Flair Airlines - Planes seized

[Splash]

More curious to see what the leaser will do with the four aircraft they seized

Not meaning to nitpick, but in respect to a lease there are two parties, the lessee and the lessor.

[CpnCrunch]

if they continue as a going concern it wasn’t as bad as initially thought and all current Flair pilots keep their jobs.
Which makes it more upsetting that the FOs who were counting on quick upgrades, may be waiting longer than they planned when agreeing to the contract.

Well it will still have severely dented their reputation, which wasn't too spectacular already.

[CaptDukeNukem]

More curious to see what the leaser will do with the four aircraft they seized

Not meaning to nitpick, but in respect to a lease there are two parties, the lessee and the lessor.

Yes, and one of those parties has been removed. So the “lessor” who owns the aircraft, will probably want to find something to do with their assets. Which is what the poster is asking I believe. The previous lease agreement has been terminated, hence the seizure.

Please don’t tell me you’re one of those people who nitpick about “FLAP 2” versus “FLAPS 2” sop calls. We all know what is being said.

[rookiepilot]

One hedge fund cockroach sees a better income for his planes somewhere else & takes them back,another sees a chance to make money & leases them aircraft to replace these - looks like a normal day.

In business, the roach is one who doesn’t pay their bills.

Flair CEO says rival tried to claim seized jets: ‘People want us out of business’

https://globalnews.ca/news/9548294/flai ... ase-rival/

The behaviours to date would say that it would be a tough road to see them back down. This sort of precipitous hedge-fund behaviour makes negotiations tough,” he said, expressing doubt about retrieving the locked-up jetliners from Airborne Capital.

Jones did not answer directly whether other payments have been overdue in the past six months: “There’s no business, really, that doesn’t have some delays.”

RRRRRRRROOOOOOOACH………..

[MKFlair]

No cash for fuel at airports. The airports themselves are irrelevant as its it the fuel provider (Shell etc) that provide fuel across the country. The into plane providers work at the behest of the oil companies and paid by them who, in turn, invoice the airlines.

Second rumor - if the other lessors are 'concerned' they would pull their aircraft as soon as they are not paid. No one has done so. If in the next week we don't see other lessors 'seizing' their aircraft then it lends credence to the fact that leases are being paid.

The building has caught fire, there are flames everywhere and you’re telling everyone not to panic.

A company has to pay their employees. Next they should be paying their lessors. There’s been issues with both these receiving their money now, so what about contracts further down the list like fuel, de-ice, grooming, catering, maintenance, Navcanada and others? If the employees are being stiffed for OT and the lessors are grounding planes, then I can’t imagine the rest are being paid when they’re supposed to either.

But maybe I’m wrong. Would I apply to Flair? No. Would I book a flight on Flair? No. Would I recommend any friends/family book with Flair? No.

Flair has always paid salaries on time. The CEO was clear that the actions of the lessor were well outside industry standard and lessors don’t act that way. There is more to this than meets the eye. No lessor pulls aircraft without a plan. Airbourne has over 20 aircraft with WJ……….and this week WJ will be announcing significant layoffs. An attempt to deflect the media? Time will tell and Flair will still be around this summer….. and next year….. and the year after.

No other lessors have pulled their aircraft. Fuel companies have not changed their terms. Employees will be paid this week.

The naysayers on here are motivated to disparage Flair as they work for the competition. They’ve been spouting the same for years and yet here Flair is.

Let’s call it what it is - WJ is running scared and can’t compete with Flair on cost and can’t compete with AC on value and revenue. They are stuck in the middle which is a bad place to be. They have pulled out of the East. This week they will begin the cutting (cutting customer service, loyalty, outsourcing safety - as a start). Their CEO has essentially told the pilots to bugger off. There will be more cuts - I’d guess the 787s will be gone by next summer.

Keep trying to convince yourselves that you’re smarter than the money behind flair, that Canada is ‘special’ and can’t sustain a ULCc…………I’d bet on Flair.

[braaap Braap]

Flair has always paid salaries on time. The CEO was clear that the actions of the lessor were well outside industry standard and lessors don’t act that way. There is more to this than meets the eye. No lessor pulls aircraft without a plan. Airbourne has over 20 aircraft with WJ……….and this week WJ will be announcing significant layoffs. An attempt to deflect the media? Time will tell and Flair will still be around this summer….. and next year….. and the year after.

