Negotiations

[YULFacebook]

.

[Loon-A-Tic]

The flow program was never a promise, guarantee or right, just an opportunity that a given percentage would have access too as an employee of Jazz. When a Jazz pilot migrated to AC seniority was determined by lottery during the PIT course. I'm aware of a pilot who was interviewed, hired but due to a delay in the processing of the medical; no medical issues per say, missed numerous PIT courses. No recognition of "time served", no slotting into the seniority list, just as awarded once finally in PIT.

[cdnavater]

The flow program was never a promise, guarantee or right, just an opportunity that a given percentage would have access too as an employee of Jazz. When a Jazz pilot migrated to AC seniority was determined by lottery during the PIT course. I'm aware of a pilot who was interviewed, hired but due to a delay in the processing of the medical; no medical issues per say, missed numerous PIT courses. No recognition of "time served", no slotting into the seniority list, just as awarded once finally in PIT.

On an individual basis, no it was not a guarantee, promise or right however as a group, 60% of new hires with a MAXIMUM 10% turndown rate is as guaranteed as you can get. I’d love those odds for the lottery!

[PostmasterGeneral]

The flow program was never a promise, guarantee or right, just an opportunity that a given percentage would have access too as an employee of Jazz. When a Jazz pilot migrated to AC seniority was determined by lottery during the PIT course. I'm aware of a pilot who was interviewed, hired but due to a delay in the processing of the medical; no medical issues per say, missed numerous PIT courses. No recognition of "time served", no slotting into the seniority list, just as awarded once finally in PIT.

On an individual basis, no it was not a guarantee, promise or right however as a group, 60% of new hires with a MAXIMUM 10% turndown rate is as guaranteed as you can get. I’d love those odds for the lottery!

I still don't think Jazz is going to offer any sort of compensation. What is the goal with this grievance anyways? Just to get a bit of a cash settlement in lieu of an interview at AC? Why not just go somewhere else, and then to AC if that's the main goal?

[rudder]

The flow program was never a promise, guarantee or right, just an opportunity that a given percentage would have access too as an employee of Jazz. When a Jazz pilot migrated to AC seniority was determined by lottery during the PIT course. I'm aware of a pilot who was interviewed, hired but due to a delay in the processing of the medical; no medical issues per say, missed numerous PIT courses. No recognition of "time served", no slotting into the seniority list, just as awarded once finally in PIT.

On an individual basis, no it was not a guarantee, promise or right however as a group, 60% of new hires with a MAXIMUM 10% turndown rate is as guaranteed as you can get. I’d love those odds for the lottery!

I still don't think Jazz is going to offer any sort of compensation. What is the goal with this grievance anyways? Just to get a bit of a cash settlement in lieu of an interview at AC? Why not just go somewhere else, and then to AC if that's the main goal?

It isn’t about a seniority number. It is about context.

The JAZ MEC will argue that it agreed to dramatically reduced pay levels for new pilots (FO/CA year 1-5 pay scales) in exchange for the flow provision. Therefore, if the flow provision is not honoured TO THE LETTER then there is an argument to be made that the CBA quid pro quo was not reciprocated and therefore financial damages are owed.

The grievance - if filed - does not work in isolation. It will be part of a strategy to put pressure on Jazz to voluntarily improve pay (no third party consent required) and possibly come up with a more reliable and predictable flow agreement (possible third or fourth party consent required).

Smart people play chess. Others play checkers.

[Malfunction]

From Jazz...
"Jazz is very focused on the North American pilot shortage and is successfully attracting new pilots to the point that all classes are full, and we don’t see that changing over the next couple of years.

We count on Randolph deGooyer and his team of dedicated professionals at Jazz to support the regional backbone of Air Canada’s network in North America to ensure this relationship remains strong and mutually beneficial and, equally, the bedrock of Chorus’ guaranteed free cash flow. "

We are not filling ground schools.. funny to see how business is just like politics. Tell the people what they want to hear.

