THE SAME. A 15 year captain on the A220, A321, A330 should be making the same as a 777 captain. There are many airlines around the world that pay based on years of service, not the metal they fly. It's not as if "more skill" is required to fly one to the other. If that were the case, it would be healthier for pilots. 60 year olds could fly the A220 and let the young guys fly the ultra long haul.

[JHR]

Just like when Jazz pilots flew the 757 for Dash wages

[RoAF-Mig21]

Just like when Jazz pilots flew the 757 for Dash wages

I had something different in mind... but sure, we'll go with what you said.

If I'm not mistaken, Swiss pilots are all on the same pay scale. The more senior pilots (close to retirement) end up flying Europeana domestic routes and the younger folks (40s, 50s) do the long haul. Also, instructors are usually retired airline pilots. Here we have a 200 hr guy teaching a 10 hour guy.

I'm willing to be my year's salary that if Air Canada had the same pay across the board, 70% of older pilots would be on narrow-body aircraft, flying domestic routes, not having to deal with time zones and sleep deprivation. Sure, you may have to work a few more extra days, but the health benefits are greater, not to mention quality of life (fatigue).

That's okay though. We have things figured out in Canada. After all, there are no issues here in aviation.

[landshark]

It’s called status pay and it’s not common in NA; but very common in Europe with the legacy carriers.

[YC87DRVR]

Jazz pays its pilots all the same, regardless of aircraft. Porter should do the same.

Jazz is the only company in Canada with Statues pay and while great does have its flaws as well. Also, if porter was to go that direction, that a YR1 Capt on the EMB would not be at $160 per hr, it would be much lower to elevate the DH8 thus running into the problems Jazz is now having.

If you paid an E2 capt $160 an hour, I think a Q400 capt deserves the same. The responsability, skill and complexity of flying the Q is no different than the E2.

Not exactly true. I’ve never flown an E2 but have flown the Q and jets similar in size to the e2. While you’re right responsibility is the same, skill and complexity is not. The jet obviously is more complex and requires a higher level of skill and knowledge to properly manage things like speed/energy management and trip planning(fuel & altitude management).
While not overly difficult and easily learned, to say they’re the same to try to prove a point for pay is counterproductive.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Jazz is the only company in Canada with Statues pay and while great does have its flaws as well. Also, if porter was to go that direction, that a YR1 Capt on the EMB would not be at $160 per hr, it would be much lower to elevate the DH8 thus running into the problems Jazz is now having.

If you paid an E2 capt $160 an hour, I think a Q400 capt deserves the same. The responsability, skill and complexity of flying the Q is no different than the E2.

Not exactly true. I’ve never flown an E2 but have flown the Q and jets similar in size to the e2. While you’re right responsibility is the same, skill and complexity is not. The jet obviously is more complex and requires a higher level of skill and knowledge to properly manage things like speed/energy management and trip planning(fuel & altitude management).
While not overly difficult and easily learned, to say they’re the same to try to prove a point for pay is counterproductive.

Well I've flown jets and turboprops (including the Dash and the Embraer). I find the Dash 8 the hardest plane I've ever flown (not to say that it's hard).

My point is this:
Take any Air Canada captain and train them on the 777 he or she will be able to fly it just as well as anyone else. Let's not kid ourselves. Upgrades at Air Canada and most union companies are not given on merit, but rather by seniority. It's not like ONLY "the best 600 captains" at AC can fly widebodies. I'm thoroughly convinced that all pilots are AC are higly qualified individuals.

Back to Porter, take any Q400 captain there and they'll be able to fly the E2 no problem. The transition from the Q400 to the E2 should be a breeze, so why not pay them the same?

[TheStig]

Because the Q pilots don’t generate as much revenue as the E2 pilots when you look at CASM vs RASM. This is from the WJ forum posted recently, the 787 crew makes roughly double what the Q400 crew earns and yet is half of the overall operating cost.

[TFTMB heavy]

Jazz pays its pilots all the same, regardless of aircraft. Porter should do the same.

