Does Transat Still Send 2 Across The Atlantic?

[777Aviate]

I know big red's got 3 in the front doing atlantic crossing but last I heard was TSC is still sending 2 across the atlantic.

[Tbayer2021]

Most are 2, but some are 3 on the return. Honestly don't know scheduling's exact methodology because many of our southern turns are augmented with 3 pilots in total, whereas big red does the same flights with just 2.

[330heavy]

2 unless duty reg require 3 or more.

[Crewbunk]

Most are 2, but some are 3 on the return. Honestly don't know scheduling's exact methodology because many of our southern turns are augmented with 3 pilots in total, whereas big red does the same flights with just 2.

By “big red”, I assume you mean Rouge. Rouge crews to CARs limits. In fact, historically, it’s one of the reasons it was started, as it allowed AC to overcome the restrictions of the mainline pilot contract.

Most mainline (longer) Caribbean pairings are with a DH return or a 24 hour layover on a daily flight, like BGI.

But, if there are delays on a Rouge single day long Caribbean turn, often a 3rd pilot is sent to extend the day. It’s not planned that way, they use reserve.

[tupues]

Most are 2, but some are 3 on the return. Honestly don't know scheduling's exact methodology because many of our southern turns are augmented with 3 pilots in total, whereas big red does the same flights with just 2.

By “big red”, I assume you mean Rouge. Rouge crews to CARs limits. In fact, historically, it’s one of the reasons it was started, as it allowed AC to overcome the restrictions of the mainline pilot contract.

Most mainline (longer) Caribbean pairings are with a DH return or a 24 hour layover on a daily flight, like BGI.

But, if there are delays on a Rouge single day long Caribbean turn, often a 3rd pilot is sent to extend the day. It’s not planned that way, they use reserve.

Is that right? Does AC actually send 3 man crews across the pond on all trips? Or what is the maximum you can do with a 2 man crew at AC? How about domestic coast to coast?

I am just asking, because legally you could easily do it with 2 pilots...

[Canadaflyer46]

AC uses 2 for YYZ-LHR. So not all of the Atlantic trips have 3.

[ZBBYLW]

Rouge is following the ML CA at the moment. Under LOU74 it had different rules than ML, but it wasn't exactly to cars. Especially when it came to SFAN.

Rouge doesn't currently go to Europe.

ML does go to Europe with both 2 and 3 pilot pairings. Out of the west the pairings are all 3 pilots afaik. Out of YYZ/YUL they are mostly to CARs with the exception of the later flights where they add a 3rd on some legs to help mitigate the risk of a fatigue book off after a short delay.

Both ML and Rouge don't always go right to cars. At night for instance we could do red eye turns or stand ups on the east coast. We don't because under cars we are not allowed to fly fatigued and sometimes the risk to the operation is to get and many pilots would be unable to complete the turn without calling in fatigued.

[tupues]

Rouge is following the ML CA at the moment. Under LOU74 it had different rules than ML, but it wasn't exactly to cars. Especially when it came to SFAN.

Rouge doesn't currently go to Europe.

ML does go to Europe with both 2 and 3 pilot pairings. Out of the west the pairings are all 3 pilots afaik. Out of YYZ/YUL they are mostly to CARs with the exception of the later flights where they add a 3rd on some legs to help mitigate the risk of a fatigue book off after a short delay.

Both ML and Rouge don't always go right to cars. At night for instance we could do red eye turns or stand ups on the east coast. We don't because under cars we are not allowed to fly fatigued and sometimes the risk to the operation is to get and many pilots would be unable to complete the turn without calling in fatigued.

What about the coast to coast ones (like YUL - YVR). Would these typically be turns with AC?

[tupues]

AC uses 2 for YYZ-LHR. So not all of the Atlantic trips have 3.

That the only one?

[ZBBYLW]

They can be. Depends on a lot of factors. There are certainly some transcon turns depending on time of day etc.

Also many spots in the Caribbean are covered under an exemption to the new CARS through an FRMS program. So you may fly a UVF turn for example but max duty day is now 15 hours. In very Transport Canada like fashion they have brought in new fatigue rules to make us safer, but you can not fly longer?

[Crewbunk]

AC uses 2 for YYZ-LHR. So not all of the Atlantic trips have 3.

That the only one?

AC staffs by (Canada’s pathetic) CARS and union restrictions. However, the fatigue management committee assesses every pairing for fatigue and adjusts operations to mitigate fatigue. So even flights that would be legal for two pilots, AC crews more as the flight has been labled as “onerous”.

Interesting you mention YYZ-LHR. AC has four flights a day from YYZ to LHR. Each has been assessed for fatigue …. the result? The 1840 flight has two pilots, the other three (later) have three (and four) pilots.

AC pilots are encouraged to file fatigue reports. Often a flight that looks ok on paper, is not. These reports identify “hot spots” that might otherwise have been unnoticed. For example, there is a flight that leaves YYT at 0515. (0345 YYZ time) arriving at 0725. The pairing used to have them continue to YQR after 90 minutes between flights. It looks good on paper, but guys were nodding off abeam YQT on the way west.

Now, they get off in YYZ or DH and go home. (Battling traffic, God help them).

Because of these reports, AC does not do red-eye turns. Unless an IRROP, trans-con red eyes must start and end with an off duty period.

Yes, it’s expensive. So is an accident.

[tupues]

AC staffs by (Canada’s pathetic) CARS and union restrictions. However, the fatigue management committee assesses every pairing for fatigue and adjusts operations to mitigate fatigue. So even flights that would be legal for two pilots, AC crews more as the flight has been labled as “onerous”.

Interesting you mention YYZ-LHR. AC has four flights a day from YYZ to LHR. Each has been assessed for fatigue …. the result? The 1840 flight has two pilots, the other three (later) have three (and four) pilots.

AC pilots are encouraged to file fatigue reports. Often a flight that looks ok on paper, is not. These reports identify “hot spots” that might otherwise have been unnoticed. For example, there is a flight that leaves YYT at 0515. (0345 YYZ time) arriving at 0725. The pairing used to have them continue to YQR after 90 minutes between flights. It looks good on paper, but guys were nodding off abeam YQT on the way west.

Now, they get off in YYZ or DH and go home. (Battling traffic, God help them).

Because of these reports, AC does not do red-eye turns. Unless an IRROP, trans-con red eyes must start and end with an off duty period.

Yes, it’s expensive. So is an accident.

Thats very interesting - thanks for that insight. So its safe to say that most mainland Europe flights would be 3 man crew then, given even the relatively short LHR is one.

[NotDirty!]

A lot depends on time of day… someone has finally realized that doing a YYZ-YVR-YYZ turn, starting at 0700 and finishing at 1900 is a lot less fatiguing than doing exactly the same flying time, but staring at 1900 and finishing at 0700!

The FRMS exemptions are kind of funny… the long turns that Rouge used to be allowed to do, but mainline wasn’t because the mainline contract was more restrictive than the CARs…. Well now both mainline and rouge can do them, working under “mainline rules”, because of the FRMS risk assessment, data collection, etc. But those are all long, daytime turns, that should be under 13 hours total, unless there is a delay.

[Eric Janson]

Not too familiar with the CARs but under EASA we have to concept of 'acclimitized' and 'not acclimitized'.

Reporting time will determine maximum duty on the outbound sector.

On the return sector crews will have less allowable duty depending on the amount of rest and number of time zones crossed away from their acclimitized time zone.

It's very complicated but in general East - West flying is more restrictive than North - South.