Porter pilots make more now

[landshark]

It’s called status pay and it’s not common in NA; but very common in Europe with the legacy carriers.

[YC87DRVR]

Jazz pays its pilots all the same, regardless of aircraft. Porter should do the same.

Jazz is the only company in Canada with Statues pay and while great does have its flaws as well. Also, if porter was to go that direction, that a YR1 Capt on the EMB would not be at $160 per hr, it would be much lower to elevate the DH8 thus running into the problems Jazz is now having.

If you paid an E2 capt $160 an hour, I think a Q400 capt deserves the same. The responsability, skill and complexity of flying the Q is no different than the E2.

Not exactly true. I’ve never flown an E2 but have flown the Q and jets similar in size to the e2. While you’re right responsibility is the same, skill and complexity is not. The jet obviously is more complex and requires a higher level of skill and knowledge to properly manage things like speed/energy management and trip planning(fuel & altitude management).
While not overly difficult and easily learned, to say they’re the same to try to prove a point for pay is counterproductive.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Jazz is the only company in Canada with Statues pay and while great does have its flaws as well. Also, if porter was to go that direction, that a YR1 Capt on the EMB would not be at $160 per hr, it would be much lower to elevate the DH8 thus running into the problems Jazz is now having.

If you paid an E2 capt $160 an hour, I think a Q400 capt deserves the same. The responsability, skill and complexity of flying the Q is no different than the E2.

Not exactly true. I’ve never flown an E2 but have flown the Q and jets similar in size to the e2. While you’re right responsibility is the same, skill and complexity is not. The jet obviously is more complex and requires a higher level of skill and knowledge to properly manage things like speed/energy management and trip planning(fuel & altitude management).
While not overly difficult and easily learned, to say they’re the same to try to prove a point for pay is counterproductive.

Well I've flown jets and turboprops (including the Dash and the Embraer). I find the Dash 8 the hardest plane I've ever flown (not to say that it's hard).

My point is this:
Take any Air Canada captain and train them on the 777 he or she will be able to fly it just as well as anyone else. Let's not kid ourselves. Upgrades at Air Canada and most union companies are not given on merit, but rather by seniority. It's not like ONLY "the best 600 captains" at AC can fly widebodies. I'm thoroughly convinced that all pilots are AC are higly qualified individuals.

Back to Porter, take any Q400 captain there and they'll be able to fly the E2 no problem. The transition from the Q400 to the E2 should be a breeze, so why not pay them the same?

[TheStig]

Because the Q pilots don’t generate as much revenue as the E2 pilots when you look at CASM vs RASM. This is from the WJ forum posted recently, the 787 crew makes roughly double what the Q400 crew earns and yet is half of the overall operating cost.

[TFTMB heavy]

Jazz pays its pilots all the same, regardless of aircraft. Porter should do the same.

Jazz is the only company in Canada with Statues pay and while great does have its flaws as well. Also, if porter was to go that direction, that a YR1 Capt on the EMB would not be at $160 per hr, it would be much lower to elevate the DH8 thus running into the problems Jazz is now having.

Air Transat has status pay. We have a narrow body pascale but nobody is on it since the 321 does the same work as the 330. All 321 pilots fly the NEO LR and the CEO so they're all on the wide body pay scale.

[co-joe]

Waiting for co-joe to comment on this.

He's been too busy today washing Brian's van and driving for Uber Eats to log in here.

I just love that our new pay scale has been the catalyst to better wages at Sunwing, Encore, and Porter in a matter of a few short weeks. Just imagine what WestJet, and Air Canada will be able to achieve now! C'mon Lynx, C'mon Jazz, C'mon Canadian North, you can do it! Cargojet and Morningstar you can too!

Just remember who the first airline to raise wages in 2023 was, and also remember who gets to renegotiate in 2 years and 10 months once all your chips are down. I dare all of you to go to the bargaining table knowing we'll be nipping at your heels in 2026. I'm so excited to be a part of this!

PS @#$! you Donald

[flyinhigh]

Air Transat has status pay. We have a narrow body pascale but nobody is on it since the 321 does the same work as the 330. All 321 pilots fly the NEO LR and the CEO so they're all on the wide body pay scale.

