Recent WestJet ALPA video for all pilots

[CanadaAir]

Wow.
If you weren't at the event, all pilots should see what's going on.

Even for student pilots, flight instructor or low time FO, what's going on relates to your career.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgSk2kP_oM

[McKinley]

Wow.
If you weren't at the event, all pilots should see what's going on.

Even for student pilots, flight instructor or low time FO, what's going on relates to your career.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgSk2kP_oM

Unfortunately, the general public’s definition of “ exploitation” may differ. I don’t see many being receptive to exploitation occurring with salaries upwards of 200,000 per year.

I think 500,000 USD for pilots in the USA is quite far fetched. ( and I’m pro pilot)

[Dias]

I don't. It's the exact same job.

[CanadaAir]

Wow.
If you weren't at the event, all pilots should see what's going on.

Even for student pilots, flight instructor or low time FO, what's going on relates to your career.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgSk2kP_oM

Unfortunately, the general public’s definition of “ exploitation” may differ. I don’t see many being receptive to exploitation occurring with salaries upwards of 200,000 per year.

I think 500,000 USD for pilots in the USA is quite far fetched. ( and I’m pro pilot)

WestJet and US airlines share same airspace & destinations & same geography east to west.

With codeshare a passenger can be on a WestJet flight then transition to Skywest and Delta in the same day.

The ticket sold by WestJet, with the passenger initially with WestJet pilots prior to flying with Delta pilots.

What's the difference? Its the same.

Airspace, geography, destinations, aircraft type & passenger citizenship isn't reasons to pay WestJet pilots less.

Aviation's global. Passengers travel globally.
WestJets competing globally, the passengers are travelling around and connecting hubs.


Most pilots don't earn $200,000 per year. The pay's low. Pilots at Jazz, Air Canada and WestJet are starting $40,000 to $60,000.
Jet captains can start at $80,000.

Transit bus driver salaries can be $160,000 per year.

..l.png (160.02 KiB) Viewed 8174 times

Why do you think the pilots are earning $200,000?

[rookiepilot]

Pilots at Jazz, Air Canada and WestJet are starting $40,000 to $60,000.
Jet captains can start at $80,000.

Transit bus driver salaries can be $160,000 per year.

..l.png

New transit bus drivers start at $160,000 per year?

I think not. Try 63,000 -- Average -- not new which is your comparison.

Why are you posting false information? That is the reason I am commenting -- I have known highly experienced bus drivers, they sure didn't make anywhere near that.

https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/TTC-Tor ... l%20TTC%20(Toronto%20Transit,salary%20is%20%2463%2C390%20per%20year.

[‘Bob’]

I don't. It's the exact same job.

If it’s the exact same job… work the one that pays more.

But you can’t… so now…. (maybe)…. you understand why it’s not the exact same job.

There are a lot of harder jobs in aviation that pay much less. It’s not related to how difficult it is, how much responsibility you have, or what anyone in a completely different market makes.

Supply and demand, and Canadian pilots are still a dime a dozen compared to the US. Lobby Transport Canada for a 1500 hour rule
and maybe compensation will go up artificially.

Or maybe, most Canadian airlines—not having the cashflow of American ones—will not survive.. so there will be a few very well paid pilots and a lot of unemployed ones.

Compensation needs to go up but you are delusional if you think we will see $500k USD salaries in Canada just because WJ also flies from YYC to ATL like Delta (which then flies a lot more airplanes a lot more places).

People don’t understand how absolutely huge these US airlines are. Westjet is literally closer to a single McDonald’s franchise than it is to a major US airline in terms of assets, revenues, operating income, etc.

[Canadaflyer46]

I don't. It's the exact same job.

If it’s the exact same job… work the one that pays more.

But you can’t… so now…. (maybe)…. you understand why it’s not the exact same job.

There are a lot of harder jobs in aviation that pay much less. It’s not related to how difficult it is, how much responsibility you have, or what anyone in a completely different market makes.

Supply and demand, and Canadian pilots are still a dime a dozen compared to the US. Lobby Transport Canada for a 1500 hour rule
and maybe compensation will go up artificially.

Or maybe, most Canadian airlines—not having the cashflow of American ones—will not survive.. so there will be a few very well paid pilots and a lot of unemployed ones.

