Yolked wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:53 pm
Everyone in my class was hired less than a year ago and many are already fed up. Anyone else sick of surviving on canned soup?
I am curious Yolked, maybe tell the audience what your major complaint is? Not a Triple 7 Captain yet?
News Flash - only a short time ago it was a couple years "ramping" in the Arctic waiting for a flying seat. Then a few years flying Medivacs in the middle of the night as a co-pilot.
Maybe a left seat on a King Air.....then..... a Dash 8 Job at Jazz. Finally a Major Airline job by about 7000 Hours and 10 years in the industry.
Fast forward to 2023, Jazz with 250 hours, free clean White Shirt, no loading a patient that put a shot gun in their mouth into the back of a beat up King Air in -40.
How fed up are you?
Haha. Almost word for word my career. Tylenol overdose at 2 am in Resolute Bay. Here's the keys, bring 'er back in one piece.
I am curious Yolked, maybe tell the audience what your major complaint is? Not a Triple 7 Captain yet?
News Flash - only a short time ago it was a couple years "ramping" in the Arctic waiting for a flying seat. Then a few years flying Medivacs in the middle of the night as a co-pilot.
Maybe a left seat on a King Air.....then..... a Dash 8 Job at Jazz. Finally a Major Airline job by about 7000 Hours and 10 years in the industry.
Fast forward to 2023, Jazz with 250 hours, free clean White Shirt, no loading a patient that put a shot gun in their mouth into the back of a beat up King Air in -40.
How fed up are you?
Gotta love the logic of, "I had to eat shit for X amount of time so should you!"
Someone on a different thread brought up a good point. Its partly due to people like you that were willing to do non pilot related jobs, fly unsafe equipment and put up with all sorts of shit just so you could fly a nice shiny jet one day, that the industry is in the condition it is. It is people like you that showed management types that they could mop the floor with pilots and they'd still bend over and ask for more.
The young kids that you love to make fun of so much, seem to have the balls to say no to shitty work and work conditions. Something you never had the courage to do.
But thats what bothers you, isn't it? How can some young buck who "doesn't know jack shit" have the courage to do something you only dreamed about. These kids are doing what you told yourself you would have done while taking that hot shower at the end of a 17 hour day, "I should have said this and that when he told me to do X" Only to go and do it all over again the next day.
Except they aren’t saying no, they are lining up to be first in line for a shot at four years of flat pay and the only reason they’re bitching is because they aren’t at AC yet.
If they were, the shit conditions would only be reflected upon as the price they had to pay to get to AC.
You’ve got pilots on the AC forum saying they would apply if it wasn’t a pay cut and others warning about waiting having consequences of being junior to 500-2000 pilots who didn’t wait.
They're saying no to the myriad of horrible northern employers the old guard sees as a badge of honour having to endure. They don't realize that it's only a reflection of how submissive they really are.
Like RoAF-Mig21 said, many are quick to judge the new generation without taking the time to consider their struggles. Every generation had theirs, but I can't think of any that post WW2 had a combination of low paying jobs and extremely high cost of living. Everything from housing, food, transportation, education, etc. The only reason they're bitching about being stuck at Jazz is because of the horrible place the old generation turned it into. Jazz used to be a career destination. Who voted in the new payscales and ever dwindling benefits? Sure wasn't the kid just getting on the Dash straight off of flight school. It was the boomers that are quick to say "You didn't have to take the job". Imagine that! Systematically sabotaging the job over the years for the new genertion, only to wash themselves of any responsibility by saying no one forced you to take it.
Yeah, how dare the young kid that has to pay through the nose for everything want to get on the ladder to a high paying job as soon as possible. What a fucking asshole, eh?
Yolked wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:53 pm
Everyone in my class was hired less than a year ago and many are already fed up. Anyone else sick of surviving on canned soup?
I am curious Yolked, maybe tell the audience what your major complaint is? Not a Triple 7 Captain yet?
News Flash - only a short time ago it was a couple years "ramping" in the Arctic waiting for a flying seat. Then a few years flying Medivacs in the middle of the night as a co-pilot.
Maybe a left seat on a King Air.....then..... a Dash 8 Job at Jazz. Finally a Major Airline job by about 7000 Hours and 10 years in the industry.
Fast forward to 2023, Jazz with 250 hours, free clean White Shirt, no loading a patient that put a shot gun in their mouth into the back of a beat up King Air in -40.
