Negotiations

[hithere]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

[canadian_aviator_4]

With current attrition, inability to follow the contract, and inaction to make any improvements I don’t see the company lasting past 2025. It has become one of the worst airlines to work for in North America and nothing seems to indicate things will improve anytime soon.
Attrition will only accelerate as everyone else makes gains.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

You’re right. Positive space travel at zero cost would absolutely help at a minimum. Even J class upgrades could probably hold down some commuters. I will politely disagree with one statement from your post. AC does not need to sign off on any agreement changes between Jazz and the pilot group. The fact is, the pilot contract is valid until 2035. Jazz need to up the scales and conditions. That’s entirely on them.

I will say, I was at sky, we had a CPA agreement also and a union and a contract….and protections and look what happened.

[cdnavater]

How is Jazz going to pattern bargain like Flair, WJ, AC, Morningstar, Canadian North, etc..... when they are locked into a 17 year deal (2035)?

You're on pace to miss around 3-4 rounds of bargaining....

The people who voted this contract in are part of the problem. Hopefully they have had a mentality change since and now are promoting for better pay and conditions for all pilots.

I’d say that we are both equally to blame, except our backs were against the wall and we had no choice whether perceived or real does not matter but who’s to blame for accepting those conditions. It’s not like it was a secret!
Speaking of, you are extremely unhappy at Jazz, there are plenty of jobs, why are you still here? It’s time for you to cut bait and run, your mental health depends on it.

[cdnavater]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

You’re right. Positive space travel at zero cost would absolutely help at a minimum. Even J class upgrades could probably hold down some commuters. I will politely disagree with one statement from your post. AC does not need to sign off on any agreement changes between Jazz and the pilot group. The fact is, the pilot contract is valid until 2035. Jazz need to up the scales and conditions. That’s entirely on them.

I will say, I was at sky, we had a CPA agreement also and a union and a contract….and protections and look what happened.

AC is the one holding the purse strings, Jazz is barely making any profit, therefore AC would have to pony up!
Chorus is making money but the board would not let an asset drag it down, they would not likely shuffle money from Chorus to Jazz for increased pilot pay

[hithere]

Jazz management is claiming the raises we are asking for would make the margins from the CPA evaporate. So to afford the raises, AC would need to be willing to renegotiate the CPA with larger margins. So yes AC needs to sign off on it.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Doesn’t chorus make money indirectly with jazz through the leasing of its aircraft? Otherwise, why would chorus still hold on to jazz. Would make more sense to sell, or spin into a separate company entirely not dragging down its balance sheets.

[futboler14]

I take it nothing tangible has really transpired (other than dialog between the four parties) since this thread was created 7 months ago?

Pretty slow moving.

[canadian_aviator_4]

I take it nothing tangible has really transpired (other than dialog between the four parties) since this thread was created 7 months ago?

Pretty slow moving.

By the time that happens I can only imagine jazz will be a shadow of what it once was, with attrition and retirements.

[goleafsgo]

Even if the company covered our benefits at 100% that would be a great increase on our take home pay, and our income tax deductions would stay the same. Honestly at this point I’d take that over a raise

[hithere]

The only problem with just covering 100% of the benefit premiums is that is does not help recruitment much because people don’t really appreciate how much we lose in deductions until they are already hired. It’s attracting them in the first place that is the problem, and they need to be able to advertise higher pay rates to get people in the door. But yes, 100% company contributions would feel like a raise to those of us that are already here.

[Timetoflyagain]

Also, the top end. Why would someone earning, say, $130k flying medevac take a $50k paycut to $80 to work for Jazz, with a ?10 year wait to get back to $130? And, you've probably got to move to a ridiculously high COL area to do so..
[/quote]

Nobody in the left seat of a medevac bird is going to the regionals, everyone I know thats moved on has gone to AC or WJ
[/quote]

…I used to fly medivacs…years worth. That company went bankrupt. I knew other pilots who also flew medivac. They’re dead now. Eventually even government contracts go bye bye. Eventually a dark snowy night onto an unplowed gravel runway will end up upside down. That’s why that driver is getting $130K/ year, and why I left it to get something safer, more secure and long term..as in retirement. It’s very unfortunate that the cost of that (currently) is a huge pay cut..but it’s about supply, demand and personal choices and situation.

