Is this the first AIP to not be in the benefit of the company?

[McKinley]

Almost every airline represented by ALPA has been on an upwards trajectory in pay and benefits. It may not be as much as most of us would like, but upwards nevertheless. I believe Jazz is the only exception to that. At my previous job, we saw substantial increases in things like pay, training credits and other benefits. This happened after we switched to ALPA after years of being with Unifor. Granted, UNIFOR is not a great benchmark, but the point stands.

Meanwhile, ACPA represented pilots have seen nothing but a steady erosion of their contract. They even managed to agree to 10% less to fly a highly lucrative cargo operation. I can still picture management sitting in some boardroom pissing themselves laughing at the fact that pilots bought the whole bullshit of the operation not being viable without a 10% cut. This was literally days after the company was bragging to investors that the improvised cargo operation was making loads of money and stemming the loss. There is no way the company doesn't see their relationship with ACPA as clubbing baby seals.

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alpa is about as incompetent as it gets. Canadian North, Jazz, Westjet, Bearskin, Calm Air etc have received what in WAWCON increases ?

Last time I checked, Jazz signed onto a 17 year agreement with minimal gains. From what I hear, alpa encouraged pilots to take the deal.

The issues in this country / industry are extremely complex : high taxes, no strike clauses, poor regulation ( TCCA), pilots with poor self worth, industry culture and incompetent unions.

Look at what happening in the states .. alpa US aid blocking Canadian pilots from going south.. Meanwhile, US carriers are securing industry leading contracts.

Alpa will only exacerbate industry issues in Canada… it has nothing to do with ACPA.

Acpa has ZERO to do with the last collective agreement round at Jazz .. it’s solely an alpa issue.

I’d fully expect alpa to leverage both pilot groups into accepting pro- management agreements as has been done with each alpa carrier to date.

[McKinley]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

Exactly this . Alpa US is actively blocking Canadian pilots from going south.

American pilots are securing industry leading pay while Canadian pilots are getting hosed. If I was the president of the union, I’d be embarrassed.

I’d argue ACPA has more potential to turn things around in the industry… ACPA has the issue of all these alpa carriers signing industry leading agreements ( not in a good way) that are piss poor and fuel the race to the bottom.

Under alpa, I’d anticipate things to deteriorate fast.

[schnitzel2k3]

Almost every airline represented by ALPA has been on an upwards trajectory in pay and benefits. It may not be as much as most of us would like, but upwards nevertheless. I believe Jazz is the only exception to that. At my previous job, we saw substantial increases in things like pay, training credits and other benefits. This happened after we switched to ALPA after years of being with Unifor. Granted, UNIFOR is not a great benchmark, but the point stands.

Meanwhile, ACPA represented pilots have seen nothing but a steady erosion of their contract. They even managed to agree to 10% less to fly a highly lucrative cargo operation. I can still picture management sitting in some boardroom pissing themselves laughing at the fact that pilots bought the whole bullshit of the operation not being viable without a 10% cut. This was literally days after the company was bragging to investors that the improvised cargo operation was making loads of money and stemming the loss. There is no way the company doesn't see their relationship with ACPA as clubbing baby seals.

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alpa is about as incompetent as it gets. Canadian North, Jazz, Westjet, Bearskin, Calm Air etc have received what in WAWCON increases ?

Last time I checked, Jazz signed onto a 17 year agreement with minimal gains. From what I hear, alpa encouraged pilots to take the deal.

The issues in this country / industry are extremely complex : high taxes, no strike clauses, poor regulation ( TCCA), pilots with poor self worth, industry culture and incompetent unions.

Look at what happening in the states .. alpa US aid blocking Canadian pilots from going south.. Meanwhile, US carriers are securing industry leading contracts.

Alpa will only exacerbate industry issues in Canada… it has nothing to do with ACPA.

Look at the conditions they have to compete against for the first four years at Canada's only flag carrier. It doesn't matter if 25 years down the line you're making 250+, it really doesn't.