Compensation needs to go up but you are delusional if you think we will see $500k USD salaries in Canada just because WJ also flies from YYC to ATL like Delta (which then flies a lot more airplanes a lot more places).

People don’t understand how absolutely huge these US airlines are. Westjet is literally closer to a single McDonald’s franchise than it is to a major US airline in terms of assets, revenues, operating income, etc.

I would consider it more ‘delusional’ to think that an airline could go out of business because the pilots were paid closer to US rates. As an operating cost of an airline the pilot salaries are a single percentage. The price of fuel can double and airlines still stay flying. Trudeau doubles the security fees on a flight ticket and people are still booking flights! If you think an extra 2 or 3 bucks on a ticket to pay for higher pilot costs is going to jeopardize the survival of Canadian airlines then that kinda shows why we are where we’re at with the industry in this country. The tides are changing fortunately.

[accountant]

From AC's most recent F/S, Wages make up 19% of operating costs, fuel makes up approximately 28%. To make it sound like wages are insignificant in the big picture, they are not. Outside of fuel they are the second largest operating expense.

A 10% increase to wages across the board (hypothetically) would not mean a 2 or 3 dollar increase on a ticket. At a baseline (assuming 0 increase in any other costs, which is highly unlikely), tickets would need to increase 2.3% just cover wage increases.

Assume as well a 10% increase to wages also increases other costs (benefits management, etc) so really we're starting to talk significant dollars.

It's not a "couple bucks" on a ticket... it's far more than that.

Even with high load factors (close to 85% last quarter), AC still ran a loss before looking at the other variables (interest / financing / etc). You can bet WS/Onyx is in a similar boat.

If Canadian carriers had as many ancillary sources of revenue as US carriers did, you'd see a better contract.

(There you go --- here's my post not calling you all imbeciles, but backing it up with stats)

[Canadaflyer46]

From AC's most recent F/S, Wages make up 19% of operating costs, fuel makes up approximately 28%. To make it sound like wages are insignificant in the big picture, they are not. Outside of fuel they are the second largest operating expense.

A 10% increase to wages across the board (hypothetically) would not mean a 2 or 3 dollar increase on a ticket. At a baseline (assuming 0 increase in any other costs, which is highly unlikely), tickets would need to increase 2.3% just cover wage increases.

Assume as well a 10% increase to wages also increases other costs (benefits management, etc) so really we're starting to talk significant dollars.

It's not a "couple bucks" on a ticket... it's far more than that.

Even with high load factors (close to 85% last quarter), AC still ran a loss before looking at the other variables (interest / financing / etc). You can bet WS/Onyx is in a similar boat.

If Canadian carriers had as many ancillary sources of revenue as US carriers did, you'd see a better contract.

(There you go --- here's my post not calling you all imbeciles, but backing it up with stats)

That 19% is for 35000 employees. The pilots number 4500. So your stats are of no use to this discussion. Our MEC has ran the numbers and WJ can easily afford the increases we are seeking. It will be added to the cost of a ticket just as it will be with AC's huge increases that are coming. People don't seem to take any issue with paying the obscene $40 AIFs when they fly, so a few bucks (and it will only be a few bucks) added onto each ticket won't even be noticed.

[ant_321]

Accountant seems to have a hard time understanding math. An extra $1 per ticket per hour would cover some pretty good gains. Nobody is going to care that their YVR-YYZ flight is $5 more.

[accountant]

From AC's most recent F/S, Wages make up 19% of operating costs, fuel makes up approximately 28%. To make it sound like wages are insignificant in the big picture, they are not. Outside of fuel they are the second largest operating expense.

A 10% increase to wages across the board (hypothetically) would not mean a 2 or 3 dollar increase on a ticket. At a baseline (assuming 0 increase in any other costs, which is highly unlikely), tickets would need to increase 2.3% just cover wage increases.

Assume as well a 10% increase to wages also increases other costs (benefits management, etc) so really we're starting to talk significant dollars.

It's not a "couple bucks" on a ticket... it's far more than that.

Even with high load factors (close to 85% last quarter), AC still ran a loss before looking at the other variables (interest / financing / etc). You can bet WS/Onyx is in a similar boat.

If Canadian carriers had as many ancillary sources of revenue as US carriers did, you'd see a better contract.