No, status pay is one payscale all around. TS use to have a narrowbody scale for the 37's and a wide body scale for the 321/330s. Two separate tiered payscales depending if you were narrow/wide body.

True status pay is one scale regardless if you would be narrow/wide body. Now it appears as status as everyone is on widebody pay due to, as you said, the type of flying. If TS brought in a smaller aircraft, like the 37, you can bet your butt that Annick would be bringing back they narrow body pay.

[TFTMB heavy]

Air Transat has status pay. We have a narrow body pascale but nobody is on it since the 321 does the same work as the 330. All 321 pilots fly the NEO LR and the CEO so they're all on the wide body pay scale.

No, status pay is one payscale all around. TS use to have a narrowbody scale for the 37's and a wide body scale for the 321/330s. Two separate tiered payscales depending if you were narrow/wide body.

True status pay is one scale regardless if you would be narrow/wide body. Now it appears as status as everyone is on widebody pay due to, as you said, the type of flying. If TS brought in a smaller aircraft, like the 37, you can bet your butt that Annick would be bringing back they narrow body pay.

Good job using more words to repeat what I posted! We didn’t waste any bargaining capital getting rid of the NB pay scale as nobody should be on it with the new business model and plan.

[Sharklasers]

Air Transat has status pay. We have a narrow body pascale but nobody is on it since the 321 does the same work as the 330. All 321 pilots fly the NEO LR and the CEO so they're all on the wide body pay scale.

No, status pay is one payscale all around. TS use to have a narrowbody scale for the 37's and a wide body scale for the 321/330s. Two separate tiered payscales depending if you were narrow/wide body.

True status pay is one scale regardless if you would be narrow/wide body. Now it appears as status as everyone is on widebody pay due to, as you said, the type of flying. If TS brought in a smaller aircraft, like the 37, you can bet your butt that Annick would be bringing back they narrow body pay.

Good job using more words to repeat what I posted! We didn’t waste any bargaining capital getting rid of the NB pay scale as nobody should be on it with the new business model and plan.

What happens when the A330s are parked, do you guys revert to the NB pay scale?

[TFTMB heavy]

No, status pay is one payscale all around. TS use to have a narrowbody scale for the 37's and a wide body scale for the 321/330s. Two separate tiered payscales depending if you were narrow/wide body.

True status pay is one scale regardless if you would be narrow/wide body. Now it appears as status as everyone is on widebody pay due to, as you said, the type of flying. If TS brought in a smaller aircraft, like the 37, you can bet your butt that Annick would be bringing back they narrow body pay.

Good job using more words to repeat what I posted! We didn’t waste any bargaining capital getting rid of the NB pay scale as nobody should be on it with the new business model and plan.

What happens when the A330s are parked, do you guys revert to the NB pay scale?

No, the scope of the mission dictates pay, not the aircraft..

[Vanguard]

Waiting for co-joe to comment on this.

He's been too busy today washing Brian's van and driving for Uber Eats to log in here.

I just love that our new pay scale has been the catalyst to better wages at Sunwing, Encore, and Porter in a matter of a few short weeks. Just imagine what WestJet, and Air Canada will be able to achieve now! C'mon Lynx, C'mon Jazz, C'mon Canadian North, you can do it! Cargojet and Morningstar you can too!

Just remember who the first airline to raise wages in 2023 was, and also remember who gets to renegotiate in 2 years and 10 months once all your chips are down. I dare all of you to go to the bargaining table knowing we'll be nipping at your heels in 2026. I'm so excited to be a part of this!

PS @#$! you Donald

You are one next level of idiot.

FLAIR IS THE FIRST AIRLINE TO ACCEPT THE WORST CONTRACT OF CANADIAN AVIATION IN 2023.


PORTER WASN'T EVEN IN NEGOTIATIONS.

Enjoy your green uniforms and ugly airplanes and management that seems to fly in their own world. You will be once again the lowest paid 737 pilots of the world. You had your chance and you blew it and every flair pilot should be ashamed. There is no long term prospect. Keep up those roadshows and free PPCs for everyone. Air Canada has their short course program PPC transfer going through right now and I imagine when they get a proper contract and wage increases, Flair will be left behind once again.

