777 Partners

[cantraveler]

Landed on this forum after Flair had their 4 planes seized. Not an industry insider, just a traveler who booked the family summer vacation using Flair before the seizures. However the more reading I do on Flair and their parent company, 777 Partners, the more concerned I am regarding my summer vacation.

This article from the Seattle Times indicates that 777 Partners was not able to take their planned deliveries from Boeing.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... e-balance/

This comment is concerning as well: "According to multiple industry sources close to Boeing, that delivery glitch has shaken Boeing’s faith in 777 Partners."

To top it off, Adam Weiss, the head of Aviation at 777 Partners seems like a real piece of work based on the article. The more I learn about Flair and its parent, the more I am getting concerned about my travel plans.

[Bede]

Members of my extended family are booked for big family vacation over Christmas next year. We’re worried too, for all the reasons you mention.

[Little Star]

"Airborne added that despite repeated direct messages that Flair had to meet its obligations, “missed payments and lease defaults persisted.”

Jones does not dispute that the airline regularly paid late."

Do the lawyers not understand equitable estoppel?

[cdnavater]

Landed on this forum after Flair had their 4 planes seized. Not an industry insider, just a traveler who booked the family summer vacation using Flair before the seizures. However the more reading I do on Flair and their parent company, 777 Partners, the more concerned I am regarding my summer vacation.

This article from the Seattle Times indicates that 777 Partners was not able to take their planned deliveries from Boeing.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... e-balance/

This comment is concerning as well: "According to multiple industry sources close to Boeing, that delivery glitch has shaken Boeing’s faith in 777 Partners."

To top it off, Adam Weiss, the head of Aviation at 777 Partners seems like a real piece of work based on the article. The more I learn about Flair and its parent, the more I am getting concerned about my travel plans.

I really wish people would either not provide a link that needs a subscription to read or copy and paste the content, pretty darn annoying

[cantraveler]

I really wish people would either not provide a link that needs a subscription to read or copy and paste the content, pretty darn annoying

Here is the article without a subscription: https://archive.ph/7cLYU

The more research I do on 777 Partners, the worse the story is. The following Globe and Mail article ( https://archive.ph/Qo56N ) states: "In 2004, 777 Partners co-founder Mr. Wander was convicted of cocaine trafficking in a Florida court, pleading no contest to the charges. He received 16 years’ probation, according to Florida court records."

So the co-founder and 777 Partners company leader, Joshua Craig Wander, is a convicted felon and drug trafficker. Really can't make this stuff up.

[200Above]

I really wish people would either not provide a link that needs a subscription to read or copy and paste the content, pretty darn annoying

Here is the article without a subscription: https://archive.ph/7cLYU

The more research I do on 777 Partners, the worse the story is. The following Globe and Mail article ( https://archive.ph/Qo56N ) states: "In 2004, 777 Partners co-founder Mr. Wander was convicted of cocaine trafficking in a Florida court, pleading no contest to the charges. He received 16 years’ probation, according to Florida court records."

So the co-founder and 777 Partners company leader, Joshua Craig Wander, is a convicted felon and drug trafficker. Really can't make this stuff up.

Yikes. That's a spicy article on a number of levels.

[SPR]

Stephen Jones must be an absolute nightmare to do business with. He sounds like a tenant who constantly pays the rent late because he thinks he can get away with it and there's nothing the landlord can do; when he receives an eviction notice, he strips the pipes and wires out of the walls and destroys the bathroom fixtures.

“It was $1.3 million that was overdue, outside the grace period, by about five days,” Jones said. “And I was in communication with Airborne telling them they would be paid early in the following week, Monday, Tuesday.”

It filed a $50 million lawsuit last week against Ireland-based lessor Airborne Capital, which had seized the planes, as well as other lessors and an unnamed competing airline, alleging the lessors took advantage of a “technical default” because they “found a better deal” leasing the planes elsewhere...Jones does not dispute that the airline regularly paid late.

"Yes, I technically didn't pay my rent, but it's the landlord's fault that they evicted me!"

According to an interview Jones gave to the Globe & Mail in Toronto, the other seven planes were saved from that fate only when 777 Partners finally made the lease payments.

The CTA is going to hate that. Flair might not be shut down financially, but there's a high probability their licence is pulled.

He declined to comment on whether 777 Partners will provide funding, saying “we don’t lay our finances out in the media.”
Funding from 777 Partners is sensitive because the Canadian Transportation Authority cleared Flair to operate as a Canadian airline last June after judging that it no longer remains dependent on 777 for the lease of its aircraft.