(There you go --- here's my post not calling you all imbeciles, but backing it up with stats)

That 19% is for 35000 employees. The pilots number 4500. So your stats are of no use to this discussion. Our MEC has ran the numbers and WJ can easily afford the increases we are seeking. It will be added to the cost of a ticket just as it will be with AC's huge increases that are coming. People don't seem to take any issue with paying the obscene $40 AIFs when they fly, so a few bucks (and it will only be a few bucks) added onto each ticket won't even be noticed.

You recognize that when one group gets a wage gain, the others all ask for the same. Bargaining isn't as simple as you assuming that just the pilots will get an increase.

By the time bargaining is done and everyone has tried to take their piece of the pie, it will be far more than just a few bucks.

[CpnCrunch]

So, pilots should have their wages doubled, and everyone else stays the same? I actually have a lot more sympathy for the FAs.

[Canadaflyer46]

It doesn’t concern me at all about what any other employee is paid at my company. That’s their own battle to fight. Pilots are a unique work group, and comparing them to FAs/CSAs is obscene and a reminder of the ‘you’re all equal’ bullshit that WJ management got away with peddling for years.

[digits_]

From AC's most recent F/S, Wages make up 19% of operating costs, fuel makes up approximately 28%. To make it sound like wages are insignificant in the big picture, they are not. Outside of fuel they are the second largest operating expense.

When fuel prices double, does the CEO threaten to shut down the company because the doesn't like the rates?
Does he claim in the media the company can't afford it?

No, if anything, there's a 'sorry dear customers ('guests'), our fuel costs went up so much we have to raise our prices. So sorry, we'll give you an extra pretzel'. He doesn't start a rant about how unreasonable the fuelers are.

Why can't the same narrative be used for this case? "sorry guests, we need to pay our pilots more. In order to maintain our level of service, we have to raise the prices a bit again, but here, an extra cookie."

A 10% increase to wages across the board (hypothetically) would not mean a 2 or 3 dollar increase on a ticket. At a baseline (assuming 0 increase in any other costs, which is highly unlikely), tickets would need to increase 2.3% just cover wage increases.

You're confusing cause and effect. All the other costs already went up (inflation), and now the pilots want their piece of the pie.

Assume as well a 10% increase to wages also increases other costs (benefits management, etc) so really we're starting to talk significant dollars.

Why would benefits management go up? What other 'etc' is there? Processing a 100k paycheque or a 150k pay cheque takes the same amount of work.

If Canadian carriers had as many ancillary sources of revenue as US carriers did, you'd see a better contract.

What other ancillary sources of revenue do US carriers have that Westjet / AC don't have?

[rookiepilot]

Pilots are a unique work group

I’d pay you to hold a big sign saying those exact words on the picket line as travellers are blocked.

Lets see a real time public poll.

I support higher compensation for entry level pilots, but statements like that don’t endear one to the public

[cdnavater]

Pilots are a unique work group.

I’d pay you to hold a big sign saying those exact words on the picket line as travellers are blocked. (I improved it for clarity)

Lets see a real time public poll.

That’s not right rookie, you should make it clear what part is yours, you are adding your own words and implying that’s what was said!

[truecolours]

From AC's most recent F/S, Wages make up 19% of operating costs, fuel makes up approximately 28%. To make it sound like wages are insignificant in the big picture, they are not. Outside of fuel they are the second largest operating expense.

A 10% increase to wages across the board (hypothetically) would not mean a 2 or 3 dollar increase on a ticket. At a baseline (assuming 0 increase in any other costs, which is highly unlikely), tickets would need to increase 2.3% just cover wage increases.

Assume as well a 10% increase to wages also increases other costs (benefits management, etc) so really we're starting to talk significant dollars.

It's not a "couple bucks" on a ticket... it's far more than that.

Even with high load factors (close to 85% last quarter), AC still ran a loss before looking at the other variables (interest / financing / etc). You can bet WS/Onyx is in a similar boat.

If Canadian carriers had as many ancillary sources of revenue as US carriers did, you'd see a better contract.