[Turboprops]

We are not filling ground schools.. funny to see how business is just like politics. Tell the people what they want to hear.

They’re “technically” not wrong though. They’ve been hiring 18-20 every 3 weeks. You can have one gs every 6 month and say you have a full gs and that wouldn’t be a lie.
The problem is the experience level of candidates being hired and the huge retention problem which I guess they just won’t mention. Also the inability to run more ground schools, the list goes on

[cdnavater]

The flow program was never a promise, guarantee or right, just an opportunity that a given percentage would have access too as an employee of Jazz. When a Jazz pilot migrated to AC seniority was determined by lottery during the PIT course. I'm aware of a pilot who was interviewed, hired but due to a delay in the processing of the medical; no medical issues per say, missed numerous PIT courses. No recognition of "time served", no slotting into the seniority list, just as awarded once finally in PIT.

On an individual basis, no it was not a guarantee, promise or right however as a group, 60% of new hires with a MAXIMUM 10% turndown rate is as guaranteed as you can get. I’d love those odds for the lottery!

I still don't think Jazz is going to offer any sort of compensation. What is the goal with this grievance anyways? Just to get a bit of a cash settlement in lieu of an interview at AC? Why not just go somewhere else, and then to AC if that's the main goal?

Correct me if I’m wrong but did you not go over on pml 1.0 signed in 2015 with some type of Jazz seniority number ahead of OTS for two years?
If that’s you, imagine had we agreed to that pml with a reserved number but AC didn’t honour it, what would you have done, sucked it up and moved on?
You seem to be missing the BIG PICTURE, it’s a violation of the CONTRACT! It’s a pretty big one, a blatant one, we have to grieve it otherwise what’s the point of the contract, seriously what’s the point!
Now, as for what people are hoping to get, I imagine you if you asked 20 different Jazz pilots, you would get 15 different answers but the union has stated it prefers a negotiated settlement over an arbitration, so we shall see what that ends up looking like sometime down the road.

[Loon-A-Tic]

On an individual basis, no it was not a guarantee, promise or right however as a group, 60% of new hires with a MAXIMUM 10% turndown rate is as guaranteed as you can get. I’d love those odds for the lottery!

I still don't think Jazz is going to offer any sort of compensation. What is the goal with this grievance anyways? Just to get a bit of a cash settlement in lieu of an interview at AC? Why not just go somewhere else, and then to AC if that's the main goal?

Correct me if I’m wrong but did you not go over on pml 1.0 signed in 2015 with some type of Jazz seniority number ahead of OTS for two years?
If that’s you, imagine had we agreed to that pml with a reserved number but AC didn’t honour it, what would you have done, sucked it up and moved on?
You seem to be missing the BIG PICTURE, it’s a violation of the CONTRACT! It’s a pretty big one, a blatant one, we have to grieve it otherwise what’s the point of the contract, seriously what’s the point!
Now, as for what people are hoping to get, I imagine you if you asked 20 different Jazz pilots, you would get 15 different answers but the union has stated it prefers a negotiated settlement over an arbitration, so we shall see what that ends up looking like sometime down the road.

I'm not sure who you are quote here but if it's me I'm definitely NOT at AC, or even with Jazz for that matter.

[cdnavater]

I still don't think Jazz is going to offer any sort of compensation. What is the goal with this grievance anyways? Just to get a bit of a cash settlement in lieu of an interview at AC? Why not just go somewhere else, and then to AC if that's the main goal?

Correct me if I’m wrong but did you not go over on pml 1.0 signed in 2015 with some type of Jazz seniority number ahead of OTS for two years?
If that’s you, imagine had we agreed to that pml with a reserved number but AC didn’t honour it, what would you have done, sucked it up and moved on?
You seem to be missing the BIG PICTURE, it’s a violation of the CONTRACT! It’s a pretty big one, a blatant one, we have to grieve it otherwise what’s the point of the contract, seriously what’s the point!
Now, as for what people are hoping to get, I imagine you if you asked 20 different Jazz pilots, you would get 15 different answers but the union has stated it prefers a negotiated settlement over an arbitration, so we shall see what that ends up looking like sometime down the road.