Also, this article really puts paid to the lies that someone was trying to spread here that the seizures were done illegally using RAICs to get airside, and that charges were pending.

As the sun rose, two police vehicles drove out onto the tarmac and parked alongside the jet. Officers got out and inspected documents citing nonpayment of the airplane lease. The paperwork in order, the bailiffs seized the airplane and the flight was abruptly canceled.

[DanWEC]

I knew that 777 would front the payments by proxy from Flair.

This is not rocket science, 777 has created a lesee customer in Flair. That's it. Who gives a crap if the airline is making money? They don't. They only need them to stay viable. The amount of capital they need to inject, with interest or not is irrelevant because their exposure is far more than covered by the incoming payments in perpetuity.
This arrangement is why I'm genuinely concerned about their longevity. Their environment is somewhat fabricated, and when the numbers run their course that's it.

There are words that Rob Deluce said years ago that ring hard with me: "The real money is, and always will be, in aircraft leasing."

[HatInTheRing]

I really wish people would either not provide a link that needs a subscription to read or copy and paste the content, pretty darn annoying

Here is the article without a subscription: https://archive.ph/7cLYU

The more research I do on 777 Partners, the worse the story is. The following Globe and Mail article ( https://archive.ph/Qo56N ) states: "In 2004, 777 Partners co-founder Mr. Wander was convicted of cocaine trafficking in a Florida court, pleading no contest to the charges. He received 16 years’ probation, according to Florida court records."

So the co-founder and 777 Partners company leader, Joshua Craig Wander, is a convicted felon and drug trafficker. Really can't make this stuff up.

To be fair, we're talking about a hedge fund manager in Miami. I'm pretty sure they have to do drug tests to weed out any lunatics who test negative for coke.

[co-joe]

Landed on this forum after Flair had their 4 planes seized. Not an industry insider, just a traveler ...

I bet his IP address leads back to the 2nd floor of 22 Aerial Pl NE Calgary Alberta, WestJet offices. It's been a week since somebody posted a negative article about WestJet's only competition, better start a new one eh...

[SPR]

These people probably work for WestJet too, right? https://calgary.citynews.ca/2023/03/21/ ... d-calgary/ The only time people say anything bad about Flair is when they're terrified that Flair is going to eat their lunch, right? It's all just a big conspiracy...

[cdnavater]

Landed on this forum after Flair had their 4 planes seized. Not an industry insider, just a traveler ...

I bet his IP address leads back to the 2nd floor of 22 Aerial Pl NE Calgary Alberta, WestJet offices. It's been a week since somebody posted a negative article about WestJet's only competition, better start a new one eh...

It’s sad when someone gets addicted to the koolaid, you want to help but you know they won’t accept any help until they hit rock bottom.
However, since this is an anonymous forum, I’ll say, “just because you are paranoid, doesn’t mean they are not after you!”

[cantraveler]

Landed on this forum after Flair had their 4 planes seized. Not an industry insider, just a traveler ...

I bet his IP address leads back to the 2nd floor of 22 Aerial Pl NE Calgary Alberta, WestJet offices. It's been a week since somebody posted a negative article about WestJet's only competition, better start a new one eh...

I can assure you I am not from Westjet or work in the airline industry. The forum moderator can check my IP. I am a Flair customer and when the news broke of the seizures, I started researching given I have a flight booked in August. I read a lot of news articles, started reading through threads in this forum and even read the CTA ruling from last June. In fact, probably did too much research but I did find the story interesting.

That being said, not sure if Flair and 777 Partners is representative of the airline industry as a whole. Seems like a chaotic way of running a business and don't know how Flair's business partners tolerate this. Perhaps this is just the way the airline industry runs though. On a very thin edge between solvency and bankruptcy.

Also as an outsider to this forum, the members who have been critical of Flair and posted hard evidence on issues have more credibility than the Flair supporters. Many of the predictions and issues raised months ago have materialized even though they were dismissed by Flair supporters.

[thepoors]

Landed on this forum after Flair had their 4 planes seized. Not an industry insider, just a traveler ...

I bet his IP address leads back to the 2nd floor of 22 Aerial Pl NE Calgary Alberta, WestJet offices. It's been a week since somebody posted a negative article about WestJet's only competition, better start a new one eh...

Wow man you're really obsessed with WJ eh? Is Jones sending everyone tinfoil? Nvm prob can't afford that. Just don't make eye contact with their crews in the terminal you'll be okay.

