Wide body with no former jet-time

[Fanblade]

All they have to do is remove flat pay and the problem disappears. Just saying.

[Crewbunk]

All they have to do is remove flat pay and the problem disappears. Just saying.

There’s no “problem”. Air Canada has dealt with training pilots how to fly jet aircraft for over 60 years. Not everyone Air Canada has hired has had (gasp) jet time. The training department is very flexible, extra time is always available. Not just in the simulator, but during line-Indoc as well. As noted, required minimum line-indoc is predicated on previous experience.

One of the bigger issues though, is training pilots on regional operations. South Pacific, North Pacific, Polar, Atlantic, Middle East, South Asia, South America. All require specific training and testing and it is readily available. And having jet time will make absolutely no difference. Hell, we have some destinations operating in a no-radar environment. Study notes are available and pilots are expected to know them.

Every now and then a new 777 Captain is trained that has never left North America. For example, one was hired as a 727 S/O, to DC-9 F/O, DC-9 CA, A320 CA to 777 CA. It’s a very steep learning curve, but it’s workable. Imagine your first flight of Line Indoc being YYZ-HKG!

[Dry Guy]

Imagine your first flight of Line Indoc being YYZ-HKG!

Mine was Heathrow. I didn't have much experience operating to an airport with a functional control tower.

[Blueontop]

All they have to do is remove flat pay and the problem disappears. Just saying.

There’s no “problem”. Air Canada has dealt with training pilots how to fly jet aircraft for over 60 years. Not everyone Air Canada has hired has had (gasp) jet time. The training department is very flexible, extra time is always available. Not just in the simulator, but during line-Indoc as well. As noted, required minimum line-indoc is predicated on previous experience.

One of the bigger issues though, is training pilots on regional operations. South Pacific, North Pacific, Polar, Atlantic, Middle East, South Asia, South America. All require specific training and testing and it is readily available. And having jet time will make absolutely no difference. Hell, we have some destinations operating in a no-radar environment. Study notes are available and pilots are expected to know them.

Every now and then a new 777 Captain is trained that has never left North America. For example, one was hired as a 727 S/O, to DC-9 F/O, DC-9 CA, A320 CA to 777 CA. It’s a very steep learning curve, but it’s workable. Imagine your first flight of Line Indoc being YYZ-HKG!

Flat pay isn’t a problem? Really?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Flat pay isn’t a problem? Really?

I would argue that flat pay in the narrow scope of the term is not much of a problem. Where I see the issue is what pay is being offered in the flat pay brackets.

If flat pay was 75, 80, 85, and 90 in the first four years (respectively) it wouldn't be as much of slap in the face as starting at 55.

[ant_321]

Flat pay isn’t a problem? Really?

I would argue that flat pay in the narrow scope of the term is not much of a problem. Where I see the issue is what pay is being offered in the flat pay brackets.

If flat pay was 75, 80, 85, and 90 in the first four years (respectively) it wouldn't be as much of slap in the face as starting at 55.

I think you have Stockholm syndrome. Nobody should be making less than $100k at Air Canada. Even that isn’t enough to have any real quality of life in the cities where the bases are.

[Crewbunk]

Flat pay isn’t a problem? Really?

In a thread entitled “Wide body with no former jet-time”, no it’s not. Really.

If you want to sway the subject to the morality, justification and circumstances of why flat pay even exists, that’s something else. Throw in the soon to be irrelevant ACPA as well. But …. it still is not a problem that pilots without jet time are flying wide body aircraft.

Doing Line-Indoc for over 14 years on the A320 and A330, I have flown with many many pilots whose first flight with me in an A330, was their first jet flight. (Other than the simulator).

Was it a problem? I wish it were appropriate to take pictures in the cockpit, but if you could see the wide grins after their first landing. You’d have the answer.

It’s just a big airplane.

[Loading...]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

[BTD]

All they have to do is remove flat pay and the problem disappears. Just saying.

There’s no “problem”. Air Canada has dealt with training pilots how to fly jet aircraft for over 60 years. Not everyone Air Canada has hired has had (gasp) jet time. The training department is very flexible, extra time is always available. Not just in the simulator, but during line-Indoc as well. As noted, required minimum line-indoc is predicated on previous experience.