How fed up are you?
Gotta love the logic of, "I had to eat shit for X amount of time so should you!"
Someone on a different thread brought up a good point. Its partly due to people like you that were willing to do non pilot related jobs, fly unsafe equipment and put up with all sorts of shit just so you could fly a nice shiny jet one day, that the industry is in the condition it is. It is people like you that showed management types that they could mop the floor with pilots and they'd still bend over and ask for more.
The young kids that you love to make fun of so much, seem to have the balls to say no to shitty work and work conditions. Something you never had the courage to do.
But thats what bothers you, isn't it? How can some young buck who "doesn't know jack shit" have the courage to do something you only dreamed about. These kids are doing what you told yourself you would have done while taking that hot shower at the end of a 17 hour day, "I should have said this and that when he told me to do X" Only to go and do it all over again the next day.
Gotta love the logic of, "I had to eat shit for X amount of time so should you!"
Someone on a different thread brought up a good point. Its partly due to people like you that were willing to do non pilot related jobs, fly unsafe equipment and put up with all sorts of shit just so you could fly a nice shiny jet one day, that the industry is in the condition it is. It is people like you that showed management types that they could mop the floor with pilots and they'd still bend over and ask for more.
The young kids that you love to make fun of so much, seem to have the balls to say no to shitty work and work conditions. Something you never had the courage to do.
But thats what bothers you, isn't it? How can some young buck who "doesn't know jack shit" have the courage to do something you only dreamed about. These kids are doing what you told yourself you would have done while taking that hot shower at the end of a 17 hour day, "I should have said this and that when he told me to do X" Only to go and do it all over again the next day.
A reply to the quote above:
The "Old Guard" isn't bothered by the NexGen of pilots, they are a constant source of comic relief. What the Old Guard is "in awe" of is the hypocrisy and entitlement of the NexGen. One of the best examples and likely what could be an immediate game changer is how quickly "open flying" get snatched up; leave it on the table, let the flights go uncovered. Forcing the cancellation of some flights is something everyone can do at all paygrades. It will have an immediate impact; it's a legitimate response, not a "job action". From what I've witnessed it's predominately the NexGen that is sopping up the open time and the logic for doing so no different than the logic applied by the Old Guard, back in the day.
I fully understand why a junior FO needs to pick up this flying, its that or KD for dinner in their parents basement apartment. The same can't be said for a Skipper at any paygrade, show some of this "courage" your claiming to have. That NexGen skipper is no better than the Old Guard that "paid their dues" in a differ way at a different time in the industry.
Loon-A-Tic wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:49 am
Gotta love the logic of, "I had to eat shit for X amount of time so should you!"
Someone on a different thread brought up a good point. Its partly due to people like you that were willing to do non pilot related jobs, fly unsafe equipment and put up with all sorts of shit just so you could fly a nice shiny jet one day, that the industry is in the condition it is. It is people like you that showed management types that they could mop the floor with pilots and they'd still bend over and ask for more.
The young kids that you love to make fun of so much, seem to have the balls to say no to shitty work and work conditions. Something you never had the courage to do.
But thats what bothers you, isn't it? How can some young buck who "doesn't know jack shit" have the courage to do something you only dreamed about. These kids are doing what you told yourself you would have done while taking that hot shower at the end of a 17 hour day, "I should have said this and that when he told me to do X" Only to go and do it all over again the next day.
A reply to the quote above:
The "Old Guard" isn't bothered by the NexGen of pilots, they are a constant source of comic relief. What the Old Guard is "in awe" of is the hypocrisy and entitlement of the NexGen. One of the best examples and likely what could be an immediate game changer is how quickly "open flying" get snatched up; leave it on the table, let the flights go uncovered. Forcing the cancellation of some flights is something everyone can do at all paygrades. It will have an immediate impact; it's a legitimate response, not a "job action". From what I've witnessed it's predominately the NexGen that is sopping up the open time and the logic for doing so no different than the logic applied by the Old Guard, back in the day.
I fully understand why a junior FO needs to pick up this flying, its that or KD for dinner in their parents basement apartment. The same can't be said for a Skipper at any paygrade, show some of this "courage" your claiming to have. That NexGen skipper is no better than the Old Guard that "paid their dues" in a differ way at a different time in the industry.