[GRK2]

Got a PFO did ya?

[co-joe]

Got a PFO did ya?

Must be.

[Vanguard]

LOL me getting a PFO.

Don’t kid yourself. My career is set. I know for a fact some of the names running in Flair management who had their resumes in at certain big airlines
who actually did get PFOs. If that gives you an idea. Don't fool yourselves. You guys made a big mistake and we told you - time will tell. It's just happening quite fast that you're going to regret this 6 months into your own contract.

[the_new_guy]

LOL me getting a PFO.

Don’t kid yourself. My career is set. I know for a fact some of the names running in Flair management who had their resumes in at certain big airlines
who actually did get PFOs. If that gives you an idea. Don't fool yourselves. You guys made a big mistake and we told you - time will tell. It's just happening quite fast that you're going to regret this 6 months into your own contract.

I don't know if you realize it or not, so I'm just going to say it: lots of the pilot group didn't vote for it. And parts of who voted the new contract in were sort of scared of not doing it because of how it was presented. Then there's the ones who wanted the money in retro pay so just that made them say yes.

That being said, you seem to be very knowledgeable of the company, yet you don't work at flair. If all you know of the company is a couple of managers who you claim got pfoed and barely anything else really, by all means give your opinion but without facts, names, or anything solid really you should at least try and not let your apparent anger write your comments for you. If that is not what makes you write your comments about flair, then I stand corrected. But it looks like it.

I have expressed my opinions and gave facts here on a couple of threads. Good and bad. I don't care about the new contract, I made that clear I think it's a bad one. Good for you if you have a career well set, and you are right time will tell if the flair gamble works. I have decided for my part that I'll take the gamble. And I don't like the new contract, I voted against it, but I like the company. I like the people I work with. And that's enough for some, and it isn't for others and that's fair.

We should have done better on the contract and if that's what bothers you, by all mean say so. But at least do it with respect and professionalism.

That goes for everyone.

[Vanguard]

LOL me getting a PFO.

Don’t kid yourself. My career is set. I know for a fact some of the names running in Flair management who had their resumes in at certain big airlines
who actually did get PFOs. If that gives you an idea. Don't fool yourselves. You guys made a big mistake and we told you - time will tell. It's just happening quite fast that you're going to regret this 6 months into your own contract.

I don't know if you realize it or not, so I'm just going to say it: lots of the pilot group didn't vote for it. And parts of who voted the new contract in were sort of scared of not doing it because of how it was presented. Then there's the ones who wanted the money in retro pay so just that made them say yes.

That being said, you seem to be very knowledgeable of the company, yet you don't work at flair. If all you know of the company is a couple of managers who you claim got pfoed and barely anything else really, by all means give your opinion but without facts, names, or anything solid really you should at least try and not let your apparent anger write your comments for you. If that is not what makes you write your comments about flair, then I stand corrected. But it looks like it.

I have expressed my opinions and gave facts here on a couple of threads. Good and bad. I don't care about the new contract, I made that clear I think it's a bad one. Good for you if you have a career well set, and you are right time will tell if the flair gamble works. I have decided for my part that I'll take the gamble. And I don't like the new contract, I voted against it, but I like the company. I like the people I work with. And that's enough for some, and it isn't for others and that's fair.

We should have done better on the contract and if that's what bothers you, by all mean say so. But at least do it with respect and professionalism.

That goes for everyone.

I respect your online professionalism however just saying "lots of the pilot group didn't vote for it" clears everything'? That is the true problem. co-joe/tbay sits here defending management and this contract, claiming it to be "paving the road for other airlines". If anything that is the most absurd thing I have ever heard and the fact that he believes it when he says it makes me want to spit in my own coffee. Flair pilots had a chance of a lifetime to make a difference instead pilots on their management team and some who have come in from aboard beaten so hard by their desert friends have become so desperate they'd be willing to take anything to get that left seat job on a 737 even if it means corroding the rest of the industry and accepting the lowest 737 wages on the planet. I guess there's always Swoop as well but that is a different beast...but funny enough many of the Flair management were actually the scabs used to start Swoop eroding 737 wages in Canada. Do you see the pattern? These guys only think of themselves. If anyone wants to know - they can read the multiple posts from many others who have proven how bad this contract is. Don't take only my word for it. People have spent more time analyzing it all.

