Negotiations

[rudder]

I’m sure they’d be happy to take them

Why not? Air Canada pays for the training at Jazz. What’s an initial from day 1 to line check cost? I bet it’s a lot. Saves Porter a lot of money. They can just do a short course now to switch to the E2.

Yup. I believe it’s fast groundschool with 4 sims and a ride. They might toss in a ground trainer SIT but I can’t be sure. Oh and I know this for a fact also, they will fast track you ahead of others waiting for sim dates.

Not to say you skip the seniority queue. That’s all DOH. But you may be flying before others hired ahead of you

If there are YUL/YHU spots open after the internal bid you will likely have lots of QC resident type endorsed applicants.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Why not? Air Canada pays for the training at Jazz. What’s an initial from day 1 to line check cost? I bet it’s a lot. Saves Porter a lot of money. They can just do a short course now to switch to the E2.

Yup. I believe it’s fast groundschool with 4 sims and a ride. They might toss in a ground trainer SIT but I can’t be sure. Oh and I know this for a fact also, they will fast track you ahead of others waiting for sim dates.

Not to say you skip the seniority queue. That’s all DOH. But you may be flying before others hired ahead of you

If there are YUL/YHU spots open after the internal bid you will likely have lots of QC resident type endorsed applicants.

Yes. And I imagine even a few from the bordering YOW.

[rudder]

Yup. I believe it’s fast groundschool with 4 sims and a ride. They might toss in a ground trainer SIT but I can’t be sure. Oh and I know this for a fact also, they will fast track you ahead of others waiting for sim dates.

Not to say you skip the seniority queue. That’s all DOH. But you may be flying before others hired ahead of you

If there are YUL/YHU spots open after the internal bid you will likely have lots of QC resident type endorsed applicants.

Yes. And I imagine even a few from the bordering YOW.

RD and MD must be having a good chuckle each weekend at the cottage about how many $$ they are saving on E2 training, and the resources that have been funnelled from Jazz to PD to both facilitate and accelerate the E2 startup.

All I can say to PD is…… well played. Committing to a realistic (circa 2023) pay scale was very forward thinking and timely considering the dearth of qualified pilot resources available in Canada.

[GIVCE!]

This will be the death of Jazz in its current form.

[rudder]

This will be the death of Jazz in its current form.

My guess is that AC is already rethinking its Express strategy. The expanded order book for 60 A220’s is likely a move in that direction. There will be other shoes that drop.

It is one thing to lose. It is another to not even bother to fight.

[Timetoflyagain]

Sadly, if they do offer Porter Rates + $1.00, they'll have no shortage of applicants.
[/quote]

…think so? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Join SR 2.0 and for a few years ok.,then get rolled into Jazz again, or be played off each other again? In occupied Ukraine that’s called canon fodder.
0.02

[Flyerone]

MEC and company met today. Company brought an offer. Not holding my breath that it's any good.

Any truth to this cause union havent said a word

[Malfunction]

MEC and company met today. Company brought an offer. Not holding my breath that it's any good.

Any update from your friend?

[truedude]

MEC and company met today. Company brought an offer. Not holding my breath that it's any good.

Any update from your friend?

The company and union are always in contact floating ideas around. The union has been firm on what they want, but I doubt anything about this was anything outside their usually conversations.

[Nick678]

MEC and company met today. Company brought an offer. Not holding my breath that it's any good.

Any update from your friend?

The company and union are always in contact floating ideas around. The union has been firm on what they want, but I doubt anything about this was anything outside their usually conversations.

You say firm…. Do we know what they are asking for?

[Malfunction]

No one has any idea what the union is asking for. I'm assuming it's pretty good since the company is basically saying the would go broke paying it.

[rudder]

No one has any idea what the union is asking for. I'm assuming it's pretty good since the company is basically saying the would go broke paying it.

It ain’t rocket science.

Across the board pay increases (hopefully disproportionately aimed at year 1-5)

Increase in pay override for training pilots.

A pilot movement agreement on terms that are enforceable and functional for all parties.

Jazz is way behind in any type of mark-to-market recalibration of pilot pay. It also needs to recognize that training pilots are an essential component of sustaining an operation during times of high pilot turnover. And finally, flow to AC is an integral component of pilot recruitment and retention in the Express operation.

It shouldn't take the union to have to explain this. Sure, have a fight about the final $$, but the reality of what is happening in the industry in 2023 is self evident.

[Nick678]

No one has any idea what the union is asking for. I'm assuming it's pretty good since the company is basically saying the would go broke paying it.