No other lessors have pulled their aircraft. Fuel companies have not changed their terms. Employees will be paid this week.

The naysayers on here are motivated to disparage Flair as they work for the competition. They’ve been spouting the same for years and yet here Flair is.

Let’s call it what it is - WJ is running scared and can’t compete with Flair on cost and can’t compete with AC on value and revenue. They are stuck in the middle which is a bad place to be. They have pulled out of the East. This week they will begin the cutting (cutting customer service, loyalty, outsourcing safety - as a start). Their CEO has essentially told the pilots to bugger off. There will be more cuts - I’d guess the 787s will be gone by next summer.

Keep trying to convince yourselves that you’re smarter than the money behind flair, that Canada is ‘special’ and can’t sustain a ULCc…………I’d bet on Flair.

Your bias is showing

[flying4dollars]

Flair has always paid salaries on time. The CEO was clear that the actions of the lessor were well outside industry standard and lessors don’t act that way. There is more to this than meets the eye. No lessor pulls aircraft without a plan. Airbourne has over 20 aircraft with WJ……….and this week WJ will be announcing significant layoffs. An attempt to deflect the media? Time will tell and Flair will still be around this summer….. and next year….. and the year after.

No other lessors have pulled their aircraft. Fuel companies have not changed their terms. Employees will be paid this week.

The naysayers on here are motivated to disparage Flair as they work for the competition. They’ve been spouting the same for years and yet here Flair is.

Let’s call it what it is - WJ is running scared and can’t compete with Flair on cost and can’t compete with AC on value and revenue. They are stuck in the middle which is a bad place to be. They have pulled out of the East. This week they will begin the cutting (cutting customer service, loyalty, outsourcing safety - as a start). Their CEO has essentially told the pilots to bugger off. There will be more cuts - I’d guess the 787s will be gone by next summer.

Keep trying to convince yourselves that you’re smarter than the money behind flair, that Canada is ‘special’ and can’t sustain a ULCc…………I’d bet on Flair.

Your bias is showing

Doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong though

[MAX8 Driver]

Flair has always paid salaries on time.

What about payroll "errors"? What about vacation pay from previous years? What about triple time owed? What about the vacation pay grievance this year? What about retro pay? Don't worry, it's coming in XX days.

Or do those not count? Arrears with lessors, maintenance, airports, employees...I bet Stephen Jones got his full pay this week. Again.

[CpnCrunch]

There's not really any excuse for being 5 days late on a critical payment. Companies with $100M+ revenue are very good at paying their bills, and have departments whose sole job it is to ensure the bills get paid on time, especially invoices for resources that are critical to their business that can get taken away at a moment's notice. It didn't take them very long to get the payment out the door after the planes were seized.

I also notice that Flair was telling passengers that the delay was "unanticipated maintenance delays within the airline’s control but required for safety", which is just a BS excuse to get out of paying APPR.

Consistent late payment is usually a bad omen.

[MKFlair]

Flair has always paid salaries on time.

What about payroll "errors"? What about vacation pay from previous years? What about triple time owed? What about the vacation pay grievance this year? What about retro pay? Don't worry, it's coming in XX days.

Or do those not count? Arrears with lessors, maintenance, airports, employees...I bet Stephen Jones got his full pay this week. Again.

Payroll errors - a number as the issues with NB have been on going. But always corrected. By the way, ask those who were massively over paid for months last year if the company ever ‘recouped’ that!

Vacation pay from previous years? Always paid.

Vacation pay grievance? Is being paid but some expected it in January. Where does it say that in the CBA?

Retro pay - as per the CBA. It was agreed to and will paid in as oer that agreement.

Facts vs innuendo.

[Fanblade]

We are really just going to have to watch how this plays out. It is entirely plausible that the leasing company took the opportunity Flair handed them, to reset the lease rate on those fins to todays reality. By the sounds of it the lessor had been shopping those aircraft around since last month. It is possible that this wasn’t a Flair short on cash story. It was maybe a lessor exploiting a slow payee as a way out. This is obviously the way Flair is trying to frame it. Nothing to see here. The lessor is a dick.

The fact that at least three fins have had their registration to Flair cancelled could easily be the lessor wanting to move out of the current arrangement. Flair said they paid. Maybe they did. Maybe the lessor wants out and said see ya.

It’s also possible that the three aircraft will stay in Canada. I note that although the registration was cancelled, it was not deleted. At least not yet.