One of the bigger issues though, is training pilots on regional operations. South Pacific, North Pacific, Polar, Atlantic, Middle East, South Asia, South America. All require specific training and testing and it is readily available. And having jet time will make absolutely no difference. Hell, we have some destinations operating in a no-radar environment. Study notes are available and pilots are expected to know them.

Every now and then a new 777 Captain is trained that has never left North America. For example, one was hired as a 727 S/O, to DC-9 F/O, DC-9 CA, A320 CA to 777 CA. It’s a very steep learning curve, but it’s workable. Imagine your first flight of Line Indoc being YYZ-HKG!

That is all true.

But based on the claim made, the thread changed direction to a who’d you rather. That’s where the counter arguments stem from.

[ZBBYLW]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

Dude? You can't be serious that you support 777FOs being paid 115k a year? Please tell me this is a joke. By year 4 you have the ability to be part activated so no sense keeping flat pay.

I'd say take every RP and FO's formula pay year 1 and maybe 2 and / by the number of those positions. That becomes flat hourly pay for two years and after that formula.

[TheStig]

The role of flat pay is to ensure junior pilots don’t earn more than those senior to them due to the equipment they’re assigned on their PIT course.

For example, the class starting this past week could only be offered RP positions, while the class later this month may have FO positions available. If New Hire pilots started on formula pay immediately the junior pilots would earn more than the senior pilots.

Flat pay should be one year and be a three digit hourly rate, after one year every pilot will have had the opportunity to bid to and be trained into a position that their seniority allows them to hold regardless of what initial position they were assigned when joining.

To echo what Fanblade stated, if pilots were paid formula rates at year two there would be no new hire vacancies for wide body FO’s.

[Crewbunk]

But based on the claim made, the thread changed direction to a who’d you rather. That’s where the counter arguments stem from.

I get what you are saying. But realistically, if you were a Triple Captain and you looked at your crew on your say … YYZ-GRU flight and you saw both the F/O and the R/P were brand new to the type, would it really matter if their previous type was a Dash-8 or ten years on the 320?

The real issue is that you are crossing the Amazon in the middle of the night with two that have never done it before. But, as I said previously, the study material is there and I find new guys on a type are so well prepared, it’s impressive.

[BTD]

But based on the claim made, the thread changed direction to a who’d you rather. That’s where the counter arguments stem from.

I get what you are saying. But realistically, if you were a Triple Captain and you looked at your crew on your say … YYZ-GRU flight and you saw both the F/O and the R/P were brand new to the type, would it really matter if their previous type was a Dash-8 or ten years on the 320?

The real issue is that you are crossing the Amazon in the middle of the night with two that have never done it before. But, as I said previously, the study material is there and I find new guys on a type are so well prepared, it’s impressive.

If the question is what would I prefer, well I would choose the 320 time. As you mention at the end of the day it isn’t a huge deal. I’ve done IOE here for about 5 years and am currently on the ‘67. I agree that most of the new hires are very sharp.

The real difference as you eluded to, is that it is now possible to have 2 guys who haven’t flown a jet, are brand new at the company and haven’t flown in the area much. None of it is hard, it’s just good to have experience. Go back 15 years ago and your FO on the wide bodies had at least 10 years at the company.

Get rid of flat pay and some of that will go away.

[sportingrifle]

Latest new hire class had 11 pilots with 705 jet time, 5 of them with heavy time.

[FL030]

Latest new hire class had 11 pilots with 705 jet time, 5 of them with heavy time.

At least one straight from the PC-12 too I noticed.

[flying4dollars]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

[Canadaflyer46]

If new hire classes are being filled with experienced pilots with all this 705 and heavy time, then flat pay is surely destined to stay? The company won’t want to increase the rates so long as they’re filling classes. I suppose we’ll see how much bargaining capital guys are willing to use on it at the negotiating table next year.

[Loading...]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

Yes good point, 1 year flat pay, or probational pay, would be a much better idea. I noticed some airlines down south do this too.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

Yes good point, 1 year flat pay, or probational pay, would be a much better idea. I noticed some airlines down south do this too.

but.. Why?

Canadian aviation at it's finest, never striving for better..

[co-joe]

I heard that unless you have former jet experience, you cant be considered for a WB position on initial hire. Just wondering if anybody knows whether or not this rumour is true?
This would seem abit silly, certaintly for those coming from Jazz.