(There you go --- here's my post not calling you all imbeciles, but backing it up with stats)

That 19% is for 35000 employees. The pilots number 4500. So your stats are of no use to this discussion. Our MEC has ran the numbers and WJ can easily afford the increases we are seeking. It will be added to the cost of a ticket just as it will be with AC's huge increases that are coming. People don't seem to take any issue with paying the obscene $40 AIFs when they fly, so a few bucks (and it will only be a few bucks) added onto each ticket won't even be noticed.

You recognize that when one group gets a wage gain, the others all ask for the same. Bargaining isn't as simple as you assuming that just the pilots will get an increase.

By the time bargaining is done and everyone has tried to take their piece of the pie, it will be far more than just a few bucks.

That isn't how bargaining works at all. Each group is unique. If they want something, they have to ask for it. The market will determine if they get it or not. ALPA isn't negotiating for the CSA's (already agreed to their CA) or AME's (fingers crossed for them).

[rando]

Did blockbuster have a “me too” clause with Netflix?

If they get a raise we get a raise! How would that work out?

The market is your leverage, not some “I’m entitled to what they get” as in I point my finger where people are gaining and try to jump in the bandwagon. Meanwhile I completely ignore anywhere I see concessions as “me too” only works for gains!

Where were flight attendants the past 20 years screaming “me too” for their pay cuts to match the pilots?

Work on new skills and enhance your employability of you want to get more out of your career. This is no a knock on flight attendants, this is simply how negotiations work.

[pitottubey]

Wow the comments from the pilots here defending the abysmal wages in Canada just highlights the brainwashing and Stockholm syndrome that got us to the point where we have airline pilots living below the poverty line, and the lowest paid widebody FOs on the planet. Pathetic. Step out of the way for the pilots that are paving the future and setting things right from the mess you've made.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Wow the comments from the pilots here defending the abysmal wages in Canada just highlights the brainwashing and Stockholm syndrome that got us to the point where we have airline pilots living below the poverty line, and the lowest paid widebody FOs on the planet. Pathetic. Step out of the way for the pilots that are paving the future and setting things right from the mess you've made.

"accountant" is not a pilot.

"accountant" is someone who is not satisfied unless they drag other people down to their level.

[Canadaflyer46]

Pilots are a unique work group.

I’d pay you to hold a big sign saying those exact words on the picket line as travellers are blocked. (I improved it for clarity)

Lets see a real time public poll.

That’s not right rookie, you should make it clear what part is yours, you are adding your own words and implying that’s what was said!

Yes thank you Cdnavater. WTF Rookie, that isn't right.

[BTD]

Wow rookie. Adding words to a quote, in that way, is incredibly deceptive.

[rookiepilot]

Wow rookie. Adding words to a quote, in that way, is incredibly deceptive.

Fixed it.

Now please tell me though, how pilots are a “unique work group”

[cdnavater]

Wow rookie. Adding words to a quote, in that way, is incredibly deceptive.

Fixed it.

Now please tell me though, how pilots are a “unique work group”

Because, they are the only group that can shut it down, the only group that has to be employed by the company in order to attain and maintain an AOC. All other groups can be trained in a couple days to weeks or can be contracted out by a third party vendor.
You don’t have an airline without airplanes and you don’t fly airplanes without pilots, simple!
Don’t get me wrong, the other groups can shut it down but the difference is they can be replaced in a much shorter timeframe.

[rookiepilot]

Wow rookie. Adding words to a quote, in that way, is incredibly deceptive.

Fixed it.

Now please tell me though, how pilots are a “unique work group”

Because, they are the only group that can shut it down, the only group that has to be employed by the company in order to attain and maintain an AOC. All other groups can be trained in a couple days to weeks or can be contracted out by a third party vendor.
You don’t have an airline without airplanes and you don’t fly airplanes without pilots, simple!
Don’t get me wrong, the other groups can shut it down but the difference is they can be replaced in a much shorter timeframe.

OK. For the record I support this strike and especially the pay for entry level pilots.

Onex sure sounds like a nice group of people….

I thought the quote meant “a unique worker group to any in Canada”

My mistake then.

The thing I will say, is a ton of other worker groups feel the same as WJ pilots, don’t be surprised to see a lot of other strikes…….

I’ve said it before. You’re guys issue should be with TFW’s. Every one of you should be jamming your MP’s phone lines until people with zero ties to Canada aren’t allowed to undercut you.