New pay scales

[CaptDukeNukem]

I disagree. Having 1 life in your hands should bring out the same amount of professionalism as flying 100 lives around. If I chose to fly a caravan in northern Canada, does that mean I can be less responsible?……..no

While I do agree that passenger counts do factor in slightly into pay scales, I think the 737s,320s,E2s,220s are too close to differentiate on that scale.

100% the professionalism should be there no matter what. How much you get paid shouldn't dictate how much professionalism you exhibit. That's not what the increased pay is for. It's extra compensation for the added responsibility of stuff like: Better chance of a medical emergency, unruly, some sort of other passenger issue, managing a larger crew. And if shit hits the fan, The 777 captain is ultimately responsible for a bigger evacuation than the Northern Caravan guy.

Hmm, I’ll just leave this here so you two idiots can respond

So now that you’re butt hurt… you’re trying to pin us against each other? Lol. Your cost per seat Mile calculation is crap. Why don’t you break it down by weight calculation. Use the “stone” math while you’re at it.

Braap brought up some good points in that post, none of which reinforce your position. I respect the man. You however, are a dinosaur. Good day sir

[goleafsgo]

How’s the schedule been on the e2 so far? Are there many multi day pairings or is it a lot of single day turns? Also what’s the take home pay like?

[cdnavater]

I don’t know why you have a problem with it, it’s just how it works, btw I’m pretty sure AC formula pay includes weight, maybe not the stone math though.
https://airspeedjunkie.com/blogs/blog/a ... ilots-make
Lesson #3 Airline pilot pay scales change after year one

Year one is the magic number, after year one you get off probation and you move up to second year pay. Airline pilot pay is based on aircraft seating. Basically the more seats, the more per hour you make. This is the same as aircraft type in the bullets below.

Example: Second year pay, major airline

737-700 = $124/hour
757-200 = $139/hour
767-300 = $147/hour

[CaptDukeNukem]

How’s the schedule been on the e2 so far? Are there many multi day pairings or is it a lot of single day turns? Also what’s the take home pay like?

Most of the pairings are multi day. Often single legs with a decent layover.
Some single days. Some splits or continuous duty, or stand ups (whatever you call them).
Left seat take home pay on 80 MMG ~$4000
Right seat take home per pay around ~$1800.

[rudder]

How’s the schedule been on the e2 so far? Are there many multi day pairings or is it a lot of single day turns? Also what’s the take home pay like?

Most of the pairings are multi day. Often single legs with a decent layover.
Some single days. Some splits or continuous duty, or stand ups (whatever you call them).
Left seat take home pay on 80 MMG ~$4000
Right seat take home per pay around ~$1800.

I assume you mean these numbers x 2 for net monthly take home pay?

[CaptDukeNukem]

How’s the schedule been on the e2 so far? Are there many multi day pairings or is it a lot of single day turns? Also what’s the take home pay like?

Most of the pairings are multi day. Often single legs with a decent layover.
Some single days. Some splits or continuous duty, or stand ups (whatever you call them).
Left seat take home pay on 80 MMG ~$4000
Right seat take home per pay around ~$1800.

I assume you mean these numbers x 2 for net monthly take home pay?

Oops yes my mistake. Sorry. Numbers above are per cheque.

[khedrei]

I'm certainly not an expert in airline revenue but I'm pretty sure its ALOT more complicated than number of seats to determine what they can afford to pay a pilot to fly that plane.

Supply and demand of routes changes seat prices dramatically as well as how far in advance passengers book, time of the year and even day of the week. Fuel prices and pilot salary are both more stable than the former.

Thats why tickets to Florida can be cheaper than a ticket from YYZ to YAM or YYZ to YUL.

There are also some interesting videos of how some airlines (in the US i think) make more money on their points systems than flying passengers.

[cdnavater]

I'm certainly not an expert in airline revenue but I'm pretty sure its ALOT more complicated than number of seats to determine what they can afford to pay a pilot to fly that plane.

Supply and demand of routes changes seat prices dramatically as well as how far in advance passengers book, time of the year and even day of the week. Fuel prices and pilot salary are both more stable than the former.

