Instrument rating credit for CPL

[Bede]

If an applicant has an instrument rating, they are deemed to have met the 20 hrs instrument time requirement for the CPL.

(c) Experience – Same Category – Instrument Rating
An applicant who holds an instrument rating in the aeroplane category is considered to have met the 20 hours dual instrument flight requirement of subclause 421.30(4)(a)(ii)(A)(III).

Is this interpreted that this also reduces the 35 hours of dual time to 15 hours (because of the 20 hour credit) or does the applicant still require a total of 35 hours dual (albeit with no instrument time)?

Division VII - Commercial Pilot Licence
421.30 Aeroplanes - Requirements
(4) Experience
(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;
(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and
(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be
conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.

[nbinont]

Personally I would interpret it to mean that the applicant can count the instrument rating as 20 hours of instrument time towards all applicable requirements under 421.30(4).

So, assuming a fresh PPL with IR decides to begin training for CPL, they immediately have 20 of their 421.30(4) hour requirement met due to the 421.30(7)(c)Experience – Same Category – Instrument Rating Credit.

To me, this is the most reasonable interpretation, as they certainly received instruction (from an instructor or authorized person) to obtain their IR.

[photofly]

For the instrument rating only 5 hours of the required 40 hours is required to be dual time with the holder of an instructor rating, 15 can be with a "qualified person" as defined in 425.21(9), and the remaining 20 hours can be practice time, unsupervised, with a safety observer.

Typically the first 5 hours of instrument time that are credited towards an instrument rating are done as part of the PPL, so in gaining an instrument rating there is actually no requirement for any extra time at all to be flown with a qualified flight instructor.

The credit for the holder of an instrument rating towards the CPL is specifically applied to 421.30(4)(a)(ii)(A)(III) not to 421.30(4)(a)(ii)(A) overall. So I would say that the 35 hours dual-with-instructor requirement for the CPL remains in place regardless of any credit for dual instrument hours. That is, if the instrument rating requirement was done with 5 hours instrument time as part of a PPL, and (at least) 15 further hours with the holder of a flight instructor rating then only a further 20 hours dual with a flight instructor needs to be flown - the total dual time flown with an instructor then being 35.

However if the holder of the instrument rating took credit for 5 hours instrument time as part of their PPL, and 15 or more further hours with a qualified person that person not holding an instructor rating - and no further time with an instructor - then none of that time can be counted against the 35 hours of dual which have to be with an instructor, post PPL. A full 35 hours of dual time would need to be flown with an instructor to qualify for a CPL, albeit none of it required to be instrument time, that requirement (alone) having been met by the credit.

Intermediate situations would be treated on a pro-rata basis.

Putting it another way, you cannot use an instrument rating to reduce the 35 hours dual required with an instructor.

I hope that makes sense - and is only my inexpert opinion. I would email TC licensing and find out what they say, because theirs is the only opinion that counts!

However - as a counterargument, you could say that if my interpretation was correct, there would be no need for the credit at all, since any dual time instrument time flown with an instructor would inevitably be credited against 421.30(4)(a)(ii)(A)(III) regardless of whether an instrument rating had been obtained in the interim or not. So perhaps the purpose of the credit is to allow the dual instrument time with a "qualified person" to substitute for dual instrument time with an instructor, in the eventuality that an IR had been obtained on the basis of that time.

There you are - two answers for the price of one, and you're welcome.

[Bede]

I think I'll just have to email transport.

[photofly]

I think I'll just have to email transport.

Yup, probably best.

Incidentally - with regard to 421.30(4)(a)(ii)(A)(III) - are there any other areas of federal regulation that descend to 5 levels of nested subordinate clauses? Or just the CARs?

[ruffdeezy]

35 dual instruction still required. Many people do the training at the same time but if not done that way 35 still required. If you had done 10 of the 20 on a FTD, the time wouldn't go from 35 to 25 in an aircraft. Since the instrument training time is dual training post PPL, you might be able to include that as a part of the time.

[Fly0nTheWall]

I've actually just encountered a similar situation myself and asked TC for clarification. Student has PPL and obtained a Night Rating before starting CPL training. I asked TC whether the student still has to do 10h night (5h dual, 5h solo) towards the CPL Experience Requirements. TC's answer was that since they already have a night rating, and since a night rating has to be done with a Flight Instructor, I can write the night time into the students new CPL PTR and that will be credited towards the 35h dual and night time experience requirements. I'm not sure if TC will hold the same standard for instrument time, since it's not a guarantee that all of the instrument time was done with a Flight Instructor.

[bwgilchrist]

When I started my night rating, my instructor opened a CPL per for me since the NR is part of the CPL. My next step is the IR and I plan on using it to cover the CPL instrument requirements. I don’t expect that it will eliminate all the dual time, just the instrument time

[Bede]

From TC

No, the credit does not reduce the 35hr dual requirement.

Of the 35hrs dual requirement, a max of 10 can be IFR sim.