This is all plausible.

Of course that contrasts to the other Chinese lessor they had issues with in February. Two separate companies seems to imply Flair was/has been struggling with liquidity.

Normally if it is a cash crunch, once one creditor turns into the repo man, they all line up. They drain the piggy bank and the company is forced to seek protection. This can happen quickly or can take a few weeks to unwind. Since this happened on a weekend. Since I doubt Nav Canada or an Airport Authority will want to be blamed for a shutdown over spring break yet again. (Jetsgo)

We need to just watch for a week or so. No one posting here knows what is really going on. Even the very high ups at Flair won’t. Been there and seen it. However the longer this goes without a pile on? Flair version of events will look accurate.

Good luck everyone.

[Airbrake]

Flair has always paid salaries on time.

What about payroll "errors"? What about vacation pay from previous years? What about triple time owed? What about the vacation pay grievance this year? What about retro pay? Don't worry, it's coming in XX days.

Or do those not count? Arrears with lessors, maintenance, airports, employees...I bet Stephen Jones got his full pay this week. Again.

Payroll errors - a number as the issues with NB have been on going. But always corrected. By the way, ask those who were massively over paid for months last year if the company ever ‘recouped’ that!

Vacation pay from previous years? Always paid.

Vacation pay grievance? Is being paid but some expected it in January. Where does it say that in the CBA?

Retro pay - as per the CBA. It was agreed to and will paid in as oer that agreement.

Facts vs innuendo.

So you are saying you have fact of WJ layoffs?
Or is that innuendo?
If you are saying it as a fact and you are outside of WJ, then you have some great insider info.
I’ll wait to see how this all comes to be for the 4 days that remain of this week.

[MAX8 Driver]

Flair has always paid salaries on time.

What about payroll "errors"? What about vacation pay from previous years? What about triple time owed? What about the vacation pay grievance this year? What about retro pay? Don't worry, it's coming in XX days.

Or do those not count? Arrears with lessors, maintenance, airports, employees...I bet Stephen Jones got his full pay this week. Again.

Payroll errors - a number as the issues with NB have been on going. But always corrected. By the way, ask those who were massively over paid for months last year if the company ever ‘recouped’ that!

Vacation pay from previous years? Always paid.

Vacation pay grievance? Is being paid but some expected it in January. Where does it say that in the CBA?

Retro pay - as per the CBA. It was agreed to and will paid in as oer that agreement.

Facts vs innuendo.

Always corrects on time? Payroll doesn't respond to emails. Do we have anyone employed in Payroll?
Vacation pay from previous years? Always paid? Ask the pilot(s) who have NOT been paid for 2+ of vacation if that's true.
Vacation pay is paid at x2 and we are owed the day. Ask any pilot if they received their 4% of gross earnings.
Retro, if the company could afford to pay monies owed to their employees, they would. Instead it was negotiated by push overs.

[Old fella]

Big question is whether the travelling public will have confidence in Flair going forward. Latest Globe article painted a picture of Flair having a pattern of missing lease payments going back to last September and Two leasing companies were in the process of offering eleven Flair aircraft to other airlines however seven of these aircraft were pulled back because Flair paid up, other four were seized.This caused many unsuspecting travelling customers to loose out. Hard to say where this will all go down the road, however one thing is certain, the aviation superhighway( or runway if you prefer) is littered with plenty bits and pieces of failed airlines.

[Panama Jack]

Not sure what this means for them, could be nothing, could be something - but they got in bed with some no bullsheet mf's down in New York. I think their head office might be in Jersey.

I have pondered this one. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they are organized enough to be aware of payment due dates. I also imagine that the creditor won’t seize 4 airplanes on the day after the payment is late without at least a reminder phone call. That being said, at the very least it suggests that Flair has a cash-flow problem. That’s a matter of concern. While they may be able to improve on that as we head into the summer, the sudden loss of what amounts to 22% of their fleet (4 out of 18 airplanes) will at the least require schedule adjustments, a spiral of cancellations and most damagingly - a loss of consumer confidence. People may be more weary to buy a ticket on an airline which has cash flow problems (airline bankruptcies traditionally have been sudden, spectacular events) and arriving at the airport on the day of travel to be told by the staff that either their flight has been cancelled due to a schedule change, or having no staff there to tell them because the airlines ceased operations earlier that morning.

