Negotiations

[truedude]

How can anyone be sure that it was AC who didn’t honour the agreement? Jazz needed to stop attrition or they were about to park airplanes.

In this case it doesn't matter who failed to honour the agreement. Our contract was clearly violated, and that is what the grievance will address. If we are successful, then Jazz and AC can figure out who is to blame, if Jazz wishes to pursue the matter with them. But when it comes to the grievance being filed, it really doesn't matter who failed to honour it, the only thing that matters is that the contract was violated.

And what exactly are you hoping to achieve through this “grievance” process?

Same as most grievances, money. The failure to honour the flow as stated on the contract meant nearly 300 pilots will have some 300 +people forever senior to them at Air Canada, impacting everything from bidding rights, vacation, wage increases, the list goes on. What do you think the dollar value of that might be? It isn't small. And then there are the people who would have been upgraded at Jazz sooner, had the base they wanted sooner, what so you think that is worth? Again, a fair bit of money.

[cdnavater]

How can anyone be sure that it was AC who didn’t honour the agreement? Jazz needed to stop attrition or they were about to park airplanes.

In this case it doesn't matter who failed to honour the agreement. Our contract was clearly violated, and that is what the grievance will address. If we are successful, then Jazz and AC can figure out who is to blame, if Jazz wishes to pursue the matter with them. But when it comes to the grievance being filed, it really doesn't matter who failed to honour it, the only thing that matters is that the contract was violated.

And what exactly are you hoping to achieve through this “grievance” process?

Besides the damage done to all Jazz pilots, including the senior pilots who’ve not had a significant pay increase since the flow was introduced, if you don’t defend a clear contract violation, the contract itself becomes worthless. We were all held back monetarily due to this feature, there will be a monetary settlement, whether it’s an agreement or arbitration is up to the companies.
You give them an inch, guaranteed they will take a mile, look at WJ the company is apparently violating the contract constantly.
You grieve every violation for contract enforcement and hope once they get the message, they stop!

[PostmasterGeneral]

In this case it doesn't matter who failed to honour the agreement. Our contract was clearly violated, and that is what the grievance will address. If we are successful, then Jazz and AC can figure out who is to blame, if Jazz wishes to pursue the matter with them. But when it comes to the grievance being filed, it really doesn't matter who failed to honour it, the only thing that matters is that the contract was violated.

And what exactly are you hoping to achieve through this “grievance” process?

Same as most grievances, money. The failure to honour the flow as stated on the contract meant nearly 300 pilots will have some 300 +people forever senior to them at Air Canada, impacting everything from bidding rights, vacation, wage increases, the list goes on. What do you think the dollar value of that might be? It isn't small. And then there are the people who would have been upgraded at Jazz sooner, had the base they wanted sooner, what so you think that is worth? Again, a fair bit of money.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but that assumes that all 300 pilots would have been hired by Air Canada, doesn't it? When the agreement was just for an interview. So, how is it determined who would have been or who would not have been hired?

[cdnavater]

And what exactly are you hoping to achieve through this “grievance” process?

Same as most grievances, money. The failure to honour the flow as stated on the contract meant nearly 300 pilots will have some 300 +people forever senior to them at Air Canada, impacting everything from bidding rights, vacation, wage increases, the list goes on. What do you think the dollar value of that might be? It isn't small. And then there are the people who would have been upgraded at Jazz sooner, had the base they wanted sooner, what so you think that is worth? Again, a fair bit of money.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but that assumes that all 300 pilots would have been hired by Air Canada, doesn't it? When the agreement was just for an interview. So, how is it determined who would have been or who would not have been hired?

Actually no, I can’t copy from the contract for some reason but it’s ingrained in it, section 3-14 spells it out, it’s 60% of new hires and a maximum turn down rate of 10%, reconciled annually.
The turn down rate of 10% is important, it means of the 300 positions that were not offered about 330 pilots would have to of interviewed, I’m sure that’s the reason the union specified the first 295 pilots hired will be the names listed on the grievance.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Same as most grievances, money. The failure to honour the flow as stated on the contract meant nearly 300 pilots will have some 300 +people forever senior to them at Air Canada, impacting everything from bidding rights, vacation, wage increases, the list goes on. What do you think the dollar value of that might be? It isn't small. And then there are the people who would have been upgraded at Jazz sooner, had the base they wanted sooner, what so you think that is worth? Again, a fair bit of money.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but that assumes that all 300 pilots would have been hired by Air Canada, doesn't it? When the agreement was just for an interview. So, how is it determined who would have been or who would not have been hired?