Funny, I've noticed the opposite. More often than not, it seems to be that senior FO thats quick to say "I stayed here for lifestyle reasons" without being asked. We all know why you stayed there, Bob. You're not fooling anyone. That and senior skippers that just can't get enough of that juicy OT rate.
I fully understand why they need to pick up this flying, its that or not having any semblance of a decent life after their 3rd wife.
Loon-A-Tic wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:49 am
Gotta love the logic of, "I had to eat shit for X amount of time so should you!"
Someone on a different thread brought up a good point. Its partly due to people like you that were willing to do non pilot related jobs, fly unsafe equipment and put up with all sorts of shit just so you could fly a nice shiny jet one day, that the industry is in the condition it is. It is people like you that showed management types that they could mop the floor with pilots and they'd still bend over and ask for more.
The young kids that you love to make fun of so much, seem to have the balls to say no to shitty work and work conditions. Something you never had the courage to do.
But thats what bothers you, isn't it? How can some young buck who "doesn't know jack shit" have the courage to do something you only dreamed about. These kids are doing what you told yourself you would have done while taking that hot shower at the end of a 17 hour day, "I should have said this and that when he told me to do X" Only to go and do it all over again the next day.
A reply to the quote above:
The "Old Guard" isn't bothered by the NexGen of pilots, they are a constant source of comic relief. What the Old Guard is "in awe" of is the hypocrisy and entitlement of the NexGen. One of the best examples and likely what could be an immediate game changer is how quickly "open flying" get snatched up; leave it on the table, let the flights go uncovered. Forcing the cancellation of some flights is something everyone can do at all paygrades. It will have an immediate impact; it's a legitimate response, not a "job action". From what I've witnessed it's predominately the NexGen that is sopping up the open time and the logic for doing so no different than the logic applied by the Old Guard, back in the day.
I fully understand why a junior FO needs to pick up this flying, its that or KD for dinner in their parents basement apartment. The same can't be said for a Skipper at any paygrade, show some of this "courage" your claiming to have. That NexGen skipper is no better than the Old Guard that "paid their dues" in a differ way at a different time in the industry.
Funny, I've noticed the opposite. More often than not, it seems to be that senior FO thats quick to say "I stayed here for lifestyle reasons" without being asked. We all know why you stayed there, Bob. You're not fooling anyone. That and senior skippers that just can't get enough of that juicy OT rate.
I fully understand why they need to pick up this flying, its that or not having any semblance of a decent life after their 3rd wife.
I hate to disappoint you but the name isn't Bob, Robert or any other version of that, you "outed" the wrong guy.
Loon-A-Tic wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:49 am
Gotta love the logic of, "I had to eat shit for X amount of time so should you!"
Someone on a different thread brought up a good point. Its partly due to people like you that were willing to do non pilot related jobs, fly unsafe equipment and put up with all sorts of shit just so you could fly a nice shiny jet one day, that the industry is in the condition it is. It is people like you that showed management types that they could mop the floor with pilots and they'd still bend over and ask for more.
The young kids that you love to make fun of so much, seem to have the balls to say no to shitty work and work conditions. Something you never had the courage to do.
But thats what bothers you, isn't it? How can some young buck who "doesn't know jack shit" have the courage to do something you only dreamed about. These kids are doing what you told yourself you would have done while taking that hot shower at the end of a 17 hour day, "I should have said this and that when he told me to do X" Only to go and do it all over again the next day.
A reply to the quote above:
The "Old Guard" isn't bothered by the NexGen of pilots, they are a constant source of comic relief. What the Old Guard is "in awe" of is the hypocrisy and entitlement of the NexGen. One of the best examples and likely what could be an immediate game changer is how quickly "open flying" get snatched up; leave it on the table, let the flights go uncovered. Forcing the cancellation of some flights is something everyone can do at all paygrades. It will have an immediate impact; it's a legitimate response, not a "job action". From what I've witnessed it's predominately the NexGen that is sopping up the open time and the logic for doing so no different than the logic applied by the Old Guard, back in the day.
I fully understand why a junior FO needs to pick up this flying, its that or KD for dinner in their parents basement apartment. The same can't be said for a Skipper at any paygrade, show some of this "courage" your claiming to have. That NexGen skipper is no better than the Old Guard that "paid their dues" in a differ way at a different time in the industry.