If you set the bar at 56k yr 1 for pilots with extremely qualified resumes - then....what is the justification for anyone else to compete on smaller equipment if they're just a training ground for someone willing to go to AC at 56k.

ACPA had their chance to get shit in order, they dropped the ball year after year after year.

Might be time to actually make a change. What's the definition of insanity again...?

Going to be some toxic pairings between pilots for ALPA and pilots for ACPA.

[rudder]

Yeah now we are going to score a huge win like those Jazz pilots and the Westjet guys like when they joined ALPA!

Exactly this . Alpa US is actively blocking Canadian pilots from going south.

American pilots are securing industry leading pay while Canadian pilots are getting hosed. If I was the president of the union, I’d be embarrassed.

I’d argue ACPA has more potential to turn things around in the industry… ACPA has the issue of all these alpa carriers signing industry leading agreements ( not in a good way) that are piss poor and fuel the race to the bottom.

Under alpa, I’d anticipate things to deteriorate fast.

And ALPA is supposed to support foreign pilots coming to the US….. ? ALPA opposes foreign pilots in Canada as well. Makes sense.

How many AC pilots will be eligible to vote? 4600? From the outside looking in I predict a 90% participation result with a 67% result in favour of ALPA. If that is the case, 2/3rd support is a solid statement on who should be representing the AC pilots.

If the result is in favour of ACPA, then the membership has spoken. The key is to move on as ONE PILOT GROUP with the result. The fractured membership is what allows substandard agreements to find a place to breath.

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Almost every airline represented by ALPA has been on an upwards trajectory in pay and benefits. It may not be as much as most of us would like, but upwards nevertheless. I believe Jazz is the only exception to that. At my previous job, we saw substantial increases in things like pay, training credits and other benefits. This happened after we switched to ALPA after years of being with Unifor. Granted, UNIFOR is not a great benchmark, but the point stands.

Meanwhile, ACPA represented pilots have seen nothing but a steady erosion of their contract. They even managed to agree to 10% less to fly a highly lucrative cargo operation. I can still picture management sitting in some boardroom pissing themselves laughing at the fact that pilots bought the whole bullshit of the operation not being viable without a 10% cut. This was literally days after the company was bragging to investors that the improvised cargo operation was making loads of money and stemming the loss. There is no way the company doesn't see their relationship with ACPA as clubbing baby seals.

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alpa is about as incompetent as it gets. Canadian North, Jazz, Westjet, Bearskin, Calm Air etc have received what in WAWCON increases ?

Last time I checked, Jazz signed onto a 17 year agreement with minimal gains. From what I hear, alpa encouraged pilots to take the deal.

The issues in this country / industry are extremely complex : high taxes, no strike clauses, poor regulation ( TCCA), pilots with poor self worth, industry culture and incompetent unions.

Look at what happening in the states .. alpa US aid blocking Canadian pilots from going south.. Meanwhile, US carriers are securing industry leading contracts.

Alpa will only exacerbate industry issues in Canada… it has nothing to do with ACPA.

Acpa has ZERO to do with the last collective agreement round at Jazz .. it’s solely an alpa issue.

I’d fully expect alpa to leverage both pilot groups into accepting pro- management agreements as has been done with each alpa carrier to date.

My brain actually hurts after reading this. Like I actually feel dumber and we as a collective now have lost brain cells after reading this diatribe of falsities

ALPA is 100% working on "portability" for Canuckistan pilots and that is a strong reason to merge with the largest pilot union in the world. To have a stronger voice in DC to lobby for these sort of things.

There isn't a Canadian legacy on that list. It's time for Canada's largest pilot group to start pulling their weight and show some leadership on the international level instead of being the Pirates of the Atlantic

[a2btrail]

Almost every airline represented by ALPA has been on an upwards trajectory in pay and benefits. It may not be as much as most of us would like, but upwards nevertheless. I believe Jazz is the only exception to that. At my previous job, we saw substantial increases in things like pay, training credits and other benefits. This happened after we switched to ALPA after years of being with Unifor. Granted, UNIFOR is not a great benchmark, but the point stands.

