Circling Procedures

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photofly
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Re: Circling Procedures

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 4:13 pm
photofly wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:38 pm
Fly approach, descend. If, before minimums, you get visual reference then continue the descent as low as you like at your choice
That's incorrect. You're supposed to stay at the MDA until landing is assured.
You'll likely fail a PPC ride if you fly your downwind leg level at 500 AGL for example if MDA is 700 AGL.
I guess it depends on how low you like it ... but I think the words "normal landing is assured" need careful interpretation, according to circumstance.

In your example, if you break out exactly at 700', are you going to fly your downwind with your head bumping the clouds and your feet in clear air? Now look at the two plates in the OP: are you going to fly your downwind at 2000 agl or 2700 agl respectively, or something more appropriate to the airplane you're in?
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digits_
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Re: Circling Procedures

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:01 pm
digits_ wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 4:13 pm
photofly wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:38 pm
Fly approach, descend. If, before minimums, you get visual reference then continue the descent as low as you like at your choice
That's incorrect. You're supposed to stay at the MDA until landing is assured.
You'll likely fail a PPC ride if you fly your downwind leg level at 500 AGL for example if MDA is 700 AGL.
I guess it depends on how low you like it ... but I think the words "normal landing is assured" need careful interpretation, according to circumstance.

In your example, if you break out exactly at 700', are you going to fly your downwind with your head bumping the clouds and your feet in clear air? Now look at the two plates in the OP: are you going to fly your downwind at 2000 agl or 2700 agl respectively, or something more appropriate to the airplane you're in?
Oh I agree. It's absolutely bonkers. But on PPC rides they want you at 700 agl with a simulated cloud deck at 720. It's asinine. In real life in that situation you're watching the runway like a hawk. On a PPC ride you don't care about the runway, you're just so focused on not going above 720 or below 700. It's ridiculous. Completely negative training (because you traing for the PPC).

This happened on 3 separate training/rides, at 2 different organisations. It's not an isolated case.
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photofly
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Re: Circling Procedures

Post by photofly »

What would happen on a PPC if MDA was 2500 agl? When would it be acceptable to descend below that?
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NotDirty!
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Re: Circling Procedures

Post by NotDirty! »

photofly wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:24 pm What would happen on a PPC if MDA was 2500 agl? When would it be acceptable to descend below that?
If the MDA is 2500 AGL, there is likely some terrain that has caused this! As an ACP, I would expect a detailed briefing of what the candidate’s plan was to complete this approach, and then I would evaluate how well they accomplished their plan (as well as how realistic the plan was in the first place!)
Unique approaches require unique techniques, so you cannot have one answer that works in every situation!
A circling approach on a 2-crew PPC can be an excellent demonstration of CRM skills, or a dramatic demonstration of the lack there of.
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photofly
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Re: Circling Procedures

Post by photofly »

Suppose you're flying the RNAV C at CYXP - plate as per the original post. Your plan is to break out at/before SINLU then circle to land runway 06 via the left downwind. You break out just above minimums, at about 2000 agl. Wouldn't it be sensible to continue the descent for a regular downwind? I'm exploring what "remain at the MDA until a normal landing is assured" means, in different situations.

A lot of circling minima have been removed from plates, because TC decided it isn't particularly safe having pilots breaking out at 700' agl or lower then descend below that to manoeuvre for the downwind. In some cases the loss of flexibility is unfortunate, because even though there's now an RNAV approach to both runways so no need for circling the inability to circle even in reasonable weather means an extra 10 minutes flying in a small plane.
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digits_
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Re: Circling Procedures

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:24 pm What would happen on a PPC if MDA was 2500 agl? When would it be acceptable to descend below that?
You are unlikely to encounter that. Most PPCs happen in a simulator. The airports that can be used for visual manouevers need to be approved for specific scenarios.

I strongly suspect only locations with vanilla-type approaches get approved to be used on PPCs.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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