Joking aside, they have their own problems. You guys did this all on your own. I wouldn't bash them too much, after all what are you going to do with that 37 type rating when Flair goes tits up?

[MKFlair]

777 doesn't lease aircraft to Flair. THey have made purchases of aircraft with Boeing (at a discount) and sell the aircraft to leasing companies, some of who lease those aircraft to Flair and some who lease them to others, such as Sunwing. A very common practice.

Cantravelor - since new articles are your source of truth I'd suggest looking at the history of Westjet to gain some perspective. Look at their spying on Air Canada, their illegal access of Air Canada's load information etc. Look at their current CEO's comments about pilots and other employees. WJ laid off hundreds of people last week - ask those people about how they were treated. Internally they are calling in Tombstone day!

There is more than meets the eye with regards to the 4 aircraft that Airbourne took back.

[the_new_guy]

Landed on this forum after Flair had their 4 planes seized. Not an industry insider, just a traveler who booked the family summer vacation using Flair before the seizures. However the more reading I do on Flair and their parent company, 777 Partners, the more concerned I am regarding my summer vacation.

This article from the Seattle Times indicates that 777 Partners was not able to take their planned deliveries from Boeing.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... e-balance/

This comment is concerning as well: "According to multiple industry sources close to Boeing, that delivery glitch has shaken Boeing’s faith in 777 Partners."

To top it off, Adam Weiss, the head of Aviation at 777 Partners seems like a real piece of work based on the article. The more I learn about Flair and its parent, the more I am getting concerned about my travel plans.

Your concerns are understandable. I hope you don't stress out too much over it though. If you have a look around this forum, you'll see a couple of articles basically all saying the same thing, very few having details. And none whatsoever having internal details on any side of the fence.

Flair is currently flying its full schedule, and adjusting the months to come schedule wise to make sure the flights are operated.

Also, coming to a forum for further information on the subject isn't a bad idea per say, but if you look around you'll see most comments are less than illustrate or objective.

My opinion, don't overthink it. If the facts change, then you'll have time to adjust accordingly.

[co-joe]

These people probably work for WestJet too, right? https://calgary.citynews.ca/2023/03/21/ ... d-calgary/ The only time people say anything bad about Flair is when they're terrified that Flair is going to eat their lunch, right? It's all just a big conspiracy...

If you want to play that game, how long would it take us to find 10 articles about WestJet, Sunwing, and Air Canada stranding thousands of passengers in the past 6 months?

We get it, the culture at your employer is so poisonous, your are so angry, and you blame us for the bed you are lying in. Waaaaa, Clive was mean to us. Waaaaah Swoop is eating our lunch. Waaaaa it's Flair's fault.....

[DanWEC]

777 doesn't lease aircraft to Flair. THey have made purchases of aircraft with Boeing (at a discount) and sell the aircraft to leasing companies, some of who lease those aircraft to Flair and some who lease them to others

Not to drift the thread, but countless sources from both financial and aviation outlets all state 777 as the direct lessor for at least 14 tails currently at Flair and also as the intended lessor for 30 something on order....

[SPR]

These people probably work for WestJet too, right? https://calgary.citynews.ca/2023/03/21/ ... d-calgary/ The only time people say anything bad about Flair is when they're terrified that Flair is going to eat their lunch, right? It's all just a big conspiracy...

If you want to play that game, how long would it take us to find 10 articles about WestJet, Sunwing, and Air Canada stranding thousands of passengers in the past 6 months?

We get it, the culture at your employer is so poisonous, your are so angry, and you blame us for the bed you are lying in. Waaaaa, Clive was mean to us. Waaaaah Swoop is eating our lunch. Waaaaa it's Flair's fault.....

You really are completely obsessed with WestJet, aren't you? I don't work for any Flair competitors; I don't even fly passengers. I'm just annoyed by the sliminess of your company's whole operation and how aggressively you all insert yourselves into every conversation. I've met multi-level marketing salespeople who were less pushy than Flair employees. There have been red flags flying all over the place for the last year, but anyone who presents any evidence that maybe things aren't as rosy as you've been making out is labelled a conspiracy theorist who's trying to tear down a threat to the establishment; if Flair fails, it won't be due to their own mismanagement, it'll be because Team Teal and Big Red got together with Airborne to hurt them, because they're terrified of the competition, right? It's like a cult.

[cantraveler]

More meddling by 777 Partners with Flair. Now they are redirecting a 737 Max 8 that was destined to Bonza in Australia to Flair.

777’s Canadian budget carrier stumbles, and Bonza loses an aircraft