Funny, I've noticed the opposite. More often than not, it seems to be that senior FO thats quick to say "I stayed here for lifestyle reasons" without being asked. We all know why you stayed there, Bob. You're not fooling anyone. That and senior skippers that just can't get enough of that juicy OT rate.
I fully understand why they need to pick up this flying, its that or not having any semblance of a decent life after their 3rd wife.
I hate to disappoint you but the name isn't Bob, Robert or any other version of that, you "outed" the wrong guy.
I was using a generic name. Wasn't trying to out anyone.
Funny, I've noticed the opposite. More often than not, it seems to be that senior FO thats quick to say "I stayed here for lifestyle reasons" without being asked. We all know why you stayed there, Bob. You're not fooling anyone. That and senior skippers that just can't get enough of that juicy OT rate.
I fully understand why they need to pick up this flying, its that or not having any semblance of a decent life after their 3rd wife.
I hate to disappoint you but the name isn't Bob, Robert or any other version of that, you "outed" the wrong guy.
I was using a generic name. Wasn't trying to out anyone.
This "Old Guard" hasn't done one second of OT at any juicy rate ever. I stand by my comments the sooner pilots stop snatching the "open time" like Piranha's and operations has to start cancelling flight the sooner some change will start happening.
Giving up the market share to competition, while simultaneously bleeding pilots to that competition, isn't a plan. It's incompetence. And there seems to be a lot of that at AC these days.
Is it really losing market share? Aren't they just pulling out of the west to let Flair and WJ eat themselves, consolidate the East and come back once they have the manpower?
I would be more worried about Porter with the E2, they will have roughly the same routes as the 220.
Either way, things need to change, before July.
I heard Porter’s Q fleet is going to start operating out of YYZ. Between them and the E2, Jazz is in trouble. They can’t even get PPC’s and line checks done without the help of western captains coming over. Employees are leaving left and right for AC and anyone else who is paying more. It really is about the money, and Jazz is at the bottom with no light at the end of the tunnel.
Porter's new payscale is looking good
First year EMB CA 90K at Jazz vs 150k at Porter
Porter New Payscale.jpg (458.5 KiB) Viewed 2925 times
Is it really losing market share? Aren't they just pulling out of the west to let Flair and WJ eat themselves, consolidate the East and come back once they have the manpower?
I would be more worried about Porter with the E2, they will have roughly the same routes as the 220.
Either way, things need to change, before July.
I heard Porter’s Q fleet is going to start operating out of YYZ. Between them and the E2, Jazz is in trouble. They can’t even get PPC’s and line checks done without the help of western captains coming over. Employees are leaving left and right for AC and anyone else who is paying more. It really is about the money, and Jazz is at the bottom with no light at the end of the tunnel.
Porter's new payscale is looking good
First year EMB CA 90K at Jazz vs 150k at Porter
Porter New Payscale.jpg
No.. it’s not. It’s better but not great. I’m going to hazard a guess these folks have 2-5000 hours. The Q400 pay is a joke.
Keep in mind, I can make Q400 captain pay after a year as a tree faller. (1-12 month of education) I don’t take successive pay cuts. ( pay cuts with each lateral move) Once im certified, that’s it. No more pay cuts moving up.. or across just raises.
I’m assuming someone coming from say Q400 FO at Jazz to Q400 FO at porter would be starting at year 1.
People in this industry have stockholms syndrome … they’ve been abused so long they don’t know any different.
Also, have a look at the meter reader post 70k to read a hydro meter.
Parking enforcement workers make 70k where I live.
Yolked wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:53 pm
Everyone in my class was hired less than a year ago and many are already fed up. Anyone else sick of surviving on canned soup?
I am curious Yolked, maybe tell the audience what your major complaint is? Not a Triple 7 Captain yet?
News Flash - only a short time ago it was a couple years "ramping" in the Arctic waiting for a flying seat. Then a few years flying Medivacs in the middle of the night as a co-pilot.
Maybe a left seat on a King Air.....then..... a Dash 8 Job at Jazz. Finally a Major Airline job by about 7000 Hours and 10 years in the industry.
Fast forward to 2023, Jazz with 250 hours, free clean White Shirt, no loading a patient that put a shot gun in their mouth into the back of a beat up King Air in -40.
How fed up are you?