It ain’t rocket science.

Across the board pay increases (hopefully disproportionately aimed at year 1-5)

Increase in pay override for training pilots.

A pilot movement agreement on terms that are enforceable and functional for all parties.

Jazz is way behind in any type of mark-to-market recalibration of pilot pay. It also needs to recognize that training pilots are an essential component of sustaining an operation during times of high pilot turnover. And finally, flow to AC is an integral component of pilot recruitment and retention in the Express operation.

It shouldn't take the union to have to explain this. Sure, have a fight about the final $$, but the reality of what is happening in the industry in 2023 is self evident.

The pay stuff is a no brained but from the surveys it seems they are trying to sacrifice/reduce flow to get it. I know the MEC doesn’t want to “show its hand” to the pilot group but it would be nice to know more details.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Too bad rudder is not the MEC.

[canadian_aviator_4]

No one has any idea what the union is asking for. I'm assuming it's pretty good since the company is basically saying the would go broke paying it.

It ain’t rocket science.

Across the board pay increases (hopefully disproportionately aimed at year 1-5)

Increase in pay override for training pilots.

A pilot movement agreement on terms that are enforceable and functional for all parties.

Jazz is way behind in any type of mark-to-market recalibration of pilot pay. It also needs to recognize that training pilots are an essential component of sustaining an operation during times of high pilot turnover. And finally, flow to AC is an integral component of pilot recruitment and retention in the Express operation.

It shouldn't take the union to have to explain this. Sure, have a fight about the final $$, but the reality of what is happening in the industry in 2023 is self evident.

The pay stuff is a no brained but from the surveys it seems they are trying to sacrifice/reduce flow to get it. I know the MEC doesn’t want to “show its hand” to the pilot group but it would be nice to know more details.

From the lack of interest or concern regarding flow from multiple senior pilots, ALPA union reps and even the MEC, this is not a surprise.

[rudder]

The pay stuff is a no brained but from the surveys it seems they are trying to sacrifice/reduce flow to get it. I know the MEC doesn’t want to “show its hand” to the pilot group but it would be nice to know more details.

From the lack of interest or concern regarding flow from multiple senior pilots, ALPA union reps and even the MEC, this is not a surprise.

A substantial pay bump for year 1-5. A moderate pay bump for all others but not necessarily linear. Partially accomplished by compressing the ridiculously long pay scales.

Flow rate slightly reduced but 100% guaranteed. Best way to accomplish this is a reserved number in a case where a pilot is not permitted or opts not to attend his/her designated AC PIT course. Such pilot shall NOT be replaced on that PIT course by another flow pilot.

Training pilot overrides must increase and be applied equally. A lack of training volunteers will otherwise become the choke point for replacing pilots lost to attrition.

All easily said but less easily done. Status quo is not working.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Too bad rudder is not the MEC.

Agreed. Rudder knows where it’s at.

[link821]

Rudder for mec

[200Above]

How is Jazz going to pattern bargain like Flair, WJ, AC, Morningstar, Canadian North, etc..... when they are locked into a 17 year deal (2035)?

You're on pace to miss around 3-4 rounds of bargaining....

[mmm..bacon]

A substantial pay bump for year 1-5. A moderate pay bump for all others but not necessarily linear. Partially accomplished by compressing the ridiculously long pay scales.

Flow rate slightly reduced but 100% guaranteed. Best way to accomplish this is a reserved number in a case where a pilot is not permitted or opts not to attend his/her designated AC PIT course. Such pilot shall NOT be replaced on that PIT course by another flow pilot.

Training pilot overrides must increase and be applied equally. A lack of training volunteers will otherwise become the choke point for replacing pilots lost to attrition.

All easily said but less easily done. Status quo is not working.

[Playing Devil's Advocate here..] So I'm at a party the other night, and I met a couple of people who had just been hired by Jazz. Great personalities, keen, etc.. But..low time/experience - as in ~1000hrs instructing experience - so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly. How much of a bump should they get in year one? As someone posted elsewhere on here a few months back, a Dash F/O is one of the easiest jobs out there - ILS to ILS, all the flight and fuel planning done for you, great MX, a dispatch centre to help you, and, if all else fails, then look left and say "you have control!" What's that actually worth? $40k? 50? 60? 70? Should there be a matrix for time/experience?

Agreed that the 17? year pay scale needs some tweaking.

Also, the top end. Why would someone earning, say, $130k flying medevac take a $50k paycut to $80 to work for Jazz, with a ?10 year wait to get back to $130? And, you've probably got to move to a ridiculously high COL area to do so..