Jazz is the only company in Canada with Statues pay and while great does have its flaws as well. Also, if porter was to go that direction, that a YR1 Capt on the EMB would not be at $160 per hr, it would be much lower to elevate the DH8 thus running into the problems Jazz is now having.

Air Transat has status pay. We have a narrow body pascale but nobody is on it since the 321 does the same work as the 330. All 321 pilots fly the NEO LR and the CEO so they're all on the wide body pay scale.

[co-joe]

Waiting for co-joe to comment on this.

He's been too busy today washing Brian's van and driving for Uber Eats to log in here.

I just love that our new pay scale has been the catalyst to better wages at Sunwing, Encore, and Porter in a matter of a few short weeks. Just imagine what WestJet, and Air Canada will be able to achieve now! C'mon Lynx, C'mon Jazz, C'mon Canadian North, you can do it! Cargojet and Morningstar you can too!

Just remember who the first airline to raise wages in 2023 was, and also remember who gets to renegotiate in 2 years and 10 months once all your chips are down. I dare all of you to go to the bargaining table knowing we'll be nipping at your heels in 2026. I'm so excited to be a part of this!

PS @#$! you Donald

[flyinhigh]

Air Transat has status pay. We have a narrow body pascale but nobody is on it since the 321 does the same work as the 330. All 321 pilots fly the NEO LR and the CEO so they're all on the wide body pay scale.

No, status pay is one payscale all around. TS use to have a narrowbody scale for the 37's and a wide body scale for the 321/330s. Two separate tiered payscales depending if you were narrow/wide body.

True status pay is one scale regardless if you would be narrow/wide body. Now it appears as status as everyone is on widebody pay due to, as you said, the type of flying. If TS brought in a smaller aircraft, like the 37, you can bet your butt that Annick would be bringing back they narrow body pay.

[TFTMB heavy]

Air Transat has status pay. We have a narrow body pascale but nobody is on it since the 321 does the same work as the 330. All 321 pilots fly the NEO LR and the CEO so they're all on the wide body pay scale.

No, status pay is one payscale all around. TS use to have a narrowbody scale for the 37's and a wide body scale for the 321/330s. Two separate tiered payscales depending if you were narrow/wide body.

True status pay is one scale regardless if you would be narrow/wide body. Now it appears as status as everyone is on widebody pay due to, as you said, the type of flying. If TS brought in a smaller aircraft, like the 37, you can bet your butt that Annick would be bringing back they narrow body pay.

Good job using more words to repeat what I posted! We didn’t waste any bargaining capital getting rid of the NB pay scale as nobody should be on it with the new business model and plan.

[Sharklasers]

Air Transat has status pay. We have a narrow body pascale but nobody is on it since the 321 does the same work as the 330. All 321 pilots fly the NEO LR and the CEO so they're all on the wide body pay scale.

No, status pay is one payscale all around. TS use to have a narrowbody scale for the 37's and a wide body scale for the 321/330s. Two separate tiered payscales depending if you were narrow/wide body.

True status pay is one scale regardless if you would be narrow/wide body. Now it appears as status as everyone is on widebody pay due to, as you said, the type of flying. If TS brought in a smaller aircraft, like the 37, you can bet your butt that Annick would be bringing back they narrow body pay.

Good job using more words to repeat what I posted! We didn’t waste any bargaining capital getting rid of the NB pay scale as nobody should be on it with the new business model and plan.

What happens when the A330s are parked, do you guys revert to the NB pay scale?

[TFTMB heavy]

No, status pay is one payscale all around. TS use to have a narrowbody scale for the 37's and a wide body scale for the 321/330s. Two separate tiered payscales depending if you were narrow/wide body.

True status pay is one scale regardless if you would be narrow/wide body. Now it appears as status as everyone is on widebody pay due to, as you said, the type of flying. If TS brought in a smaller aircraft, like the 37, you can bet your butt that Annick would be bringing back they narrow body pay.

Good job using more words to repeat what I posted! We didn’t waste any bargaining capital getting rid of the NB pay scale as nobody should be on it with the new business model and plan.

What happens when the A330s are parked, do you guys revert to the NB pay scale?

No, the scope of the mission dictates pay, not the aircraft..