Thats why tickets to Florida can be cheaper than a ticket from YYZ to YAM or YYZ to YUL.

There are also some interesting videos of how some airlines (in the US i think) make more money on their points systems than flying passengers.

To borrow from another poster here, “jfc” do you know what CASM is, it’s cost per available seat mile, do you know what factors into the cost of each seat, Pilot fucking wages, ffs how fucken hard is it to grasp, more available seats mean the ability to make more fucking money.
Show me any airline that pays more for the pilots of a 737 than those of a 777, any on planet earth, you won’t find one

[CaptDukeNukem]

I'm certainly not an expert in airline revenue but I'm pretty sure its ALOT more complicated than number of seats to determine what they can afford to pay a pilot to fly that plane.

Supply and demand of routes changes seat prices dramatically as well as how far in advance passengers book, time of the year and even day of the week. Fuel prices and pilot salary are both more stable than the former.

Thats why tickets to Florida can be cheaper than a ticket from YYZ to YAM or YYZ to YUL.

There are also some interesting videos of how some airlines (in the US i think) make more money on their points systems than flying passengers.

To borrow from another poster here, “jfc” do you know what CASM is, it’s cost per available seat mile, do you know what factors into the cost of each seat, Pilot fucking wages, ffs how fucken hard is it to grasp, more available seats mean the ability to make more fucking money.
Show me any airline that pays more for the pilots of a 737 than those of a 777, any on planet earth, you won’t find one

Yea. Year 1 AC FO, on a triple 7. Versus envoy regional in USA.

Oh wait, that’s a 175. You asked for 737. Sorry, don’t have those rates


If you’re talking about Canada. FO on 777 CASM is probably low. But great. Glad that you’re getting paid CASM at jazz

[Canadaflyer46]

I'm certainly not an expert in airline revenue but I'm pretty sure its ALOT more complicated than number of seats to determine what they can afford to pay a pilot to fly that plane.

Supply and demand of routes changes seat prices dramatically as well as how far in advance passengers book, time of the year and even day of the week. Fuel prices and pilot salary are both more stable than the former.

Thats why tickets to Florida can be cheaper than a ticket from YYZ to YAM or YYZ to YUL.

There are also some interesting videos of how some airlines (in the US i think) make more money on their points systems than flying passengers.

To borrow from another poster here, “jfc” do you know what CASM is, it’s cost per available seat mile, do you know what factors into the cost of each seat, Pilot fucking wages, ffs how fucken hard is it to grasp, more available seats mean the ability to make more fucking money.
Show me any airline that pays more for the pilots of a 737 than those of a 777, any on planet earth, you won’t find one

Yea. Year 1 AC FO, on a triple 7. Versus envoy regional in USA.

The purser is usually making more than a year 1 FO (flat pay) on a widebody at AC. Lowest paid widebody FOs in the world I believe.

[cdnavater]

I'm certainly not an expert in airline revenue but I'm pretty sure its ALOT more complicated than number of seats to determine what they can afford to pay a pilot to fly that plane.

Supply and demand of routes changes seat prices dramatically as well as how far in advance passengers book, time of the year and even day of the week. Fuel prices and pilot salary are both more stable than the former.

Thats why tickets to Florida can be cheaper than a ticket from YYZ to YAM or YYZ to YUL.

There are also some interesting videos of how some airlines (in the US i think) make more money on their points systems than flying passengers.

To borrow from another poster here, “jfc” do you know what CASM is, it’s cost per available seat mile, do you know what factors into the cost of each seat, Pilot fucking wages, ffs how fucken hard is it to grasp, more available seats mean the ability to make more fucking money.
Show me any airline that pays more for the pilots of a 737 than those of a 777, any on planet earth, you won’t find one

Yea. Year 1 AC FO, on a triple 7. Versus envoy regional in USA.