Meanwhile, ACPA represented pilots have seen nothing but a steady erosion of their contract. They even managed to agree to 10% less to fly a highly lucrative cargo operation. I can still picture management sitting in some boardroom pissing themselves laughing at the fact that pilots bought the whole bullshit of the operation not being viable without a 10% cut. This was literally days after the company was bragging to investors that the improvised cargo operation was making loads of money and stemming the loss. There is no way the company doesn't see their relationship with ACPA as clubbing baby seals.

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alpa is about as incompetent as it gets. Canadian North, Jazz, Westjet, Bearskin, Calm Air etc have received what in WAWCON increases ?

Last time I checked, Jazz signed onto a 17 year agreement with minimal gains. From what I hear, alpa encouraged pilots to take the deal.

The issues in this country / industry are extremely complex : high taxes, no strike clauses, poor regulation ( TCCA), pilots with poor self worth, industry culture and incompetent unions.

Look at what happening in the states .. alpa US aid blocking Canadian pilots from going south.. Meanwhile, US carriers are securing industry leading contracts.

Alpa will only exacerbate industry issues in Canada… it has nothing to do with ACPA.

Acpa has ZERO to do with the last collective agreement round at Jazz .. it’s solely an alpa issue.

I’d fully expect alpa to leverage both pilot groups into accepting pro- management agreements as has been done with each alpa carrier to date.

My brain actually hurts after reading this. Like I actually feel dumber and we as a collective now have lost brain cells after reading this diatribe of falsities

ALPA is 100% working on "portability" for Canuckistan pilots and that is a strong reason to merge with the largest pilot union in the world. To have a stronger voice in DC to lobby for these sort of things.

There isn't a Canadian legacy on that list. It's time for Canada's largest pilot group to start pulling their weight and show some leadership on the international level instead of being the Pirates of the Atlantic

Aha I agree! Some people move based on the past and off their emotions. ACPA is dead - Mark my works. A New generation of pilots are coming into the company at a rapid rate. I love to see it.

"It's time for Canada's largest pilot group to start pulling their weight and show some leadership on the international level instead of being the Pirates of the Atlantic". This statement is GOLD LOL.

I WILL BE VOTING YES TO THIS MERGER.

[McKinley]

Almost every airline represented by ALPA has been on an upwards trajectory in pay and benefits. It may not be as much as most of us would like, but upwards nevertheless. I believe Jazz is the only exception to that. At my previous job, we saw substantial increases in things like pay, training credits and other benefits. This happened after we switched to ALPA after years of being with Unifor. Granted, UNIFOR is not a great benchmark, but the point stands.

Meanwhile, ACPA represented pilots have seen nothing but a steady erosion of their contract. They even managed to agree to 10% less to fly a highly lucrative cargo operation. I can still picture management sitting in some boardroom pissing themselves laughing at the fact that pilots bought the whole bullshit of the operation not being viable without a 10% cut. This was literally days after the company was bragging to investors that the improvised cargo operation was making loads of money and stemming the loss. There is no way the company doesn't see their relationship with ACPA as clubbing baby seals.

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alpa is about as incompetent as it gets. Canadian North, Jazz, Westjet, Bearskin, Calm Air etc have received what in WAWCON increases ?

Last time I checked, Jazz signed onto a 17 year agreement with minimal gains. From what I hear, alpa encouraged pilots to take the deal.

The issues in this country / industry are extremely complex : high taxes, no strike clauses, poor regulation ( TCCA), pilots with poor self worth, industry culture and incompetent unions.

Look at what happening in the states .. alpa US aid blocking Canadian pilots from going south.. Meanwhile, US carriers are securing industry leading contracts.

Alpa will only exacerbate industry issues in Canada… it has nothing to do with ACPA.

Acpa has ZERO to do with the last collective agreement round at Jazz .. it’s solely an alpa issue.

I’d fully expect alpa to leverage both pilot groups into accepting pro- management agreements as has been done with each alpa carrier to date.