Actually no, I can’t copy from the contract for some reason but it’s ingrained in it, section 3-14 spells it out, it’s 60% of new hires and a maximum turn down rate of 10%, reconciled annually.
The turn down rate of 10% is important, it means of the 300 positions that were not offered about 330 pilots would have to of interviewed, I’m sure that’s the reason the union specified the first 295 pilots hired will be the names listed on the grievance.

Wait a second... The union has actually attached specific pilot names to this grievance? This gets better and better.

[cdnavater]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but that assumes that all 300 pilots would have been hired by Air Canada, doesn't it? When the agreement was just for an interview. So, how is it determined who would have been or who would not have been hired?

Actually no, I can’t copy from the contract for some reason but it’s ingrained in it, section 3-14 spells it out, it’s 60% of new hires and a maximum turn down rate of 10%, reconciled annually.
The turn down rate of 10% is important, it means of the 300 positions that were not offered about 330 pilots would have to of interviewed, I’m sure that’s the reason the union specified the first 295 pilots hired will be the names listed on the grievance.

Wait a second... The union has actually attached specific pilot names to this grievance? This gets better and better.

Not yet, the grievance is being prepared, the initial information is the first 295 in the door at AC would be eligible for being named. I disagree with this fundamentally, I believe it should be all Jazz pilots so as to not single out those pilots, who are essentially employed by AC, I’m not sure many will sign up for that situation.
They do say harm to all Jazz pilots but more harm was done to the first 295 as their seniority was significantly affected

[Inverted2]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but that assumes that all 300 pilots would have been hired by Air Canada, doesn't it? When the agreement was just for an interview. So, how is it determined who would have been or who would not have been hired?

Actually no, I can’t copy from the contract for some reason but it’s ingrained in it, section 3-14 spells it out, it’s 60% of new hires and a maximum turn down rate of 10%, reconciled annually.
The turn down rate of 10% is important, it means of the 300 positions that were not offered about 330 pilots would have to of interviewed, I’m sure that’s the reason the union specified the first 295 pilots hired will be the names listed on the grievance.

Wait a second... The union has actually attached specific pilot names to this grievance? This gets better and better.

I wouldn’t necessarily say names will be named. They don’t matter. They are just numbers in a process that is not being followed correctly.

[northtosouth]

Who controls the seniority list at AC? AC or ACPA? Pretty sure ACPA does and since they aren't signatories of the agreement any dream of getting pre-dated seniority number will be off the table since they can't harm their current members.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Who controls the seniority list at AC? AC or ACPA? Pretty sure ACPA does and since they aren't signatories of the agreement any dream of getting pre-dated seniority number will be off the table since they can't harm their current members.

This is sort of what I was getting at. There is zero chance that any of the affected at Jazz will have any sort of deferred seniority at AC, since the list is controlled by ACPA. What I suspect may come of this, is probably just a small cash settlement, and the ability for anyone at Jazz who was affected to re-apply.

There are still Jazz pilots in every AC new hire class, so I don't see how the grievance holds much merit. It's also quite possible that Jazz was the one who violated the agreement, if their hiring couldn't keep up with attrition they may well have rendered it null and void themselves regardless of what AC's plans were.

[truedude]

Who controls the seniority list at AC? AC or ACPA? Pretty sure ACPA does and since they aren't signatories of the agreement any dream of getting pre-dated seniority number will be off the table since they can't harm their current members.

This is sort of what I was getting at. There is zero chance that any of the affected at Jazz will have any sort of deferred seniority at AC, since the list is controlled by ACPA. What I suspect may come of this, is probably just a small cash settlement, and the ability for anyone at Jazz who was affected to re-apply.

There are still Jazz pilots in every AC new hire class, so I don't see how the grievance holds much merit. It's also quite possible that Jazz was the one who violated the agreement, if their hiring couldn't keep up with attrition they may well have rendered it null and void themselves regardless of what AC's plans were.

They won't get seniority, but the cash settlement might be quite high. It doesn't matter which party violated the agreement, only that it was violated, and that those pilots will forever have 300+ people ahead of them, which could have significant long term financial costs.

Even if Jazz was the one that violated it, it is still a contract violation and doesn't render anything null and void.

And no one needs to reapply, it wasn't that they were turned down, they were all offered later groudnschools, but much later than they should have been.

It is becoming clear you don't actually understand the situation.

And just playing Devils advocate, but if the grievance is successful, these pilots could then hire lawyer and then sue AC to have there rightful seniority addressed. It has happened in the past. There is president in law for the argument.

[cdnavater]

Who controls the seniority list at AC? AC or ACPA? Pretty sure ACPA does and since they aren't signatories of the agreement any dream of getting pre-dated seniority number will be off the table since they can't harm their current members.