Don’t confuse this post on what I hope will happen. Flair has some good people working for them and I hope they can get past this situation. But having been around for a while, I have seen movies like this before.

[schnitzel2k3]

Not sure what this means for them, could be nothing, could be something - but they got in bed with some no bullsheet mf's down in New York. I think their head office might be in Jersey.

I have pondered this one. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they are organized enough to be aware of payment due dates. I also imagine that the creditor won’t seize 4 airplanes on the day after the payment is late without at least a reminder phone call. That being said, at the very least it suggests that Flair has a cash-flow problem. That’s a matter of concern. While they may be able to improve on that as we head into the summer, the sudden loss of what amounts to 22% of their fleet (4 out of 18 airplanes) will at the least require schedule adjustments, a spiral of cancellations and most damagingly - a loss of consumer confidence. People may be more weary to buy a ticket on an airline which has cash flow problems (airline bankruptcies traditionally have been sudden, spectacular events) and arriving at the airport on the day of travel to be told by the staff that either their flight has been cancelled due to a schedule change, or having no staff there to tell them because the airlines ceased operations earlier that morning.

Don’t confuse this post on what I hope will happen. Flair has some good people working for them and I hope they can get past this situation. But having been around for a while, I have seen movies like this before.

It looks like as more evidence rolls out - it's less Flair and more on the lessor who has other plans for the 4 Max's. It's like the Toronto rental market. Flair had a decent rate, someone's willing to pay more, Flair got the boot.

Hopefully they can secure more aircraft soon.

[cdnavater]

Big question is whether the travelling public will have confidence in Flair going forward. Latest Globe article painted a picture of Flair having a pattern of missing lease payments going back to last September and Two leasing companies were in the process of offering eleven Flair aircraft to other airlines however seven of these aircraft were pulled back because Flair paid up, other four were seized.This caused many unsuspecting travelling customers to loose out. Hard to say where this will all go down the road, however one thing is certain, the aviation superhighway( or runway if you prefer) is littered with plenty bits and pieces of failed airlines.

One thing that is a fact, Flair better be on time for those other seven, precedent set.

“Flair has always paid salaries on time. The CEO was clear that the actions of the lessor were well outside industry standard and lessors don’t act that way. There is more to this than meets the eye. No lessor pulls aircraft without a plan. Airbourne has over 20 aircraft with WJ……….and this week WJ will be announcing significant layoffs. An attempt to deflect the media? Time will tell and Flair will still be around this summer….. and next year….. and the year after.

No other lessors have pulled their aircraft. Fuel companies have not changed their terms. Employees will be paid this week.

The naysayers on here are motivated to disparage Flair as they work for the competition. They’ve been spouting the same for years and yet here Flair is.

Let’s call it what it is - WJ is running scared and can’t compete with Flair on cost and can’t compete with AC on value and revenue. They are stuck in the middle which is a bad place to be. They have pulled out of the East. This week they will begin the cutting (cutting customer service, loyalty, outsourcing safety - as a start). Their CEO has essentially told the pilots to bugger off. There will be more cuts - I’d guess the 787s will be gone by next summer.

Keep trying to convince yourselves that you’re smarter than the money behind flair, that Canada is ‘special’ and can’t sustain a ULCc…………I’d bet on Flair.“

Of course Flairs CEO is going to paint a rosy picture, they have to, it’s in the job description. They certainly won’t tell employees there’s a cash flow problem, duh!

[thepoors]

It is entirely plausible that the leasing company took the opportunity Flair handed them, to reset the lease rate on those fins to todays reality. By the sounds of it the lessor had been shopping those aircraft around since last month. It is possible that this wasn’t a Flair short on cash story. It was maybe a lessor exploiting a slow payee as a way out. This is obviously the way Flair is trying to frame it. Nothing to see here. The lessor is a dick.

How does that make them a dick? They are in it to make money. If Flair had a good covid deal on the leases, all the more reason to make sure the lessor had no outs. They look even dumber for not making those payments on time. Jones calling this "extreme and unusual" also shows that they are in the habit of doing this and getting away with it, till now anyway. I don't see that as being "exploited", the lessor has every right to expect to be paid on time. Flair pushed their luck and got burnt. Hopefully they come out of this alright, but lesson learned.

[JHR]

Flair has definitely not paid it pilots "on time" or it's training providers. There seems to be a history of cash flow issues. Let's hope they can sort it out and survive.

