RippleRock wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:08 pm
Yes, I am willing to do a "sight unseen" signing. Show me where.
That's what I thought.
You think we can do better with the "train wreck" ? Seriously??? How long have you been paying attention? You don't have to go back far to se a serious trend of minor and epic failures. Concessionary contracts and MOA's abound.
Explain why ACPA is worth --one more second-- of "fixing". ACPA's inner circle clearly ignored the report and recommendations last time we tried to "fix" stuff.
How are AC pilots planning on stopping the same corrupt representatives from just moving over to ALPA? The union is only as good as its reps. You'll have the same shit you have know just under a alpa banner?
You union isn't the problem it's the people running it.
Malfunction wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:25 pm
How are AC pilots planning on stopping the same corrupt representatives from just moving over to ALPA? The union is only as good as its reps. You'll have the same shit you have know just under a alpa banner?
You union isn't the problem it's the people running it.
This is quite likely true for the elected positions. But it is not the case for the Staff that are employed by ACPA and have not contributed to our success. An example is our LRD department. The optics are of a staff that do little to improve the collective agreement but do as much to maintain their own well being. While this is likely true in other organizations it doesn’t seem to have infected the entire organization in the ways it has at ACPA.
Certain policies are also different within the constitution. While in ALPA it states
However, nothing in this Section shall authorize any Master Executive Council to initiate any action that is inconsistent with this Constitution and By-Laws or with the best interests of the Association or the general membership.
At ACPA it states.
In discharging his or her duties, every MEC Member shall:
1) Act in the best interests of the Association; and
What happened to the reasons that CAPLA became ACPA in the first place? Are those reasons still valid?
What does one union have over another when dealing with the Canadian government (who pushed back to work legislation and removed the right to strike)?
TCAS II wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:07 pm
What happened to the reasons that CAPLA became ACPA in the first place? Are those reasons still valid?
What does one union have over another when dealing with the Canadian government (who pushed back to work legislation and removed the right to strike)?
TCAS II wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:07 pm
What happened to the reasons that CAPLA became ACPA in the first place? Are those reasons still valid?
What does one union have over another when dealing with the Canadian government (who pushed back to work legislation and removed the right to strike)?
Shhhhhh
The Air Canada pilots left CALPA over issues of self determination. The voting regime permitted other groups to team up and force things on the AC pilots. The straw that broke the camels back was, as we all know, the Picher seniority arbitration. This voting regime doesn’t exist at ALPA.
We would be joining ALPA International. However being Canadian means we would also participate on the Canada board. The Canada board would deal with Canadian issues like lobbying.
Lobbying is an issue we can only solve under one tent. We have two problems. One we don’t have a single voice. Two we need someone on the hill ALL the time. That takes dollars. Trying to approach politicians on an ad hoc bass, in our parliamentary system, doesn’t work. This is actually a very good question and if you approach someone on the unity committee you will find this is actually an issue that will likely be part of current negotiations with ALPA.
A number of years ago all the pilot groups in Canada got together and spent several years lobbying Transport Canada to improve the then Nigerian like flight duty time regulations. Obviously their efforts were opposed by industry but despite this, TC eventually agreed to change and improve the regulations pertaining to flight duty times. At the 11th hour, ALPA reversed their position and threw the entire effort under the bus. Is this the same ALPA you claim is going to lobby for us?
sportingrifle wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:20 pm
A number of years ago all the pilot groups in Canada got together and spent several years lobbying Transport Canada to improve the then Nigerian like flight duty time regulations. Obviously their efforts were opposed by industry but despite this, TC eventually agreed to change and improve the regulations pertaining to flight duty times. At the 11th hour, ALPA reversed their position and threw the entire effort under the bus. Is this the same ALPA you claim is going to lobby for us?
Your version of history leaves out our part in the collapse of the safer skies coalition.
It ignores the utter hypocrisy that while our FSAG committee was part of the safer skies coalition at the TC working group, the ACPA negotiating committee was enthusiastically endorsing continued 2 pilot long range flying at night, regular blocked flying to almost 90 hours, continued and unlimited overtime to 118 hours a month, not to mention the appeal to unrestricted PoR to beyond 10 hours at night if called during designated rest.... and that is just off the top of my head.
While FSAG was working at the TC working group other elements within ACPA were working to subvert and undermine FSAG and the safer skies coalition.
It should surprise no one that the outcome was less than ideal. There are a few fingers pointing in a bunch of directions including us.
I would suggest that the post mortem on this failure, if undertaken, would further show that not working within the wider pilot community once again bit us in the azz. A once in a 20 year opportunity blown.
I’m very pleased to report that our union reached another milestone in our work to advance the profession, keep flying safe, and promote the power of unionism when ALPA and the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) reached an agreement in principle (AIP) recently and set the stage for a potential merger of our two unions.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:57 am
March 13, 2023
ALPA Pilots,
I’m very pleased to report that our union reached another milestone in our work to advance the profession, keep flying safe, and promote the power of unionism when ALPA and the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) reached an agreement in principle (AIP) recently and set the stage for a potential merger of our two unions.
Is that for real? I didn't see an e-mail or anything.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:57 am
March 13, 2023
ALPA Pilots,
I’m very pleased to report that our union reached another milestone in our work to advance the profession, keep flying safe, and promote the power of unionism when ALPA and the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) reached an agreement in principle (AIP) recently and set the stage for a potential merger of our two unions.
Is that for real? I didn't see an e-mail or anything.
Here is the whole thing, it was an email to all ALPA Pilots from the new President
A Message from Capt. Jason Ambrosi
March 13, 2023
ALPA Pilots,
I’m very pleased to report that our union reached another milestone in our work to advance the profession, keep flying safe, and promote the power of unionism when ALPA and the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) reached an agreement in principle (AIP) recently and set the stage for a potential merger of our two unions.