My brain actually hurts after reading this. Like I actually feel dumber and we as a collective now have lost brain cells after reading this diatribe of falsities

ALPA is 100% working on "portability" for Canuckistan pilots and that is a strong reason to merge with the largest pilot union in the world. To have a stronger voice in DC to lobby for these sort of things.

There isn't a Canadian legacy on that list. It's time for Canada's largest pilot group to start pulling their weight and show some leadership on the international level instead of being the Pirates of the Atlantic

No, but there’s some of the biggest pilot groups in Canada..not havIng a legacy carrier is no excuse for piss poor performance.

How is alpa working for profitability of Canukistan pilots? How many of these groups with alpa representation have had improvements in WAWCON? Can you answer that? Which company has a B scale again?

If these smaller carriers improved their agreements ACPA would follow suit.

Alpa ( Canada) is good at working for the companies and holding companies to their respective collective agreements. While holding the company to the collective agreement is important, I suggest pilots set the bar higher.

South of the border, alpa seems to have teeth.. not here.

Alpa wants more members because increased membership = increased dues to the union.

[PostmasterGeneral]

McKinley? Or is it McKay?

[CPU2000]

McKinley? Or is it McKay?

Or some other ACPA disciple that is too thick to finally see that the worst pilot union in North America is done

ALPA and their resources, connections, 350 staff, 92 years of experience and proven strategies are coming to town

[aeronauticaldisaster]

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alpa is about as incompetent as it gets. Canadian North, Jazz, Westjet, Bearskin, Calm Air etc have received what in WAWCON increases ?

Last time I checked, Jazz signed onto a 17 year agreement with minimal gains. From what I hear, alpa encouraged pilots to take the deal.

The issues in this country / industry are extremely complex : high taxes, no strike clauses, poor regulation ( TCCA), pilots with poor self worth, industry culture and incompetent unions.

Look at what happening in the states .. alpa US aid blocking Canadian pilots from going south.. Meanwhile, US carriers are securing industry leading contracts.

Alpa will only exacerbate industry issues in Canada… it has nothing to do with ACPA.

Acpa has ZERO to do with the last collective agreement round at Jazz .. it’s solely an alpa issue.

I’d fully expect alpa to leverage both pilot groups into accepting pro- management agreements as has been done with each alpa carrier to date.

My brain actually hurts after reading this. Like I actually feel dumber and we as a collective now have lost brain cells after reading this diatribe of falsities

ALPA is 100% working on "portability" for Canuckistan pilots and that is a strong reason to merge with the largest pilot union in the world. To have a stronger voice in DC to lobby for these sort of things.

There isn't a Canadian legacy on that list. It's time for Canada's largest pilot group to start pulling their weight and show some leadership on the international level instead of being the Pirates of the Atlantic

No, but there’s some of the biggest pilot groups in Canada..not havIng a legacy carrier is no excuse for piss poor performance.

How is alpa working for profitability of Canukistan pilots? How many of these groups with alpa representation have had improvements in WAWCON? Can you answer that? Which company has a B scale again?

If these smaller carriers improved their agreements ACPA would follow suit.

Alpa ( Canada) is good at working for the companies and holding companies to their respective collective agreements. While holding the company to the collective agreement is important, I suggest pilots set the bar higher.

South of the border, alpa seems to have teeth.. not here.

Alpa wants more members because increased membership = increased dues to the union.

You have to be one of those delusional recently tossed reps that thought the MOA was a good idea

The fact you think the ALPA deal isn't a done deal pretty much speaks for itself of your situational awareness

ACPA is dead. Put a fork in it

Move on McWhatever you are

[GeoffPilot]

It's hard to imagine that anyone would support the religion known as acpa after such epic blunders for such a long period of time

[Aimhii]

ALPA hasn't been able to make any headway in Canada because of ACPA. ACPA is the old man on a 1 lane road driving 30kph in a 100 stretch blocking traffic and shaking their fist at everyone honking behind them.

Be interesting to see the results a year or 2 from now. AC management sadly has timing on their side for negotiations thanks to that beautiful 10 year deal putting you square in the middle of a forced recession with guys like Tiff Macklem spreading gospel about holding off on salary increases.