Oh wait, that’s a 175. You asked for 737. Sorry, don’t have those rates


If you’re talking about Canada. FO on 777 CASM is probably low. But great. Glad that you’re getting paid CASM at jazz

Jesus you sure are obtuse, apparently I need to spell it out for you, read this very slowly as you are slow minded and reading slow may help, in the same airline, s a m e a i r l i n e, show me any that pay the pilots of a smaller airplane with less seats more than the pilots of a larger airplane with more seats, umm kk

To add to that, if the airline pays you 1 dollar per seat per hour, on a two hour flight they will have to take 2 dollars per seat and give it to you, do you understand now how simple math works, if you want 4 dollars per seat per hour on a two hour flight they will need to part with 8 dollars per seat and give it to you.
Now if you fly a smaller airplane say half the seats and you also want 4 dollars per seat per hour, they will now have to part with 16 dollars per seat for the same two hour flight, see how that works. If you don’t understand now, I can’t help you, you might just be too stupid

[CaptDukeNukem]

To borrow from another poster here, “jfc” do you know what CASM is, it’s cost per available seat mile, do you know what factors into the cost of each seat, Pilot fucking wages, ffs how fucken hard is it to grasp, more available seats mean the ability to make more fucking money.
Show me any airline that pays more for the pilots of a 737 than those of a 777, any on planet earth, you won’t find one

Yea. Year 1 AC FO, on a triple 7. Versus envoy regional in USA.

Oh wait, that’s a 175. You asked for 737. Sorry, don’t have those rates


If you’re talking about Canada. FO on 777 CASM is probably low. But great. Glad that you’re getting paid CASM at jazz

Jesus you sure are obtuse, apparently I need to spell it out for you, read this very slowly as you are slow minded and reading slow may help, in the same airline, s a m e a i r l i n e, show me any that pay the pilots of a smaller airplane with less seats more than the pilots of a larger airplane with more seats, umm kk

Lol. Sure.

[CaptDukeNukem]

To borrow from another poster here, “jfc” do you know what CASM is, it’s cost per available seat mile, do you know what factors into the cost of each seat, Pilot fucking wages, ffs how fucken hard is it to grasp, more available seats mean the ability to make more fucking money.
Show me any airline that pays more for the pilots of a 737 than those of a 777, any on planet earth, you won’t find one

Yea. Year 1 AC FO, on a triple 7. Versus envoy regional in USA.

Oh wait, that’s a 175. You asked for 737. Sorry, don’t have those rates


If you’re talking about Canada. FO on 777 CASM is probably low. But great. Glad that you’re getting paid CASM at jazz

Jesus you sure are obtuse, apparently I need to spell it out for you, read this very slowly as you are slow minded and reading slow may help, in the same airline, s a m e a i r l i n e, show me any that pay the pilots of a smaller airplane with less seats more than the pilots of a larger airplane with more seats, umm kk

To add to that, if the airline pays you 1 dollar per seat per hour, on a two hour flight they will have to take 2 dollars per seat and give it to you, do you understand now how simple math works, if you want 4 dollars per seat per hour on a two hour flight they will need to part with 8 dollars per seat and give it to you.
Now if you fly a smaller airplane say half the seats and you also want 4 dollars per seat per hour, they will now have to part with 16 dollars per seat for the same two hour flight, see how that works. If you don’t understand now, I can’t help you, you might just be too stupid

Here’s the fun part:

You’re getting paid 8 dollars and I’m getting 20.

Actually, I think most of the country is making more than you.

Good luck to you sir

[cdnavater]

Yea. Year 1 AC FO, on a triple 7. Versus envoy regional in USA.

Oh wait, that’s a 175. You asked for 737. Sorry, don’t have those rates


If you’re talking about Canada. FO on 777 CASM is probably low. But great. Glad that you’re getting paid CASM at jazz

Jesus you sure are obtuse, apparently I need to spell it out for you, read this very slowly as you are slow minded and reading slow may help, in the same airline, s a m e a i r l i n e, show me any that pay the pilots of a smaller airplane with less seats more than the pilots of a larger airplane with more seats, umm kk

To add to that, if the airline pays you 1 dollar per seat per hour, on a two hour flight they will have to take 2 dollars per seat and give it to you, do you understand now how simple math works, if you want 4 dollars per seat per hour on a two hour flight they will need to part with 8 dollars per seat and give it to you.
Now if you fly a smaller airplane say half the seats and you also want 4 dollars per seat per hour, they will now have to part with 16 dollars per seat for the same two hour flight, see how that works. If you don’t understand now, I can’t help you, you might just be too stupid

Here’s the fun part:

You’re getting paid 8 dollars and I’m getting 20.