This is sort of what I was getting at. There is zero chance that any of the affected at Jazz will have any sort of deferred seniority at AC, since the list is controlled by ACPA. What I suspect may come of this, is probably just a small cash settlement, and the ability for anyone at Jazz who was affected to re-apply.

There are still Jazz pilots in every AC new hire class, so I don't see how the grievance holds much merit. It's also quite possible that Jazz was the one who violated the agreement, if their hiring couldn't keep up with attrition they may well have rendered it null and void themselves regardless of what AC's plans were.

It’s not really about a seniority number, it’s about harm to their future because as we know, seniority dictates everything!
Can that be quantified, absolutely to a certain extent, it may take time but you guys are missing the point, the point is the contract required 60% or about 2/3 new hire spots go to Jazz pilots on an annual basis, reconciled at the end of the year.
So, in simple terms, last year, 2022 was supposed to have 295 Jazz pilots hired that weren’t, if the arbitrator simply says to make this right, anyone hired after Jan 1 2023, should be behind them so anything they get so do those harmed. Maybe one for one Captain, one upgrades, one who could’ve gets paid as though they did. Whatever that looks like, doesn’t matter, whoever is as fault doesn’t matter, it will either be decided by mutual agreement or an arbitrator, that is the point!
Another thing that will be looked at is harm to those that were saddled with the contract that contained the flow, what would we have if not for the flow, that is much harder to determine but again that will be decided by the process.

[Rowdy]

This financially harms everyone at Jazz hired in the last 8 years. The main solution is financial repercussions for AC and CHR. Paid directly to the pilot group.

All that movement that was promised to AC changes everyones career earnings significantly. Well ok, maybe not a 30yr veteran who plans to retire in 6 months, but everyone who was told in interviews and in CRm etc that you'll be upgraded quickly. You'll get a better schedule. You'll get that base transfer etc has been sitting. Same as those who wanted to go to AC. Its a hit. An extra year and 200 numbers is HUGE at the end of your career.

Don't make us squabble with each other over seniority. Plain and simply, fix it going forward and pay up for your screw up!

[Nick678]

If you’re hired at AC in 2023 and you think jazz folks who

1. Were promised to be there in 2022
2. flew AC pax’s for the last 4+ years
3. held back to keep flying AC pax’s
4. Paid like shit the entire time

Deserve BOLT you have to give your head a shake,

[Loon-A-Tic]

So Canada Jetlines is pulling back on their domestic schedule, apparently it will resume in the Fall; right, we've heard that song before in Canada !! Flair is in a bit of a mess so I'd say most, if not all of the "pilot shortage" leverage is about to evaporate. Jazz will have no problem staffing their eventual 80 fin fleet and could very well do so at the current pay structure. The union might be able to squeeze out some small gains at the expense of the flow program, maybe 10% but in the end the Chorus investors will be tickled pink.

[kiaszceski]

So Canada Jetlines is pulling back on their domestic schedule, apparently it will resume in the Fall; right, we've heard that song before in Canada !! Flair is in a bit of a mess so I'd say most, if not all of the "pilot shortage" leverage is about to evaporate. Jazz will have no problem staffing their eventual 80 fin fleet and could very well do so at the current pay structure. The union might be able to squeeze out some small gains at the expense of the flow program, maybe 10% but in the end the Chorus investors will be tickled pink.

Who will vote for a 10% increase? Jetlines is going under, but that's not like they were a threat to AC or Jazz.

[PostmasterGeneral]

If you’re hired at AC in 2023 and you think jazz folks who

1. Were promised to be there in 2022
2. flew AC pax’s for the last 4+ years
3. held back to keep flying AC pax’s
4. Paid like shit the entire time

Deserve BOLT you have to give your head a shake,

It’s not about what anyone “deserves”. Check the entitlement at the door. It’s simply not possible to circumvent seniority like that at AC. The company does not own the seniority list, ACPA does. Not saying it’s right or wrong either way what was promised to some Jazz guys, but that’s the way it is.

The Jazz pilots who feel wronged are going to need to prove that they came to Jazz for the express purpose that they were promised a job at AC. Anyone hired before the flow agreement was in place, really doesn’t have a leg to stand on, and that is the company’s stance on the subject, as unfortunate as it may be.

[link821]

If you’re hired at AC in 2023 and you think jazz folks who

1. Were promised to be there in 2022
2. flew AC pax’s for the last 4+ years
3. held back to keep flying AC pax’s
4. Paid like shit the entire time

Deserve BOLT you have to give your head a shake,

It’s not about what anyone “deserves”. Check the entitlement at the door. It’s simply not possible to circumvent seniority like that at AC. The company does not own the seniority list, ACPA does. Not saying it’s right or wrong either way what was promised to some Jazz guys, but that’s the way it is.

