WestJet purchase approval rational.

[Airbrake]

https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-cana ... tions.html

How close was SunWing to shutting the doors if WestJet didn’t purchase it?
This comment in the governments rational makes it sound like it was a very real possibility.

“In the absence of this acquisition, Canada’s air transport sector could have faced greater instability, including job losses, a significant reduction of affordable vacation offerings, negative impacts on passengers, and the Government not being repaid sizable loans.”

[rudder]

https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-cana ... tions.html

How close was SunWing to shutting the doors if WestJet didn’t purchase it?
This comment in the governments rational makes it sound like it was a very real possibility.

“In the absence of this acquisition, Canada’s air transport sector could have faced greater instability, including job losses, a significant reduction of affordable vacation offerings, negative impacts on passengers, and the Government not being repaid sizable loans.”

No different than AC/CDN.

[boeingboy]

https://www.canada.ca/en/transport-cana ... tions.html

How close was SunWing to shutting the doors if WestJet didn’t purchase it?
This comment in the governments rational makes it sound like it was a very real possibility.

“In the absence of this acquisition, Canada’s air transport sector could have faced greater instability, including job losses, a significant reduction of affordable vacation offerings, negative impacts on passengers, and the Government not being repaid sizable loans.”

We were not. Had the deal not gone through we would simply carry on.

There is no danger of Sunwing going under.

[cdnavater]

Well, maybe anyone who opposed the purchase should let the decision makers know, apparently that information was used to decide and they erred, should be revisited!

[safetyfirst123]

According to TUI's Financial Statements for the year ended September 2022, the Sunwing division was profitable. In fairness, this followed by substantial losses in 2021, and I'm sure all options were being considered at that point.

[cdnavater]

According to TUI's Financial Statements for the year ended September 2022, the Sunwing division was profitable. In fairness, this followed by substantial losses in 2021, and I'm sure all options were being considered at that point.

How profitable?
A dollar, 1 million, some pretty big loans to pay back which I’m guessing transfer with the purchase

[boeingboy]

According to TUI's Financial Statements for the year ended September 2022, the Sunwing division was profitable. In fairness, this followed by substantial losses in 2021, and I'm sure all options were being considered at that point.

How profitable?
A dollar, 1 million, some pretty big loans to pay back which I’m guessing transfer with the purchase

You clearly dont know how Sunwing works.

We were profitable...and were very profitable every year (prior to COVID) During the roughly 2 years of COVID we only lost $200 million...Thats far less than anyone else. Making 100 million/year it would not take long to pay back loans, and with 2 billion in assets - I'd say we were pretty solid.

Problem is - when everyone here says "Sunwing" they just think about the airline - it's not. The airline solely exists to fly passengers to our resorts. That's why you could never buy a ticket on Sunwing to say - Hawaii....or Las vegas. As a stand alone unit - I would doubt the airline itself every made money, but it's an essential part of the group as a whole. As a group Sunwing is very profitable.

[cdnavater]

According to TUI's Financial Statements for the year ended September 2022, the Sunwing division was profitable. In fairness, this followed by substantial losses in 2021, and I'm sure all options were being considered at that point.

How profitable?
A dollar, 1 million, some pretty big loans to pay back which I’m guessing transfer with the purchase

You clearly dont know how Sunwing works.

We were profitable...and were very profitable every year (prior to COVID) During the roughly 2 years of COVID we only lost $200 million...Thats far less than anyone else. Making 100 million/year it would not take long to pay back loans, and with 2 billion in assets - I'd say we were pretty solid.

Problem is - when everyone here says "Sunwing" they just think about the airline - it's not. The airline solely exists to fly passengers to our resorts. That's why you could never buy a ticket on Sunwing to say - Hawaii....or Las vegas. As a stand alone unit - I would doubt the airline itself every made money, but it's an essential part of the group as a whole. As a group Sunwing is very profitable.

Ok, why would the decision makers use the very real possibility of loan repayments as a deciding factor?
It wouldn’t be the first time a separate company was folded up to get out of debt.
Who was on the hook for the loan, Sunwing vacation or Sunwing airlines?

[boeingboy]

How profitable?
A dollar, 1 million, some pretty big loans to pay back which I’m guessing transfer with the purchase

You clearly dont know how Sunwing works.

We were profitable...and were very profitable every year (prior to COVID) During the roughly 2 years of COVID we only lost $200 million...Thats far less than anyone else. Making 100 million/year it would not take long to pay back loans, and with 2 billion in assets - I'd say we were pretty solid.

Problem is - when everyone here says "Sunwing" they just think about the airline - it's not. The airline solely exists to fly passengers to our resorts. That's why you could never buy a ticket on Sunwing to say - Hawaii....or Las vegas. As a stand alone unit - I would doubt the airline itself every made money, but it's an essential part of the group as a whole. As a group Sunwing is very profitable.