Actually, I think most of the country is making more than you.

Good luck to you sir

Good luck to you, not sure how you dress yourself, you are not making that much more than me, you should go back and review my earlier presentation. If and I have serious doubts Porter hired you as a Captain but if you are, it’s year 1 and with my training override and pension, I’m definitely making more than you.
If Porter’s E2 is still around in three years, you might make slightly more but I still have a way better pension, wait that’s not hard to do considering you don’t have one, plus from what I’m hearing, you might need to use Jazz for your benchmark to get a raise next year!

[CaptDukeNukem]

Jesus you sure are obtuse, apparently I need to spell it out for you, read this very slowly as you are slow minded and reading slow may help, in the same airline, s a m e a i r l i n e, show me any that pay the pilots of a smaller airplane with less seats more than the pilots of a larger airplane with more seats, umm kk

To add to that, if the airline pays you 1 dollar per seat per hour, on a two hour flight they will have to take 2 dollars per seat and give it to you, do you understand now how simple math works, if you want 4 dollars per seat per hour on a two hour flight they will need to part with 8 dollars per seat and give it to you.
Now if you fly a smaller airplane say half the seats and you also want 4 dollars per seat per hour, they will now have to part with 16 dollars per seat for the same two hour flight, see how that works. If you don’t understand now, I can’t help you, you might just be too stupid

Here’s the fun part:

You’re getting paid 8 dollars and I’m getting 20.

Actually, I think most of the country is making more than you.

Good luck to you sir

Good luck to you, not sure how you dress yourself, you are not making that much more than me, you should go back and review my earlier presentation. If and I have serious doubts Porter hired you as a Captain but if you are, it’s year 1 and with my training override and pension, I’m definitely making more than you.
If Porter’s E2 is still around in three years, you might make slightly more but I still have a way better pension, wait that’s not hard to do considering you don’t have one, plus from what I’m hearing, you might need to use Jazz for your benchmark to get a raise next year!

Yea. Jazz rates brought us down for the benchmarking in 2023. Totally hope you guys get a raise.

[khedrei]

Jesus you sure are obtuse, apparently I need to spell it out for you, read this very slowly as you are slow minded and reading slow may help, in the same airline, s a m e a i r l i n e, show me any that pay the pilots of a smaller airplane with less seats more than the pilots of a larger airplane with more seats, umm kk

To add to that, if the airline pays you 1 dollar per seat per hour, on a two hour flight they will have to take 2 dollars per seat and give it to you, do you understand now how simple math works, if you want 4 dollars per seat per hour on a two hour flight they will need to part with 8 dollars per seat and give it to you.
Now if you fly a smaller airplane say half the seats and you also want 4 dollars per seat per hour, they will now have to part with 16 dollars per seat for the same two hour flight, see how that works. If you don’t understand now, I can’t help you, you might just be too stupid

Here’s the fun part:

You’re getting paid 8 dollars and I’m getting 20.

Actually, I think most of the country is making more than you.

Good luck to you sir

Good luck to you, not sure how you dress yourself, you are not making that much more than me, you should go back and review my earlier presentation. If and I have serious doubts Porter hired you as a Captain but if you are, it’s year 1 and with my training override and pension, I’m definitely making more than you.
If Porter’s E2 is still around in three years, you might make slightly more but I still have a way better pension, wait that’s not hard to do considering you don’t have one, plus from what I’m hearing, you might need to use Jazz for your benchmark to get a raise next year!

Still trying to figure out if this guy is for real....

[cdnavater]

Here’s the fun part:

You’re getting paid 8 dollars and I’m getting 20.

Actually, I think most of the country is making more than you.

