Speed limit order within 10 NM
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am
Speed limit order within 10 NM
Hey folks!
Been having a debate about the requirement to be at 200 kts or less within 10 NM of an airport unless authorized to do so by ATS.
CAR 602.32 states
602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall
(a) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots if the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL; or
(b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
Regarding (b) : it says within 10 of a controlled aerodrome.
So my argument is that if an aerodrome served by an MF, but surrounded by a class E control zone… this restriction doesn’t apply due to the aerodrome not being controlled.
Or am I incorrect because it is surrounded from surface to 3000 agl by controlled airspace?
Would be great if ATS Or FSS would provide some insight.
Been having a debate about the requirement to be at 200 kts or less within 10 NM of an airport unless authorized to do so by ATS.
CAR 602.32 states
602.32 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall
(a) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots if the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL; or
(b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
Regarding (b) : it says within 10 of a controlled aerodrome.
So my argument is that if an aerodrome served by an MF, but surrounded by a class E control zone… this restriction doesn’t apply due to the aerodrome not being controlled.
Or am I incorrect because it is surrounded from surface to 3000 agl by controlled airspace?
Would be great if ATS Or FSS would provide some insight.
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
The answer is perfectly clear: it says controlled aerodrome, not controlled airspace.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
“You had me grounding 230 on radar? Must be a tailwind up there…”
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
Ads-b reports position, ground speed etc. don’t think it’s plumbed into the pitot and static pressure tubes.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
"In both directions?"
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
Not plumbed Into the lines directly of course but definitely connected to the Air Data Computers of modern airliners. Also, I heard YYZ ATC tell air Canada once to slow to 170 or less until the FAF, then he queried the pilots why they weren’t doing 170 but 180 instead. And the pilots replied there’s a tailwind, to which he said: “I can see your airspeed sir”
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
We had this debate at work a while back. I dug into the regs and found the definition of a controlled aerodrome, it’s right at the start of the CARs.
controlled aerodrome means an aerodrome at which an air traffic control unit is in operation; (aérodrome contrôlé)
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
No ATC unit at the aerodrome = uncontrolled, so 200 KIAS limit does not apply.tsgarp wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:33 am We had this debate at work a while back. I dug into the regs and found the definition of a controlled aerodrome, it’s right at the start of the CARs.
controlled aerodrome means an aerodrome at which an air traffic control unit is in operation; (aérodrome contrôlé)
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
MF is not a controlled aerodrome…. So you’re free to maintain 250 as late as you dare! (Lownslow did not exactly live up to his username when we managed 250 until 4nm final, IIRC)
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
Standard ADS-B does not include airspeed data, but there are systems that relay your FMS routing and MCP selections for speed/altitude/heading/etc. (A lot of this may require ADS-C).
I seem to recall that this was a bit of a problem a few years ago, when EuroControl started violating crews for having routing in their active FMS flight plan that they had not yet been cleared for (ie they had a domestic routing programmed, despite their clearance limit technically being an oceanic exit point). So they were able to charge them for a gross navigational error, despite not actually reaching that point in the flight plan yet (ensuring your route includes a discontinuity until cleared otherwise is the answer here)!
What I am not sure is whether this system cares about your actual speed, or just the speed you have selected on the MCP… as long as you have 200 or less selected within 10 miles are you good, so can you be in the process of deceleration?
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
It will be coming very soon. What one has to remember is that all of this is digitized already for the FDR. All that's missing is an interface to ADS-B, which is where things like altitude selection come from that ATC can already see.
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
Here is a snapshot of some of the data ADSB will transmit. Indicated airspeed seems to shows in Canada but not the US for Version 2. I doubt the controllers have access to this picture real time but that is the data available to TC/NavCan/Public etc.
- Attachments
-
- Screenshot 2023-04-17.jpg (609.8 KiB) Viewed 2917 times
-
- Rank 8
- Posts: 822
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:41 pm
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.
It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.
It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
The next interation will include a robot arm on the flight deck that ATC can control, so they can set the autopilot how they wanted you to set it in the first place.DHC-1 Jockey wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:43 am I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.
It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
This was great info! Thanks for the snapshot.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
I agree. It’s quite simple really….. if ATC says 170 to KIREX, just do as asked. Technology doesn’t allow much lying these days.DHC-1 Jockey wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:43 am I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.
It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.
Also, block growth…. Slow me down any day, every day.
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
Unless your catching a commute flight home..CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:09 amI agree. It’s quite simple really….. if ATC says 170 to KIREX, just do as asked. Technology doesn’t allow much lying these days.DHC-1 Jockey wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:43 am I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.
It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.
Also, block growth…. Slow me down any day, every day.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1146
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am
Re: Speed limit order within 10 NM
Well, that’s a whole other monster right there my friend.flyinhigh wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 10:19 amUnless your catching a commute flight home..CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:09 amI agree. It’s quite simple really….. if ATC says 170 to KIREX, just do as asked. Technology doesn’t allow much lying these days.DHC-1 Jockey wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:43 am I believe YYZ Terminal controllers can see indicated airspeed on their displays, in addition to the usual groundspeed.
It's part of a new system which I forget the name of at the moment (Intelligent Approach something something). It helps controllers especially in high wind conditions better space aircraft because they can see both indicated and actual groundspeed and slow/speed up aircraft accordingly.
Also, block growth…. Slow me down any day, every day.