Ok, why would the decision makers use the very real possibility of loan repayments as a deciding factor?
It wouldn’t be the first time a separate company was folded up to get out of debt.
Who was on the hook for the loan, Sunwing vacation or Sunwing airlines?

....and you believe everything the government says?? They said all that because the public is worried about the prices going up so they had to spin it somehow. I laughed at all their "conditions" they placed on the sale as all that was known long before it got to government review.... already having been planned by Sunwing and Westjet.

[cdnavater]

You clearly dont know how Sunwing works.

We were profitable...and were very profitable every year (prior to COVID) During the roughly 2 years of COVID we only lost $200 million...Thats far less than anyone else. Making 100 million/year it would not take long to pay back loans, and with 2 billion in assets - I'd say we were pretty solid.

Problem is - when everyone here says "Sunwing" they just think about the airline - it's not. The airline solely exists to fly passengers to our resorts. That's why you could never buy a ticket on Sunwing to say - Hawaii....or Las vegas. As a stand alone unit - I would doubt the airline itself every made money, but it's an essential part of the group as a whole. As a group Sunwing is very profitable.

Ok, why would the decision makers use the very real possibility of loan repayments as a deciding factor?
It wouldn’t be the first time a separate company was folded up to get out of debt.
Who was on the hook for the loan, Sunwing vacation or Sunwing airlines?

....and you believe everything the government says?? They said all that because the public is worried about the prices going up so they had to spin it somehow. I laughed at all their "conditions" they placed on the sale as all that was known long before it got to government review.... already having been planned by Sunwing and Westjet.

So, you’re saying government corruption, I wonder if the companies opposed to this are aware of the lies.

[averageatbest]

So, you’re saying government corruption, I wonder if the companies opposed to this are aware of the lies.

I wonder if the people perpetrating the lies and telling their employees to "ignore the headlines" are aware that they are liars...

[cloak]

With the approval done, things will slowly fall into place. Naturally, this can happen a number of ways based on resources, market conditions and resistance vs. cooperation received from employee groups, and the company will most likely have multiple plans they can put in place.

The few conditions put forth can easily be met, for instance adding five new cities lends itself well to the existing expansion plans anyway. As well, likely WestJet vacations will be closed and its staff absorbed into Sunwing Vacations which will satisfy the 20% new hires condition. The company will likely want to close Sunwing airlines and fold it into Swoop. This will be dependent on the negotiations with ALPA regarding Swoop and how much it can grow, as the opposite may also be possible. The company will likely operate Sunwing separately until negotiations are complete.

As for Sunwing pilots, they likely are in no hurry to join ALPA as it will affect them enormously. With discussions of rebid and bump and flush, Sunwing pilots will naturally want to ensure none of those things are going to happen and their tenure is recognized. If all parties "play well" together, this could rather quickly transform into a great prosperous team, otherwise a long lengthy process with a few arbitrations along the way!

[TFTMB heavy]

With the approval done, things will slowly fall into place. Naturally, this can happen a number of ways based on resources, market conditions and resistance vs. cooperation received from employee groups, and the company will most likely have multiple plans they can put in place.

The few conditions put forth can easily be met, for instance adding five new cities lends itself well to the existing expansion plans anyway. As well, likely WestJet vacations will be closed and its staff absorbed into Sunwing Vacations which will satisfy the 20% new hires condition. The company will likely want to close Sunwing airlines and fold it into Swoop. This will be dependent on the negotiations with ALPA regarding Swoop and how much it can grow, as the opposite may also be possible. The company will likely operate Sunwing separately until negotiations are complete.

As for Sunwing pilots, they likely are in no hurry to join ALPA as it will affect them enormously. With discussions of rebid and bump and flush, Sunwing pilots will naturally want to ensure none of those things are going to happen and their tenure is recognized. If all parties "play well" together, this could rather quickly transform into a great prosperous team, otherwise a long lengthy process with a few arbitrations along the way!

They can discuss it but there very rarely is a bump and flush. Way too expensive.

[cloak]

They can discuss it but there very rarely is a bump and flush. Way too expensive.

...And perhaps illegal!

[rudder]

They can discuss it but there very rarely is a bump and flush. Way too expensive.

...And perhaps illegal!

Undoubtedly an arbitrated list. There is almost a ZERO chance than an arbitration panel will include bump and flush in an award.

[cloak]

They can discuss it but there very rarely is a bump and flush. Way too expensive.

...And perhaps illegal!

Undoubtedly an arbitrated list. There is almost a ZERO chance than an arbitration panel will include bump and flush in an award.

I would agree. How does ALPA Canada view the MEC's current strategy for seeking rebid and bump and flush in its current CA negotiations and what negotiating capital do you think is going to be traded for that?

[hithere]

Which MEC is seeking rebid and bump and flush?

[rudder]

Which MEC is seeking rebid and bump and flush?

I don’t work at WJ but I assume that it pertains to WJ mainline and SWOOP. That has nothing to do with a merging of seniority lists. They already exist in a single bargaining unit. That is just a Filling of Assignments CBA issue subject to collective bargaining.