Good luck to you sir

Good luck to you, not sure how you dress yourself, you are not making that much more than me, you should go back and review my earlier presentation. If and I have serious doubts Porter hired you as a Captain but if you are, it’s year 1 and with my training override and pension, I’m definitely making more than you.
If Porter’s E2 is still around in three years, you might make slightly more but I still have a way better pension, wait that’s not hard to do considering you don’t have one, plus from what I’m hearing, you might need to use Jazz for your benchmark to get a raise next year!

Yea. Jazz rates brought us down for the benchmarking in 2023. Totally hope you guys get a raise.

Do you see the problem there, your fake union fell for it, your company convinced them that 76 seats is the same as 132 seats.
You know the company has a way of calculating their fixed cost to operate an airplane, it’s called CASM and part of that is pilot and FA wages, I’m sure the formula includes the speed of the aircraft but they know exactly how much pilot wages cost each seat per mile.
I’ve just simplified it to a straightforward cost per seat per hour, about 13 years ago, during the 2015 contract negotiations, I calculated the wages for the entire AC fleet and every aircraft was within a few cents of each other for both positions.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that this simple method works out to a few cents difference for every aircraft?
Of course for the airbus I had to average out the seats with the three types and for Jazz we had a bunch of 50 seat aircraft which brought the average down a bit but it still averaged out to the same cost per seat.
Seriously though, if you think this is so stupid, please tell me how they do figure it out.
Hint, it has nothing to do with more responsibility.

[cdnavater]

Here’s the fun part:

You’re getting paid 8 dollars and I’m getting 20.

Actually, I think most of the country is making more than you.

Good luck to you sir

Good luck to you, not sure how you dress yourself, you are not making that much more than me, you should go back and review my earlier presentation. If and I have serious doubts Porter hired you as a Captain but if you are, it’s year 1 and with my training override and pension, I’m definitely making more than you.
If Porter’s E2 is still around in three years, you might make slightly more but I still have a way better pension, wait that’s not hard to do considering you don’t have one, plus from what I’m hearing, you might need to use Jazz for your benchmark to get a raise next year!

Still trying to figure out if this guy is for real....

I am a real boy!
What part do you dispute?

[cjp]

...

Still trying to figure out if this guy is for real....

I am a real boy!
What part do you dispute?

Not much to dispute, I'm guessing you're DC, not DB. It's certainly one of the only things the majority of AC pilots talk about to justify their choice in employer. I guess the end justifies the means.

What metrics make you think Porter won't be around after 3 years?

Betting against Porter in Canadian aviation is like betting against Tesla. You'd be half right because of the risk the Deluces have taken on, but they picked a strong segment to chip away at. They've got the right machine, they've got an established customer base, and they've got the right product. Pricing is finding it's footing.

Biggest weakness is aggressive growth with a finite flight crew supply - and let's be honest - a decent but slightly above average salary on both sides of the cockpit.

U.S flying coming shortly.

[cdnavater]

Still trying to figure out if this guy is for real....

I am a real boy!
What part do you dispute?

Not much to dispute, I'm guessing you're DC, not DB. It's certainly one of the only things the majority of AC pilots talk about to justify their choice in employer. I guess the end justifies the means.

What metrics make you think Porter won't be around after 3 years?

Betting against Porter in Canadian aviation is like betting against Tesla. You'd be half right because of the risk the Deluces have taken on, but they picked a strong segment to chip away at. They've got the right machine, they've got an established customer base, and they've got the right product. Pricing is finding it's footing.

Biggest weakness is aggressive growth with a finite flight crew supply - and let's be honest - a decent but slightly above average salary on both sides of the cockpit.

U.S flying coming shortly.

Not betting against Porter, just highlighting the risks with an aggressive growth strategy into a market with established operators, it isn’t really working out for Flair and Porter doesn’t have a reward program so how many business travellers do you think will jump over?
But mostly just tired of the ex-Jazz guys slagging it with outright exaggerations of how bad it was, presumably to justify their decision to jump ship.
The pay is the major issue that needs addressing, no question but to say the maintenance is the worst, etc…
I take offence, anyhow good luck and I hope it works but the pay would need to increase significantly to lure away anyone who was hired before 2015 from Jazz.
I am on the DB pension, you may have reversed that, DC is the new pension