I'm not sure who you are quote here but if it's me I'm definitely NOT at AC, or even with Jazz for that matter.

I was quoting Postmaster, didn’t realize you were in that conversation, Postmaster, commented on my post to you I guess

[canadian_aviator_4]

On an individual basis, no it was not a guarantee, promise or right however as a group, 60% of new hires with a MAXIMUM 10% turndown rate is as guaranteed as you can get. I’d love those odds for the lottery!

I still don't think Jazz is going to offer any sort of compensation. What is the goal with this grievance anyways? Just to get a bit of a cash settlement in lieu of an interview at AC? Why not just go somewhere else, and then to AC if that's the main goal?

Correct me if I’m wrong but did you not go over on pml 1.0 signed in 2015 with some type of Jazz seniority number ahead of OTS for two years?
If that’s you, imagine had we agreed to that pml with a reserved number but AC didn’t honour it, what would you have done, sucked it up and moved on?
You seem to be missing the BIG PICTURE, it’s a violation of the CONTRACT! It’s a pretty big one, a blatant one, we have to grieve it otherwise what’s the point of the contract, seriously what’s the point!
Now, as for what people are hoping to get, I imagine you if you asked 20 different Jazz pilots, you would get 15 different answers but the union has stated it prefers a negotiated settlement over an arbitration, so we shall see what that ends up looking like sometime down the road.

Well said! Couldn’t agree more.

[PostmasterGeneral]

On an individual basis, no it was not a guarantee, promise or right however as a group, 60% of new hires with a MAXIMUM 10% turndown rate is as guaranteed as you can get. I’d love those odds for the lottery!

I still don't think Jazz is going to offer any sort of compensation. What is the goal with this grievance anyways? Just to get a bit of a cash settlement in lieu of an interview at AC? Why not just go somewhere else, and then to AC if that's the main goal?

Correct me if I’m wrong but did you not go over on pml 1.0 signed in 2015 with some type of Jazz seniority number ahead of OTS for two years?
If that’s you, imagine had we agreed to that pml with a reserved number but AC didn’t honour it, what would you have done, sucked it up and moved on?
You seem to be missing the BIG PICTURE, it’s a violation of the CONTRACT! It’s a pretty big one, a blatant one, we have to grieve it otherwise what’s the point of the contract, seriously what’s the point!
Now, as for what people are hoping to get, I imagine you if you asked 20 different Jazz pilots, you would get 15 different answers but the union has stated it prefers a negotiated settlement over an arbitration, so we shall see what that ends up looking like sometime down the road.

No I was never offered the opportunity to go to AC on the PML, I didn’t even get to apply through a portal.

The only case I know of “deferred seniority” from Jazz was the first PML. This situation is a little different, in that the only stipulation was that 60% of ACs hires would come from Jazz. It’s not deferred seniority like the PML where pilots were HIRED and got to stay. In this instance, pilots weren’t even given interviews.

[cdnavater]

I still don't think Jazz is going to offer any sort of compensation. What is the goal with this grievance anyways? Just to get a bit of a cash settlement in lieu of an interview at AC? Why not just go somewhere else, and then to AC if that's the main goal?

Correct me if I’m wrong but did you not go over on pml 1.0 signed in 2015 with some type of Jazz seniority number ahead of OTS for two years?
If that’s you, imagine had we agreed to that pml with a reserved number but AC didn’t honour it, what would you have done, sucked it up and moved on?
You seem to be missing the BIG PICTURE, it’s a violation of the CONTRACT! It’s a pretty big one, a blatant one, we have to grieve it otherwise what’s the point of the contract, seriously what’s the point!
Now, as for what people are hoping to get, I imagine you if you asked 20 different Jazz pilots, you would get 15 different answers but the union has stated it prefers a negotiated settlement over an arbitration, so we shall see what that ends up looking like sometime down the road.