In what world is it justifiable to pay an Airline Transport Pilot with quality training and experience less than 65K a year AT A MINIMUM. I could get a job fresh out of high school that would pay more than the starting FO salary at most regionals in Canada. Yes, it has always been this way and yes, you likely were paid even less. The industry is moving faster than it ever has, men and women are getting into the 705 world faster than you did - but your jealousy and bitterness doesn't need to reflect that of management paying us pennies. I can't afford a home, I can't afford an apartment, I can't afford a car, I can't afford a family, I can't afford a life. New hires at Jazz will never make what senior captains are making on the old contract, they have fully embraced the "stepping stone" mentality to justify the shit pay while they roll in it. The quantity and quality of pilots is deteriorating, the time for change is now. All of us have worked too hard for too long to accept this.
At least when I was a year 1 FO flying medevacs in NWT I was able to afford both rent *and* food which I do not believe is the case if you’re a Jazz year 1-4 FO in YYZ or YVR regardless if you live at your base or commute.
In fact, accounting for inflation and housing there’s a significant gap between a 2013 FO earning 55k in the North vs a 2023 FO earning 42k and on reserve (not that per diem should be considered income anyhow) in YVR. On top of having a shitty schedule when you’re junior. And even with a quick upgrade, a BOTL capt is a miserable life at Jazz, especially as a commuter, especially when you can make more as a year 1 FO at CJ, SWG, F8, Transat, Porter on the E2, etc
But then again, remember this dishonourable 19 year payscale contract was voted on by pilots so ...
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Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:56 pm
I heard jazz is losing a pilot a day to NON-AC airlines. Any truth to this? Cuz if yes, this is a full blown evacuation.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:56 pm
I heard jazz is losing a pilot a day to NON-AC airlines. Any truth to this? Cuz if yes, this is a full blown evacuation.
At least.
Attrition (including AC) must be 50+ per month.
By way of comparison, I know a Skywest new-hire that moved up 1400 numbers in 8 months. Then he became one of the 1400 that left. Everything is relative. Lots of (better) opportunities out there.
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 4:52 pm
No news, lowest industry pay, and no real concern from parties involved regarding pay will do that to an employee group.
Agreed. But the question is…. How long will the inaction continue.
CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:45 pm
[quote=canadian_aviator_4 post_id=<a href="tel:1243925">1243925</a> time=<a href="tel:1678405924">1678405924</a> user_id=90444]
No news, lowest industry pay, and no real concern from parties involved regarding pay will do that to an employee group.
Agreed. But the question is…. How long will the inaction continue.
[/quote]
That’s one bet not many are willing to take, and for good reason. Just look at how many are leaving and how difficult Jazz finds it to staff flying, to the point of significantly reducing flying.
I’m curious how a class action lawsuit would go with AC/ACPA. we can’t sue our employers(Jazz) with ALPA but can totally sue other employers that we had an agreement with. Anyone talk to an employment lawyer?
Nick678 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:37 am
I’m curious how a class action lawsuit would go with AC/ACPA. we can’t sue our employers(Jazz) with ALPA but can totally sue other employers that we had an agreement with. Anyone talk to an employment lawyer?
Nick678 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:37 am
I’m curious how a class action lawsuit would go with AC/ACPA. we can’t sue our employers(Jazz) with ALPA but can totally sue other employers that we had an agreement with. Anyone talk to an employment lawyer?
Has nothing to do with ACPA. The agreement in principle was with the company. Jazz isn’t going to bite the hand that feeds them, it won’t go anywhere.
Management doesn’t see pilots flowing to AC as an issue, it goes unnoticed. Now they’re seeing pilots flowing to other airlines besides AC, and it’s being noticed. They know what’s going on and what needs to be done, it’s just a matter of time.
Malfunction wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:31 pm
Rumore going around all cpts will be able to give picus.
If the union gave on that maybe a deal is being made?
PICUS is company policy, has nothing to do with them Union. They could probably allow any CA to do it, but will the CAs actually do it? Would there Union tell them not to? Who knows.
Just another way for the company to get around paying training staff
When PICUS was implemented at Encore several years ago the company asked captains to fill out a form for FOs, not even offering any extra pay/stipend. Needless to say it didn’t end up happening.
PICUS is ridiculous by definition - you’re either PIC with all the responsibility that entails, or you’re not. It’s a program designed to bypass the outdated ATPL PIC requirements, and exists to help out the company. If management wants to take advantage of it, then they can pay up. I’d be asking for hundreds of extra dollars a day to assume the role of a training captain and the associated paperwork that entails.