[JBI]

I would agree. How does ALPA Canada view the MEC's current strategy for seeking rebid and bump and flush in its current CA negotiations and what negotiating capital do you think is going to be traded for that?

Which MEC is seeking rebid and bump and flush?

I don’t work at WJ but I assume that it pertains to WJ mainline and SWOOP. That has nothing to do with a merging of seniority lists. They already exist in a single bargaining unit. That is just a Filling of Assignments CBA issue subject to collective bargaining.

Exactly as rudder has said. Although at first glance, the Swoop/WJ situation and the WestJet/Sunwing situations may seem similar, there are fundamental differences.

If it ends up being a merger between the WestJet and Sunning pilots groups it will be a multiple step process. First, through the CIRB and a vote, it would be necessary to determine who the bargaining agent would be for the group as a whole, ALPA or Unifor. While there may be some contentious discussion, my understanding is that the vote itself is simply based on numbers and the union with the most members usually, but not always, gets voted as the bargaining agent.

The next step would be how to integrate both the seniority lists and the Collective Agreements. Both WJ ALPA and Sunwing Unifor have already stood up a seniority/merger committee and have had discussions. My understanding is that so far, discussions between the two unions have been relatively amicable as both recognize the importance of not letting management whipsaw the groups against each other.

I've had some chats with good friends at Sunwing and I think it's fair to say that there will be some special considerations that the merger/seniority committee will need to work on. For example, WestJet's 787s and Sunwing's YUL and YQB bases. Should a senior WJ pilot suddenly be able to bump into a YQB base as soon as there's a merger even though WJ has never had a base in Quebec. Conversely, should a senior WG pilot be able to bump into a 787 position even though Sunwing has never operated wide bodies? To be clear, there are arguments on both sides and that's why committees have been stood up, to try and resolve these questions in the fairest way possible. Doesn't mean everyone will be happy, but it's pretty standard practice. Arguing over these items right now is moot as there's been no indication of what the company's intentions are nor how the airlines will be set up. At the end of the day, the separate pilot groups may need to involve an arbitrator and have assistance from the CIRB to resolve the issue, however, at first it will be two separate pilot groups negotiating on behalf of their members.

The WestJet/Swoop situation is entirely different. It is not a merging of airlines or seniority lists. It's simply a determination as to how positions should be awarded and what checks/balances/protection should be made available to pilots in one seniority list. WJ and Swoop pilots are both represented by the same bargaining unit/MEC. It is then up to the MEC to act in a manner that is fair to the pilot group as a whole. While Swoop DECs like cloak/elite understandably want to keep their position and base, if the new contract significantly alters the wages and working conditions at both WestJet and Swoop, there is an argument that it would be unfair to prevent more senior pilots from bidding on positions that are now substantially more attractive. At the same time, there is also an argument that having pilots bumped out of positions not during a reduction bid isn't fair either.

It's important to note that while the flash point of this discussion primarily deals with Swoop/WJ, it would apply to all positions and bases if there were substantial changes to wages/working conditions. For example, let's say that for whatever reason, there is a valid argument that in CA2, 787 positions should all get double what they're making now whereas 737 positions pay remains the same (obviously a hypothetical situation). Suddenly there would be a lot of senior 737 pilots who could hold 787 FO positions that would decide "hey, I want to be in that position now" - what's more fair, denying the senior pilots the ability to hold a position based on seniority? Or, protecting junior pilots who want to stay in their position which now suddenly pays better?

Again, arguing about it at this time is moot as there are no details about what will happen with CA2. The remedy for a pilot would be a DFR application, however, the test to show that there has been a breach of the duty of fairness is actually a tough one to meet. In the above 787 position example there is likely going to be one group of pilots who will be negatively affected. That doesn't mean the union breached their duty of fairness. One could argue that having a particular position that now pays significantly better is better for the pilot group as a whole even though someone currently holding said position no longer has the seniority to remain in that position.

[cloak]

To most, a forum is a public place for exchanging ideas, learning something or perhaps hearing some news. To others, it seems to be more about defending a narrative at all costs. And when they can't defend it based on merit, they attack others indirectly by trying to place them in a "box" and then try to discredit that "box" in a passive/aggressive way, by labeling them junior, senior, manager, or whatever serves their agenda. We see this commonly from "lawyers" for instance that they will resort to discrediting people, using fallacies, patronizing, etc. because to them a discussion is not about exchange of ideas and discovery of the truth, it is about winning and serving the "narrative".

In reality folks, if anyone wants to debate something and feel they can contribute to the discussion, they can freely do that and don't need permission or categorization from anyone else, regardless of what they do or where they do it!

[Go Guns]

I thought he laid out all the facts pretty black and white in a manner that was pretty easy to understand and without bias. Your reply, however, is a word salad akin to something a bad politician would say. Also, you can accuse him of placing you in a box, yet that's what you do to him.