[Fanblade]

It is entirely plausible that the leasing company took the opportunity Flair handed them, to reset the lease rate on those fins to todays reality. By the sounds of it the lessor had been shopping those aircraft around since last month. It is possible that this wasn’t a Flair short on cash story. It was maybe a lessor exploiting a slow payee as a way out. This is obviously the way Flair is trying to frame it. Nothing to see here. The lessor is a dick.

How does that make them a dick? They are in it to make money. If Flair had a good covid deal on the leases, all the more reason to make sure the lessor had no outs. They look even dumber for not making those payments on time. Jones calling this "extreme and unusual" also shows that they are in the habit of doing this and getting away with it, till now anyway. I don't see that as being "exploited", the lessor has every right to expect to be paid on time. Flair pushed their luck and got burnt. Hopefully they come out of this alright, but lesson learned.

I agree.

This is the way Flair is trying to frame it. In bold.

I was simply making a statement about how Flair is attempting to portray the situation.

Based on events and Flair’s blame game explanation, it is plausible that this isn’t a severe liquidity problem as many have assumed. It may have simply been a screw up on Flairs part. Perhaps a history of pushing the envelope caught up to them.

Which ever one it is? We will know within a few weeks

[Fanblade]

.

[braaap Braap]

Flair has always paid salaries on time. The CEO was clear that the actions of the lessor were well outside industry standard and lessors don’t act that way. There is more to this than meets the eye. No lessor pulls aircraft without a plan. Airbourne has over 20 aircraft with WJ……….and this week WJ will be announcing significant layoffs. An attempt to deflect the media? Time will tell and Flair will still be around this summer….. and next year….. and the year after.

No other lessors have pulled their aircraft. Fuel companies have not changed their terms. Employees will be paid this week.

The naysayers on here are motivated to disparage Flair as they work for the competition. They’ve been spouting the same for years and yet here Flair is.

Let’s call it what it is - WJ is running scared and can’t compete with Flair on cost and can’t compete with AC on value and revenue. They are stuck in the middle which is a bad place to be. They have pulled out of the East. This week they will begin the cutting (cutting customer service, loyalty, outsourcing safety - as a start). Their CEO has essentially told the pilots to bugger off. There will be more cuts - I’d guess the 787s will be gone by next summer.

Keep trying to convince yourselves that you’re smarter than the money behind flair, that Canada is ‘special’ and can’t sustain a ULCc…………I’d bet on Flair.

Your bias is showing

Doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong though

For sure. Nobody will know till it happens. But if you're a betting person, who are you going to bet on a) the company who has had planes repossessed (in the latest of a chronicle of sketchy events) or the company that has a record of profitability and while shrinking isn't flashing warning signs like flair. Flair's in his name ffs.

[Invertago]

Let's hope it all works out for the best. Having a hundred extra Flair 737 pilots throwing resumes at WJ does not help the current negotiations situation.

[Bleed Air]

If I was leasing a Ferrari for $100/mo, there is no way I'd be late on a payment EVER!!!!!!
They knew they had a hell of a deal with COVID lease rates, why they would do anything to jeopardize that, even if it is industry standard to look the other way for being a day or so late with payments.
They know what the lease rates are now, and their bottom line was based on those COVID lease rates, now they don't have them anymore, to replace those aircraft they won't be getting the same rates.
Someone should have lost their job over this massive blunder.

[flying4dollars]

Your bias is showing

Doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong though

For sure. Nobody will know till it happens. But if you're a betting person, who are you going to bet on a) the company who has had planes repossessed (in the latest of a chronicle of sketchy events) or the company that has a record of profitability and while shrinking isn't flashing warning signs like flair. Flair's in his name ffs.

Just to be clear, what sketchy events are you referring to? Westjet's biggest competition is Flair. Not AC. WJ has a history of battling with Flair. Yes, WJ has a record of profitability, but I think it took them a number of years to get there. Flair could very well be on its way to doing that. They are kind of following in WJ's shoes which is why they feel so threatened. I am not pointing fingers or claiming to know what's going on, but just because 'Flair' is in his user handle, again, biased or not, doesn't mean he's wrong. You're right though, nobody will know the whole truth and time will tell all. As far as the betting thing, this doesn't have to do with betting on one vs the other. That's not even close to the point of this. Unless I'm misunderstanding your reference of course.