The Jazz pilots who feel wronged are going to need to prove that they came to Jazz for the express purpose that they were promised a job at AC. Anyone hired before the flow agreement was in place, really doesn’t have a leg to stand on, and that is the company’s stance on the subject, as unfortunate as it may be.

If it’s not about doing what’s deserved, it’s about doing what’s right. A contract was agreed to by two parties and was used as means to recruit candidates. It needs to be renegotiated and some form of reparations imposed for those whose careers are being negatively affected.

[cdnavater]

If you’re hired at AC in 2023 and you think jazz folks who

1. Were promised to be there in 2022
2. flew AC pax’s for the last 4+ years
3. held back to keep flying AC pax’s
4. Paid like shit the entire time

Deserve BOLT you have to give your head a shake,

It’s not about what anyone “deserves”. Check the entitlement at the door. It’s simply not possible to circumvent seniority like that at AC. The company does not own the seniority list, ACPA does. Not saying it’s right or wrong either way what was promised to some Jazz guys, but that’s the way it is.

The Jazz pilots who feel wronged are going to need to prove that they came to Jazz for the express purpose that they were promised a job at AC. Anyone hired before the flow agreement was in place, really doesn’t have a leg to stand on, and that is the company’s stance on the subject, as unfortunate as it may be.

There has been a flow since 2015, it has been modified a few times but never gone, so any pilot hired after 2015 assumed they had a shot at AC.
The flow is also one of the reasons the wages have been suppressed, therefore all Jazz pilots have been harmed in some manner.
But I agree, there will be no solution that modifies the seniority list at AC, if any Jazz pilot thinks they are getting some type of seniority out of this they will be sadly disappointed, it will be monetary, how much remains to be determined.

[link821]

If I’m not mistaken, they’ve done a pay for YOS credit in the past. Something like this seems like somewhere to start to me. Doesn’t hurt any AC pilots currently on the the list and it acknowledges time spent flying at jazz

[Mrs. Andry]

If you’re hired at AC in 2023 and you think jazz folks who

1. Were promised to be there in 2022
2. flew AC pax’s for the last 4+ years
3. held back to keep flying AC pax’s
4. Paid like shit the entire time

Deserve BOLT you have to give your head a shake,

Wow, thank you for your service!! Your sacrifice is so inspiring. The people of Timmins and Castlegar are forever in your debt. Would DEC be enough to make up for your years in the trenches?

[rudder]

If you’re hired at AC in 2023 and you think jazz folks who

1. Were promised to be there in 2022
2. flew AC pax’s for the last 4+ years
3. held back to keep flying AC pax’s
4. Paid like shit the entire time

Deserve BOLT you have to give your head a shake,

There is no seniority remedy that applies to AC. Seniority is governed by the ACPA CBA. DOH is PIT course date, unless proactively modified by consent between ACPA and AC. An arbitrator ruling on an alleged Jazz CBA violation cannot apply any remedy upon a third party. CHR may, however, have cause for action under the terms of the CPA. That would only apply if flow was codified in the CPA and it was AC that was in breach of its obligations under the CPA, not CHR.

Lots of Jazz pilots and pilots considering Jazz as a potential employer are making decisions about where they want to work and best path to AC (if applicable). Best decisions are based on facts and not wishful thinking or false promises.

Latest AC bid shows 622 more pilots required.

[Outlaw58]

If you’re hired at AC in 2023 and you think jazz folks who

1. Were promised to be there in 2022
2. flew AC pax’s for the last 4+ years
3. held back to keep flying AC pax’s
4. Paid like shit the entire time

Deserve BOLT you have to give your head a shake,

There is no seniority remedy that applies to AC. Seniority is governed by the ACPA CBA. DOH is PIT course date, unless proactively modified by consent between ACPA and AC. An arbitrator ruling on an alleged Jazz CBA violation cannot apply any remedy upon a third party. CHR may, however, have cause for action under the terms of the CPA. That would only apply if flow was codified in the CPA and it was AC that was in breach of its obligations under the CPA, not CHR.

Lots of Jazz pilots and pilots considering Jazz as a potential employer are making decisions about where they want to work and best path to AC (if applicable). Best decisions are based on facts and not wishful thinking or false promises.

Latest AC bid shows 622 more pilots required.

All of these disagreements and discussions about seniority and how it should be applied never address the elephant in the room which is that it is antiquated.