No I was never offered the opportunity to go to AC on the PML, I didn’t even get to apply through a portal.

The only case I know of “deferred seniority” from Jazz was the first PML. This situation is a little different, in that the only stipulation was that 60% of ACs hires would come from Jazz. It’s not deferred seniority like the PML where pilots were HIRED and got to stay. In this instance, pilots weren’t even given interviews.

Ok, regardless you are saying since they aren’t honouring the contract they should just go elsewhere, as it may be a faster path to AC which may be true.
You’re ok with the company just blatantly violating a big clause, the very clause that kept the pay low, this is ok with you?

[Nick678]

ACPA maintains the seniority list but if AC tells them to jump - they’ll ask how high? Like a high-school student body who thinks they have real power.

Jazz pilots will probably get the seniority that they were contractually promised, because it’s the cheapest solution. The cheapest solution is usually the easiest and those who got hired from competing airlines should still be happy where there are.

We should all be friends in this

[cdnavater]

ACPA maintains the seniority list but if AC tells them to jump - they’ll ask how high? Like a high-school student body who thinks they have real power.

Jazz pilots will probably get the seniority that they were contractually promised, because it’s the cheapest solution. The cheapest solution is usually the easiest and those who got hired from competing airlines should still be happy where there are.

We should all be friends in this

Nick,
While I can empathize with your situation, ACPA today is not the ACPA of even last year, they own the seniority list and would not give you or any other Jazz pilot a number without something big in return, an arbitrator will eventually decide, absent a negotiated settlement, what damage was done and what you are entitled to but they could not assign you a number on ACPAs list, just like without the MECs consent GGN or SR pilots would have been BOTL at Jazz.

[truedude]

ACPA maintains the seniority list but if AC tells them to jump - they’ll ask how high? Like a high-school student body who thinks they have real power.

Jazz pilots will probably get the seniority that they were contractually promised, because it’s the cheapest solution. The cheapest solution is usually the easiest and those who got hired from competing airlines should still be happy where there are.

We should all be friends in this

Nick,
While I can empathize with your situation, ACPA today is not the ACPA of even last year, they own the seniority list and would not give you or any other Jazz pilot a number without something big in return, an arbitrator will eventually decide, absent a negotiated settlement, what damage was done and what you are entitled to but they could not assign you a number on ACPAs list, just like without the MECs consent GGN or SR pilots would have been BOTL at Jazz.

You are right, a random arbitrator can't. But the CIRB can.

[Fanblade]

ACPA maintains the seniority list but if AC tells them to jump - they’ll ask how high? Like a high-school student body who thinks they have real power.

Jazz pilots will probably get the seniority that they were contractually promised, because it’s the cheapest solution. The cheapest solution is usually the easiest and those who got hired from competing airlines should still be happy where there are.

We should all be friends in this

Nick,
While I can empathize with your situation, ACPA today is not the ACPA of even last year, they own the seniority list and would not give you or any other Jazz pilot a number without something big in return, an arbitrator will eventually decide, absent a negotiated settlement, what damage was done and what you are entitled to but they could not assign you a number on ACPAs list, just like without the MECs consent GGN or SR pilots would have been BOTL at Jazz.

You are right, a random arbitrator can't. But the CIRB can.

Your statement sounds like 1995 all over again. Been there done that. It is in your best interest to trade your leverage for an acceptable negotiated settlement. Arbitrators and the CIRB are long shot gambles that take years and years. If you lose by the time you get a final answer a decade of your career will have passed.

There are only two types of pilots. Those that have had the industry take a knee to their groin and those that will.

I don’t say this to be unsympathetic. I am. I’ve had unfair situations happen as well. But from experience those arbitrators and CIRB don’t really give a crap. They are just interested in a settlement. They don’t really care about justice.

[truedude]

Nick,
While I can empathize with your situation, ACPA today is not the ACPA of even last year, they own the seniority list and would not give you or any other Jazz pilot a number without something big in return, an arbitrator will eventually decide, absent a negotiated settlement, what damage was done and what you are entitled to but they could not assign you a number on ACPAs list, just like without the MECs consent GGN or SR pilots would have been BOTL at Jazz.