As always, you, the line pilot, drive our union’s agenda. Your views on the proposed merger will be represented by ALPA’s Canada Board, Executive Council, and Executive Board members as each of these bodies, as well as the ACPA pilots, vote on the issue in the coming weeks. If the proposal is ratified, our combined union will have greater strength in negotiating collective agreements and advancing airline pilots’ interests, such as protecting labour rights and defending against efforts to remove pilots from the flight deck altogether.
Those who put profit ahead of safety are working overtime to undermine the foundational reason flying is the safest mode of transportation in the world: having at least two pilots at all times on every airliner flight deck. To combat this threat, we recently convened pilot union leaders from around the globe to develop a campaign to make sure the flying and shipping public continue to benefit from the current high standard of aviation safety. We launched this collective effort with an Aviation Week opinion piece titled “Removing Airline Pilots From the Flight Deck Is a Gamble with Safety,” which I jointly authored with the presidents of the European Cockpit Association and the International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations. Our unified message is that the world’s airline pilots will not allow special interests to roll back or weaken our industry’s safety record.
At the same time, our unity allows ALPA pilot groups to achieve historic gains through new agreements, such as those at Delta, Hawaiian, JetBlue, and Spirit. The full weight of our union’s resources is now focused on pilot groups that continue to fight management foot-dragging in negotiations, such as FedEx Express, WestJet, and ATI.
This week, I’ve been invited to represent you at the Federal Aviation Administration’s Safety Summit and before the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. I’ll reinforce the need to take every possible action to protect our current gold standard of safety in air transportation, including maintaining first officer qualification, experience, and training requirements. If you haven’t already, I urge you to participate in ALPA’s first Call to Action of 2023 to remind lawmakers that ALPA pilots speak with a unified voice.
Call to Action
As every airline pilot understands, strong collective agreements and contracts along with a safe workplace and industry are not only essential to protecting our passengers and cargo shippers—they are critical to inspiring the next generation of pilots to join our profession. For all these reasons and more, ALPA is bringing the world’s pilots together.
200Above wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:08 am
It's from Delta's MEC I believe.
Why would it be from Delta MEC and nothing from ALPA or ACPA? Am I missing something ?(Disclaimer: just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet)
What are you talking about? It was announced yesterday or the day before that there's an AIP. Maybe check that you're set up to receive emails.
Roadshows start next week.
I did get it eventually, but it was after I wrote what I wrote above. I checked my inbox and spam. There was nothing (at the time of my original post). Again, I did get it eventually.
I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!
elite wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:11 am
I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!
What was left of CALPA entered initially into a ‘services’ agreement with ALPA and quickly realized that a merger represented a better outcome.
It is 100% certain that the AC pilots would not entertain a return to CALPA as it was previously constituted. At ALPA, the AC pilots will have effective equal status at the Executive representational level as UA/DL/FedEx and others. And the ALPA Canada representational structure has also been modified to the benefit of the AC pilot group.
It would be great to dial back time and avoid the exodus of the AC pilots from CALPA. But that is not possible. Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.
With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.
elite wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:11 am
I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!
What was left of CALPA entered initially into a ‘services’ agreement with ALPA and quickly realized that a merger represented a better outcome.
It is 100% certain that the AC pilots would not entertain a return to CALPA as it was previously constituted. At ALPA, the AC pilots will have effective equal status at the Executive representational level as UA/DL/FedEx and others. And the ALPA Canada representational structure has also been modified to the benefit of the AC pilot group.
It would be great to dial back time and avoid the exodus of the AC pilots from CALPA. But that is not possible. Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.
With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.
What change should one expect in term of career progression or lobbying if AC joins ALPA?
Would this help raising the wawcons?
rudder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:25 am
Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.
With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.
elite wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:11 am
I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!
What was left of CALPA entered initially into a ‘services’ agreement with ALPA and quickly realized that a merger represented a better outcome.
It is 100% certain that the AC pilots would not entertain a return to CALPA as it was previously constituted. At ALPA, the AC pilots will have effective equal status at the Executive representational level as UA/DL/FedEx and others. And the ALPA Canada representational structure has also been modified to the benefit of the AC pilot group.
It would be great to dial back time and avoid the exodus of the AC pilots from CALPA. But that is not possible. Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.
With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.
Thanks for your post, but I'm still staring at that elephant in the room which you ignored! If ALPA so easily walked away from over 600 C3 pilots, what's stopping them from doing it again? What kind of union is it that abandons its members when dues stop coming in?
And I guess ALPA merger policy being date of hire, I'll be curious to know what happens if and when Jazz and AC agree to a merger?
elite wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 8:11 am
I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!
What was left of CALPA entered initially into a ‘services’ agreement with ALPA and quickly realized that a merger represented a better outcome.
It is 100% certain that the AC pilots would not entertain a return to CALPA as it was previously constituted. At ALPA, the AC pilots will have effective equal status at the Executive representational level as UA/DL/FedEx and others. And the ALPA Canada representational structure has also been modified to the benefit of the AC pilot group.
It would be great to dial back time and avoid the exodus of the AC pilots from CALPA. But that is not possible. Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.
With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.
Thanks for your post, but I'm still staring at that elephant in the room which you ignored! If ALPA so easily walked away from over 600 C3 pilots, what's stopping them from doing it again? What kind of union is it that abandons its members when dues stop coming in?
And I guess ALPA merger policy being date of hire, I'll be curious to know what happens if and when Jazz and AC agree to a merger?
100% false.
“The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.”