So now that these guy have some control and are in management with money being thrown at them. They sold you a shit contract and that's all that can be said but the pilots did have a chance to vote. When only 60% of your pilots vote for a contract that in it's own is already a failure of the pilot group. Your union is only as strong as your membership. Unfortunately Flair might be a career stop for you but to sell it for a other pilots is absolutely disservice as was having a Captain Rep representing your First Officers. That turned out so well for them didn't it.

At some point the music will stop and we will see what happens when the dust settles. Liking the company is something I can appreciate - let me correct that - you like the people, your coworkers and friends possibly. I can even respect that because you will all round together to deal with the shit sandwich you've been given however don't let it blind you from the truth and don't sell it to others if your own position prevents you from making any moves.

I will wish the Pilots well who are stuck in their own situations, I get you have to feed your families, however I have no respect for the scabs who set this all up for you and continue to defend it.

[the_new_guy]

I respect your online professionalism however just saying "lots of the pilot group didn't vote for it" clears everything'? That is the true problem. co-joe/tbay sits here defending management and this contract, claiming it to be "paving the road for other airlines". If anything that is the most absurd thing I have ever heard and the fact that he believes it when he says it makes me want to spit in my own coffee. Flair pilots had a chance of a lifetime to make a difference instead pilots on their management team and some who have come in from aboard beaten so hard by their desert friends have become so desperate they'd be willing to take anything to get that left seat job on a 737 even if it means corroding the rest of the industry and accepting the lowest 737 wages on the planet. I guess there's always Swoop as well but that is a different beast...but funny enough many of the Flair management were actually the scabs used to start Swoop eroding 737 wages in Canada. Do you see the pattern? These guys only think of themselves. If anyone wants to know - they can read the multiple posts from many others who have proven how bad this contract is. Don't take only my word for it. People have spent more time analyzing it all.

So now that these guy have some control and are in management with money being thrown at them. They sold you a shit contract and that's all that can be said but the pilots did have a chance to vote. When only 60% of your pilots vote for a contract that in it's own is already a failure of the pilot group. Your union is only as strong as your membership. Unfortunately Flair might be a career stop for you but to sell it for a other pilots is absolutely disservice as was having a Captain Rep representing your First Officers. That turned out so well for them didn't it.

At some point the music will stop and we will see what happens when the dust settles. Liking the company is something I can appreciate - let me correct that - you like the people, your coworkers and friends possibly. I can even respect that because you will all round together to deal with the shit sandwich you've been given however don't let it blind you from the truth and don't sell it to others if your own position prevents you from making any moves.

I will wish the Pilots well who are stuck in their own situations, I get you have to feed your families, however I have no respect for the scabs who set this all up for you and continue to defend it.

I can get behind some/most of what you said here. I'm not a salesman, I always give the facts to anyone asking and I did just that in other threads regarding the actual job for potential candidates asking.

And I don't pretend the contract is ok. We saw a great opportunity and let it slip right through our hands. Moreover I'm the first to say our MEC is not composed of the right people for the job. Long time company men that have at heart the company's well-being. They do defend and put forth grievances for the membership when it's called for, but they were not the guys needed to go out and negotiate with the company on behalf of the membership. Like you said, the FOs rep is a captain. Senior one at that.. Makes absolutely no sense whichever way you see it.

I really could go on and on, but I did already in another page of this forum and got into it in depth.

It was an advantage to the company having those reps at the table. It also was an advantage to the company having lots of expats in the pilot group, that I think you're right.

You can see here I agree with you on just about everything really. Not sure I would insult some of the management, but I don't know them the way you do or the way I think you do.

Anyway, that's enough of me here. Just keep it classy a bit, if I could ask for a favour. Not that you owe me one!

Cheers