You are right, a random arbitrator can't. But the CIRB can.

Your statement sounds like 1995 all over again. Been there done that. It is in your best interest to trade your leverage for an acceptable negotiated settlement. Arbitrators and the CIRB are long shot gambles that take years and years. If you lose by the time you get a final answer a decade of your career will have passed.

Oh 100% agree. Just saying technically it can happen.

All Canadian airlines seem to be playing the same game of stupid. If they just accepted that things have changed and act accordingly, things would be a lot simpler. But it seems an enormous amount of energy is being spent on trying to convince us all that there isn't a problem. Which of course leaves our groups with little alternative but to pursue these things through traditional routes.

I hope they smarten up and pay accordingly. Westjet will have an interesting May long weekend I suspect. I wonder how many days the airline needs to be shutdown before it would have been cheaper just to pay?

Based on the things management is saying these days, I am not hopeful things will change anytime soon, until they are faced with a situation in which they can't keep the operation functional any longer.

We have management telling us that the pilot shortage in the U.S. is over... So that is were things are at this end.

[rudder]

You are right, a random arbitrator can't. But the CIRB can.

If I may ask - what does the CIRB have to do with it?

The CIRB has jurisdiction over matters contained in the Canada Labour Code. That is it. Unless there is a DFR issue, a common employer petition (sustained), or an employer refusal to implement a properly ordered judgement (within arbitration jurisdiction) that flowed from an arbitration related to the terms of a CBA, then the CIRB has no jurisdiction.

Time to learn the lessons of the past. The CIRB is not the answer, nor is civil litigation. Both are time consuming, expensive, and far from a sure thing.

The greatest leverage any pilot group has right now is the lack of pilot supply. Retain good counsel/representation. Think strategically. Find allies. Then act.

[truedude]

You are right, a random arbitrator can't. But the CIRB can.

If I may ask - what does the CIRB have to do with it?

The CIRB has jurisdiction over matters contained in the Canada Labour Code. That is it. Unless there is a DFR issue, a common employer petition (sustained), or an employer refusal to implement a properly ordered judgement (within arbitration jurisdiction) that flowed from an arbitration related to the terms of a CBA, then the CIRB has no jurisdiction.

Time to learn the lessons of the past. The CIRB is not the answer, nor is civil litigation. Both are time consuming, expensive, and far from a sure thing.

The greatest leverage any pilot group has right now is the lack of pilot supply. Retain good counsel/representation. Think strategically. Find allies. Then act.

We keep doing what we are doing. Making them choke on the contract they wanted until they are prepared to pay. They need to understand that they will be paying eventually, and the only thing they have control over is how small and how much pain they want to endure until that happens. And I can wait far longer than they can.

And I know the union considered CIRB for this particular contract violation. But they chose the grievance avenue instead.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Correct me if I’m wrong but did you not go over on pml 1.0 signed in 2015 with some type of Jazz seniority number ahead of OTS for two years?
If that’s you, imagine had we agreed to that pml with a reserved number but AC didn’t honour it, what would you have done, sucked it up and moved on?
You seem to be missing the BIG PICTURE, it’s a violation of the CONTRACT! It’s a pretty big one, a blatant one, we have to grieve it otherwise what’s the point of the contract, seriously what’s the point!
Now, as for what people are hoping to get, I imagine you if you asked 20 different Jazz pilots, you would get 15 different answers but the union has stated it prefers a negotiated settlement over an arbitration, so we shall see what that ends up looking like sometime down the road.

No I was never offered the opportunity to go to AC on the PML, I didn’t even get to apply through a portal.

The only case I know of “deferred seniority” from Jazz was the first PML. This situation is a little different, in that the only stipulation was that 60% of ACs hires would come from Jazz. It’s not deferred seniority like the PML where pilots were HIRED and got to stay. In this instance, pilots weren’t even given interviews.