I just hope y'all don't vote YES on the first bar napkin to cross the table. You got miles to go. You win big and pickup the pace, we all win.

Again, unhelpful hyperbole.

ACPA isn’t a fist waving old man and the fact remains that ACPA pilots are the best compensated pilots in Canada despite having no domestic peers even close to matching AC pilots on pay and pension. Maybe it isn’t ACPA holding everyone back as much as it is the other carriers holding us down.

I would like to see a cogent roadmap that explains what exactly we will be getting for our money from Herndon and then vote accordingly. No more laughable comparisons to old men and Botswana girl guides, sometimes it seems like you sycophants don’t even want to be taken seriously. I want Hard facts about what ALPA will bring to the table that we currently lack and how they plan to get us the large contractual gains we are being advertised.

The rest is just ‘feels’.

Ok, so lets leave the Girl Guides out of it and bring in the CEOs and Executive.......

For years we were told we cant compare ourselves to the Southern Compadres as its a different world there. Didn't seem to Stop Milton, Ravenescu and or Rousseau from comparing their Pay, Bonuses and Golden INDEXED Pensions!! - Now did it?

So I personally don't expect to get a Dump of Gold, and Lottery winning by joining Alpa....But here is what I do expect:

1- Fair Industry Wage (North American / Global comparisons will show we are due)!

2 - Better working Conditions - 2:55hrs for a Vacation day is an Insult and each reopener when asked, ACPA's Einsteins say next contract, next contract.

3 - Reserve is Ridiculous.No Life, Huge Stress on Family Life.

4 - DPG 4:25...Joke! Compare to any other top tier Major (5:10, 5:15).

5 - SCOPE - Never touch this one Again, unless to you want to kill the careers remaining.

6 - Negotiating committees - Now thats where perhaps I can bring in the Girl Guides?

[a220hereicome]

“ALPA is 100% working on "portability" for Canuckistan pilots ”

No they’re not.

All of their position papers and lobbying to the US congress has been to keep foreigners out.

[McKinley]

“ALPA is 100% working on "portability" for Canuckistan pilots ”

No they’re not.

All of their position papers and lobbying to the US congress has been to keep foreigners out.

Yup.

Again, people can disagree with me that fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I’ll also explain further… why not critically think about this? Is ACPA great? No.

Also alpa is NOT working towards portability of pilots to the US. They’re gatekeeping .. and at the same time not doing anything to improve conditions here.

How is WAWCON at westjet ? What has alpa done there ? (Westjet is the second biggest Canadian carrier.. they might not be a flag carrier.. but they are a key player) why can’t Westjet make improvements independent of AC?

However, Let me ask people this :

How did the new flight time and duty regs go?

What company has had a significant improvement in WAWCON since alpa got involved ?

How did vaccine mandates go?

How many companies had major gains in WAWCON that have been realized since the “hiring boom” both pre-pandemic and post- pandemic ?

How much support was realized for pilots furloughed by the pandemic?

What company has a B scale and what union represents that company?

What kind of gains have been seen south of the border vs north of the border ?

Anyone seen the compensation package for the president of alpa?

Again, alpa does a decent job of holding companies to the collective agreement(s).

How is alpa doing with respect to addressing issues like TC licensing delays and the so called “ pilot shortage”? Is alpa doing a good job of educating the public on why air transport is a total mess? ( and dispelling falsehoods)

As far as increasing working conditions in Canada for pilots I don’t think that change will come from Alpa. I think it will come from us.. leaving the industry and ceasing the college puppy mills. ( people not wanting to pursue this career)


Unfortunately, I think it will also take a colgan 3407 to improve things here as well. (Although it is very sad to say)

[noreasterYHZ]

ALPA is 100% behind portability and pattern bargaining

They fully know the dumpsterfire ACPA has created with a 10 yrs deal while still taking concessions

They are tired of seeing what has become of Canukistan and why they are so keen on getting the one legacy carrier onboard.