It's not that learning a WB is more difficult than learning a NB. I'm sure any Dash pilot can make it through the initial course, and work their way through indoc. The issue with going WB is going to be staying current. Juniority, and the number of sectors a month you do means you'll have to put in extra work to maintain proficiency. If you aren't self motivated, and you don't have decent jet experience to fall back on, staying on top of things once you get on line and do 4 landings a month on line, will be difficult.

[tailgunner]

Flatpay rates need to double.
The problem is the lottery system of new hire equipment assignments. If one class has all RP positions, and the following class has all 777 FO positions, who makes more money if flatpay is eliminated? Year 2 formula pay greatly benefits the junior class of 777FO to the tune of perhaps tens of thousands of dollars. This needs to be thought about and addressed with any new pay system. What is fair?
I’m not advocating for a continuation of the 4 year flat pay system, but there needs to be a rational way to ensure that new hires are all compensated equally with each other. Otherwise, we have created a new rift between the new hire winners and losers depending on what they assign you.

[newcomer]

Flatpay rates need to double.
The problem is the lottery system of new hire equipment assignments. If one class has all RP positions, and the following class has all 777 FO positions, who makes more money if flatpay is eliminated? Year 2 formula pay greatly benefits the junior class of 777FO to the tune of perhaps tens of thousands of dollars. This needs to be thought about and addressed with any new pay system. What is fair?
I’m not advocating for a continuation of the 4 year flat pay system, but there needs to be a rational way to ensure that new hires are all compensated equally with each other. Otherwise, we have created a new rift between the new hire winners and losers depending on what they assign you.

This problem is created by the RP position, you should get rid of it. At most airlines, the 3rd and 4th pilot are FOs/Capts. All new hires should be FOs. Problem solved.

[BTD]

I heard that unless you have former jet experience, you cant be considered for a WB position on initial hire. Just wondering if anybody knows whether or not this rumour is true?
This would seem abit silly, certaintly for those coming from Jazz.

It's not that learning a WB is more difficult than learning a NB. I'm sure any Dash pilot can make it through the initial course, and work their way through indoc. The issue with going WB is going to be staying current. Juniority, and the number of sectors a month you do means you'll have to put in extra work to maintain proficiency. If you aren't self motivated, and you don't have decent jet experience to fall back on, staying on top of things once you get on line and do 4 landings a month on line, will be difficult.

The biggest factor is when the skipper goes on break, you might end up with 2 brand new guys holding down the fort. There is nothing wrong with being new, everybody is or was at one point. But it’s better if one or both of those guys have experience in that environment. On the NB, the longest a new hire is left alone is when the Capt has had that greasy burrito.

We need to make those right seat WB jobs attractive enough so that the guy with 3 or 4 years at the company wants to take them, and not sit as an RP. Easiest solution. Turf flat pay.

[Aimhii]

Better Yet...>Abolish the RP Position and make all Fully Licensed as they do in the US.

ALSO:

Flat pay would like like this:

1 - Need ALPA Nationwide for - Anyone Hired in Any Airline with CPL and 1000hrs starts at $50K at any air carrier.

2 - Anyone Hired at any 705 Carrier with ATPL and 5000hrs min pay $100k and for every 5000hrs above that, another $20k.

[pelmet]

I heard that unless you have former jet experience, you cant be considered for a WB position on initial hire. Just wondering if anybody knows whether or not this rumour is true?
This would seem abit silly, certaintly for those coming from Jazz.

It's not that learning a WB is more difficult than learning a NB. I'm sure any Dash pilot can make it through the initial course, and work their way through indoc. The issue with going WB is going to be staying current. Juniority, and the number of sectors a month you do means you'll have to put in extra work to maintain proficiency. If you aren't self motivated, and you don't have decent jet experience to fall back on, staying on top of things once you get on line and do 4 landings a month on line, will be difficult.

The biggest factor is when the skipper goes on break, you might end up with 2 brand new guys holding down the fort. There is nothing wrong with being new, everybody is or was at one point. But it’s better if one or both of those guys have experience in that environment. On the NB, the longest a new hire is left alone is when the Capt has had that greasy burrito.

We need to make those right seat WB jobs attractive enough so that the guy with 3 or 4 years at the company wants to take them, and not sit as an RP. Easiest solution. Turf flat pay.

Any chance that the dash guys who would be happy to have a system that allows two new dash guys up front while the captain sleeps would have a temporary different opinion if they were on a zed fare to Australia?