That system made a lot of sense when it was put in place and for many years after when pilots could not even dream of being hired in a 705 operation before accumulating 6000 or 7000TT. At that point everyone pretty much had the same qualifications, background and experience and really the DOH was the ONLY significant measure of differentiation between pilots. Not true today.

Coming from a 35 year military career, and joining the airlines at 50, BOTL, I was being told in no uncertain terms by my 25-yr old CA that I should STFU, keep my seniority ideas to myself and enjoy my shit sandwich. No one forced me to make the switch, so I did just that.

Doesn't change the fact that the industry and pilot unity would greatly benefit from a revamp of the system that recognizes time in the industry vs time at a particular company.

Ok....my bullet vest is on....fire away

58

[Loon-A-Tic]

So Canada Jetlines is pulling back on their domestic schedule, apparently it will resume in the Fall; right, we've heard that song before in Canada !! Flair is in a bit of a mess so I'd say most, if not all of the "pilot shortage" leverage is about to evaporate. Jazz will have no problem staffing their eventual 80 fin fleet and could very well do so at the current pay structure. The union might be able to squeeze out some small gains at the expense of the flow program, maybe 10% but in the end the Chorus investors will be tickled pink.

Who will vote for a 10% increase? Jetlines is going under, but that's not like they were a threat to AC or Jazz.

Absolutely no one but it might not even get to a vote remember the current CA has a few years to run yet before its up for "formal" negations. My point wasn't about money but the loss of leverage around the "pilot shortage". If a couple of the current players, Canada Jetlines, Flair or another ceases operations that will effectively eliminate any leverage ergo negations become unnecessary in the eyes of Chorus.

[rudder]

Absolutely no one but it might not even get to a vote remember the current CA has a few years to run yet before its up for "formal" negations. My point wasn't about money but the loss of leverage around the "pilot shortage". If a couple of the current players, Canada Jetlines, Flair or another ceases operations that will effectively eliminate any leverage ergo negations become unnecessary in the eyes of Chorus.

That is not a plan.

Absent minimum 40% increase in the first years and 15% at the top end, Jazz will be hard pressed even to maintain a pilot population of 1000.

The bottom 40% of the Jazz list want AC. As the seniors retire, it will be at least the bottom 50% of the list. AC needs 1674 more pilots to reach its stated goal of 6000 pilots by 2025. Pilots will place themselves where they need to in order to have the best opportunity to make it to AC in the shortest period of time. And the pilots that are not aiming for AC will choose the carrier with the best WAWCON.

Jazz needs to accept the realities of 2023. No more denial. Even if a couple of players fail, new entrants will pop up. It is time to recalibrate or acknowledge that the mission exceeds the resources. Remaining stuck in a 2019 paradigm won’t alleviate the obvious issues.

Refusing to pay industry standard OR BETTER in order to ensure adequate experienced applicants and retention will have a predictable result. And it is happening as we speak.

[schnitzel2k3]

If you’re hired at AC in 2023 and you think jazz folks who

1. Were promised to be there in 2022
2. flew AC pax’s for the last 4+ years
3. held back to keep flying AC pax’s
4. Paid like shit the entire time

Deserve BOLT you have to give your head a shake,

I say these comments in the most neutral way possible.

1. Your union reps made a deal with the devil on your behalf.

2. You helped support an environment that expanded Air Canada's margins so that AC could capture the flying outside of their mainline pilot group, at below market rates. Essentially you flew for years supporting the degredation of pilot pay and conditions in Canada in your personal and selfish quest to get to AC as fast as possible. Don't expect a pat on the back from anyone.

3. You likely did not make the grade to flow to AC because of X,Y,&Z, and the many - MANY colleagues like you who also applied and chose to support Jazz's WAWCON. All the while you could've possibly flown for an operator that had better pay and working conditions - and likely ended up at AC faster.

4. You signed the contract when you were hired (which was a shame), or you agreed to move there when Sky Regional/GGN was absorbed, again, it was your choice to stay and support those conditions.

I refer you back to point 1 and 2 for emphasis.

BOTL is unfortunately all you'll get going forward. I know that, not because I have a vote on it, but because there is no way the people I know at Air Canada will let anything different happen.

The reality is Jazz pilots are owed NOTHING. Every pilot at Jazz made their bed when they signed their contract.

Don't like it? Everyone's hiring, take your pick and make a move. Best thing you can do to send a message to Jazz is walk - AC doesn't give a rats a** if you leave Jazz. But if you're there supporting it, and they don't care to have you move up to mainline, AND you continue to stay...it's no skin off their (AC's) back. You're helping to create larger margins for them by supporting a company that ultimately cheapens the profession.