Time for change

[a220hereicome]

ALPA is 100% behind portability

They are not. You should read their press material on this. To summarize, “One foreigner flying our airplanes in the US is too many”

There may be a lot of valid reasons to merge with ALPA, but an open border policy for Canadian pilots isn’t one of them.

Maybe a good question to ask a US ALPA rep at the roadshow.

[noreasterYHZ]

ALPA is 100% behind portability

They are not. You should read their press material on this. To summarize, “One foreigner flying our airplanes in the US is too many”

There may be a lot of valid reasons to merge with ALPA, but an open border policy for Canadian pilots isn’t one of them.

Maybe a good question to ask a US ALPA rep at the roadshow.

I know for a FACT they want portability. I heard it from the horse's mouth

ALPA also says there is "no pilot shortage"

What they say in public and actually do are 2 different things

It's called strategy. Something Canuckistan needs to figure out

[a220hereicome]

I know for a FACT they want portability. I heard it from the horse's mouth


What they say in public and actually do are 2 different things

I think they’re selling you snake oil, and you’re buying it.

Like I said, a great question to ask a ALPA Washington rep at a roadshow:

“ALPA has come out strongly against easing immigration restrictions on foreign pilots flying in the US. Will Air Canada pilots joining ALPA change this ALPA policy in dealing with the US government?”

I think the answer is no. They don’t want foreign pilots, like us, flying their airplanes and taking away their kids’ jobs. The same way ALPA came out against foreign pilots flying for Sunwing in Canada.

[Freshredmeat]

You're not picking up what I'm laying down.

If you want to try and go work in the US, best of luck to you. I'm saying that most who shell out the $5000, $10,000 or $20,000 US for this process will never see that money again. The lawyers will gladly take your money, but their success rate so far is essentially zero. Ask them that very pointed question! And there has been no legislation passed in the US to change that success rate. Even the letter from that Hong Kong firm posted elsewhere on this forum speaks only of rumours. And you're going to hand over 5 large to a HK law firm based on that?

What is this guy's deal?

That law firm now has over 50 approvals. I personally know of WJ & AC pilots with approvals and are waiting for their green cards

Why do you spend so much time deliberately trying to de leverage this pilot group?

Please do not go anywhere near a union. Please

[CaptDukeNukem]

You're not picking up what I'm laying down.

If you want to try and go work in the US, best of luck to you. I'm saying that most who shell out the $5000, $10,000 or $20,000 US for this process will never see that money again. The lawyers will gladly take your money, but their success rate so far is essentially zero. Ask them that very pointed question! And there has been no legislation passed in the US to change that success rate. Even the letter from that Hong Kong firm posted elsewhere on this forum speaks only of rumours. And you're going to hand over 5 large to a HK law firm based on that?

What is this guy's deal?

That law firm now has over 50 approvals. I personally know of WJ & AC pilots with approvals and are waiting for their green cards

Why do you spend so much time deliberately trying to de leverage this pilot group?

Please do not go anywhere near a union. Please

Agreed, I personally know of 2 pilots who got approved. The law firm does a free consult and will tell you if you are a good candidate prior to forking over a stack of cash.

You need to meet the requirements of the EB-2. That’s it, end of story.

[Bede]

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alpa is about as incompetent as it gets. Canadian North, Jazz, Westjet, Bearskin, Calm Air etc have received what in WAWCON increases ?

WJ saw a 13.6% increase in total compensation in CA1 with ALPA. WJ ALPA also didn't agree to a 10% wage cut for cargo ops during a cargo boom.

[Rooster69]

WJ has a cargo division?

[skyhighh]

WJ has a cargo division?

Yes. They just converted a few 37s

[eurotrash]

WJ has a cargo division?

Yes. They just converted a few 37s

Did they need to "capture" that flying at a pay discount?

[NotDirty!]

WJ has a cargo division?

Yes. They just converted a few 37s

Did they need to "capture" that flying at a pay discount?

Yes! If they didn’t capture it, someone else would swoop in and take it from them!!