[digits_]

- so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly.

That should set them up greatly to watch the autopilot fly!


Seriously tough, maybe if we would all stop bashing other areas of aviation, or other positions in the same bloody aircraft we work, life would be better.

[CaptDukeNukem]

- so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly.

That should set them up greatly to watch the autopilot fly!


Seriously tough, maybe if we would all stop bashing other areas of aviation, or other positions in the same bloody aircraft we work, life would be better.

I’m with digits. If you fly a Texas lawn dart or a Mew-Two, or a Q-four or a jungle jet, everyone is getting to where they wanna be.

[canadian_aviator_4]

How is Jazz going to pattern bargain like Flair, WJ, AC, Morningstar, Canadian North, etc..... when they are locked into a 17 year deal (2035)?

You're on pace to miss around 3-4 rounds of bargaining....

The people who voted this contract in are part of the problem. Hopefully they have had a mentality change since and now are promoting for better pay and conditions for all pilots.

[RockSalty]

A substantial pay bump for year 1-5. A moderate pay bump for all others but not necessarily linear. Partially accomplished by compressing the ridiculously long pay scales.

Flow rate slightly reduced but 100% guaranteed. Best way to accomplish this is a reserved number in a case where a pilot is not permitted or opts not to attend his/her designated AC PIT course. Such pilot shall NOT be replaced on that PIT course by another flow pilot.

Training pilot overrides must increase and be applied equally. A lack of training volunteers will otherwise become the choke point for replacing pilots lost to attrition.

All easily said but less easily done. Status quo is not working.

[Playing Devil's Advocate here..] So I'm at a party the other night, and I met a couple of people who had just been hired by Jazz. Great personalities, keen, etc.. But..low time/experience - as in ~1000hrs instructing experience - so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly. How much of a bump should they get in year one? As someone posted elsewhere on here a few months back, a Dash F/O is one of the easiest jobs out there - ILS to ILS, all the flight and fuel planning done for you, great MX, a dispatch centre to help you, and, if all else fails, then look left and say "you have control!" What's that actually worth? $40k? 50? 60? 70? Should there be a matrix for time/experience?

Agreed that the 17? year pay scale needs some tweaking.

Also, the top end. Why would someone earning, say, $130k flying medevac take a $50k paycut to $80 to work for Jazz, with a ?10 year wait to get back to $130? And, you've probably got to move to a ridiculously high COL area to do so..

Nobody in the left seat of a medevac bird is going to the regionals, everyone I know thats moved on has gone to AC or WJ

[rudder]

A substantial pay bump for year 1-5. A moderate pay bump for all others but not necessarily linear. Partially accomplished by compressing the ridiculously long pay scales.

Flow rate slightly reduced but 100% guaranteed. Best way to accomplish this is a reserved number in a case where a pilot is not permitted or opts not to attend his/her designated AC PIT course. Such pilot shall NOT be replaced on that PIT course by another flow pilot.

Training pilot overrides must increase and be applied equally. A lack of training volunteers will otherwise become the choke point for replacing pilots lost to attrition.

All easily said but less easily done. Status quo is not working.

[Playing Devil's Advocate here..] So I'm at a party the other night, and I met a couple of people who had just been hired by Jazz. Great personalities, keen, etc.. But..low time/experience - as in ~1000hrs instructing experience - so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly. How much of a bump should they get in year one? As someone posted elsewhere on here a few months back, a Dash F/O is one of the easiest jobs out there - ILS to ILS, all the flight and fuel planning done for you, great MX, a dispatch centre to help you, and, if all else fails, then look left and say "you have control!" What's that actually worth? $40k? 50? 60? 70? Should there be a matrix for time/experience?

Agreed that the 17? year pay scale needs some tweaking.

Also, the top end. Why would someone earning, say, $130k flying medevac take a $50k paycut to $80 to work for Jazz, with a ?10 year wait to get back to $130? And, you've probably got to move to a ridiculously high COL area to do so..

Nobody in the left seat of a medevac bird is going to the regionals, everyone I know thats moved on has gone to AC or WJ

If Jazz is serious about attracting and retaining qualified candidates, then right seat seat needs to start at least $65k and left seat needs to start at least $100k. Even at those rates pilots will realize there are better economic opportunities available elsewhere.

I could see a nominally lower non-ATPL rate applied to those candidates. In a perfect world, Jazz would not be hiring non-ATPL pilots. But it is not a perfect world.