Ok, regardless you are saying since they aren’t honouring the contract they should just go elsewhere, as it may be a faster path to AC which may be true.
You’re ok with the company just blatantly violating a big clause, the very clause that kept the pay low, this is ok with you?

Yes, I am saying that, because it’s far too big of a gamble for those still at Jazz who want to go to AC, to sit there for another 24 months and “hope” that there is some sort of resolution in that timeframe. Even then, what if it’s just a cash payout? So you get a chunk of money, it will still be a fraction of what you’d have earned likely had you gone to AC (speaking in the Royal “you”, not you specifically) and you’re still at Jazz, with now 800 more pilots in front of you on the seniority list at AC. Grievances like this can take tens of months, even years to resolve.

Not saying it’s right what Jazz did to the pilots, but at some point, pilots need to accept responsibility for their careers, and make moves. If AC is the end goal, cut your losses, and go somewhere that will get you in the door there as soon as you can.

Yes, the company did you wrong. It sucks. Agreements were written, promises were broken, WE GET IT. You’ve made your point. But whining about it, and kicking and screaming isn’t going to right the main harm done to the affected pilots, which was their career progression. Take that into your own hands, and vote with your feet. Walk away, go somewhere that will get you where you want to be. The pay sucks, go somewhere that pays better. A mass exodus would change things pretty quick.

To your point specifically, the company violated a clause. So what? What are you going to do about it? Again, not saying it’s right, but really sit back and think if getting some sort of one time payout is worth it, to hinder your own career, just to be able to say “I told you so” to Jazz.

[rudder]

Vote with your feet. It sends the clearest message.

I am shocked at some of the demographic that are resigning right now. Time remaining to stem the tide is fast running out. Porter’s E2 hiring is decimating the E-jet rosters at Jazz. And many other destinations are being chosen by current Jazz pilots.

Decision makers need to start making decisions. The test of leadership is managing adversity, not managing the good times.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Vote with your feet. It sends the clearest message.

I am shocked at some of the demographic that are resigning right now. Time remaining to stem the tide is fast running out. Porter’s E2 hiring is decimating the E-jet rosters at Jazz. And many other destinations are being chosen by current Jazz pilots.

Decision makers need to start making decisions. The test of leadership is managing adversity, not managing the good times.

Yup. I believe 4 jazz guys off the E1 in last porter’s GS.

The inability of the management to respond to this is most impressive.

[Fanblade]

Vote with your feet. It sends the clearest message.

I am shocked at some of the demographic that are resigning right now. Time remaining to stem the tide is fast running out. Porter’s E2 hiring is decimating the E-jet rosters at Jazz. And many other destinations are being chosen by current Jazz pilots.

Decision makers need to start making decisions. The test of leadership is managing adversity, not managing the good times.

We can’t make management listen. We can only make them wish they had.

Stay the course. Management will play “this is no big deal” until the very moment before they pivot. They have a line somewhere, we just don’t know exactly where it is.

As pilots we don’t like to inflict or see harm on our employer. Unfortunately harm is all the employer responds to.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Vote with your feet. It sends the clearest message.

I am shocked at some of the demographic that are resigning right now. Time remaining to stem the tide is fast running out. Porter’s E2 hiring is decimating the E-jet rosters at Jazz. And many other destinations are being chosen by current Jazz pilots.

Decision makers need to start making decisions. The test of leadership is managing adversity, not managing the good times.

We can’t make management listen. We can only make them wish they had.

Stay the course. Management will play “this is no big deal” until the very moment before they pivot. They have a line somewhere, we just don’t know exactly where it is.

As pilots we don’t like to inflict or see harm on our employer. Unfortunately harm is all the employer responds to.

The thing is….for many pilots…. Trying to find the “line” can be detrimental to their careers in term of wasted time, seniority, pay, etc.

While I do agree with staying the course…mostly. @rudder is not wrong that walking out in droves might accelerate this. Wages going up across the country is only helpful to everyone else.

I got out from jazz. Best thing I ever did