[QKZXKV]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

You’re right. Positive space travel at zero cost would absolutely help at a minimum. Even J class upgrades could probably hold down some commuters. I will politely disagree with one statement from your post. AC does not need to sign off on any agreement changes between Jazz and the pilot group. The fact is, the pilot contract is valid until 2035. Jazz need to up the scales and conditions. That’s entirely on them.

I will say, I was at sky, we had a CPA agreement also and a union and a contract….and protections and look what happened.

AC absolutely needs to sign off on it... they have a stake in ownership and a seat at the board that was included in the 2019 CPA amendments. Too simplistic to think otherwise.

[rudder]

I take it nothing tangible has really transpired (other than dialog between the four parties) since this thread was created 7 months ago?

Pretty slow moving.

Several meetings and several MEC bulletins later, what has changed?

Nothing. Other than dozens and dozens of pilots resigning from Jazz.

From the company perspective, doing nothing is a choice. They have made a choice.

And individual pilots are making their own choices.

[Inverted2]

But if you ask management:

[rudder]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

You’re right. Positive space travel at zero cost would absolutely help at a minimum. Even J class upgrades could probably hold down some commuters. I will politely disagree with one statement from your post. AC does not need to sign off on any agreement changes between Jazz and the pilot group. The fact is, the pilot contract is valid until 2035. Jazz need to up the scales and conditions. That’s entirely on them.

I will say, I was at sky, we had a CPA agreement also and a union and a contract….and protections and look what happened.

AC absolutely needs to sign off on it... they have a stake in ownership and a seat at the board that was included in the 2019 CPA amendments. Too simplistic to think otherwise.

The CPA will (ultimately) need to be renegotiated.

Might not happen this year. Might not happen next year. But it will in all likelihood eventually be renegotiated.

Not a single CPA between CHR and AC has gone full term without being renegotiated.

[mmm...bacon]

I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

As someone mentioned earlier though, if the goal of the CPA is to guarantee costs for AC and revenue for Jazz/Chorus, then terminating the CPA makes no sense. AC still needs regionals (are they honestly going to fly YQQ-YVR with a jet of some sort vs a T-prop?) and any other regional (Porter?) is already paying 'market' wages. They (AC) are best to stick with what they've got: Jazz..

[rudder]

I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

As someone mentioned earlier though, if the goal of the CPA is to guarantee costs for AC and revenue for Jazz/Chorus, then terminating the CPA makes no sense. AC still needs regionals (are they honestly going to fly YQQ-YVR with a jet of some sort vs a T-prop?) and any other regional (Porter?) is already paying 'market' wages. They (AC) are best to stick with what they've got: Jazz..

The ‘goal’ of the CPA for AC is AC code flights on smaller gauge aircraft to feed the mainline operation at the hubs. AC would desire to do that at a known and fixed cost. Under the current arrangement, AC pays ‘fixed fee’ per airframe with required annual block hours associated. A good portion of the operating costs for these flights are ‘pass through’ (covered directly by AC). The remainder (such as labour costs) are borne by CHR/Jazz.

The ‘goal’ of the CPA for CHR is the ‘fixed fee’ revenue as well as the significant revenue derived from the leasing arrangements with AC for Express operated airframes that are owned by CHR.

Alternatives for AC are mainline capacity (including Rouge) as well as North American codeshare (UA including UA Express). AC could expand these alternatives via negotiations with ACPA which could include expanded codeshare language and/or operating Express gauge aircraft at mainline.

Sourcing another potential Express operator in Canada would be problematic as pilot labour supply is a problem for most other operators other than AC (hence the option of repatriating as much Express work as possible to mainline).

Regardless, AC cannot unilaterally breach the CPA absent non-performance from CHR on its CPA obligations. The parties could reach a mutual agreement to amend/terminate the CPA or refer a disagreement to the dispute resolution process.

In any case, the latest AC quarterly MD&A still shows a projected Express fleet of 114 aircraft. So one can presume that is the story until the story changes. Neither AC nor CHR report actual block hours operated at Express.

[Fanblade]

I take it nothing tangible has really transpired (other than dialog between the four parties) since this thread was created 7 months ago?

Pretty slow moving.

Several meetings and several MEC bulletins later, what has changed?

Nothing. Other than dozens and dozens of pilots resigning from Jazz.

From the company perspective, doing nothing is a choice. They have made a choice.

And individual pilots are making their own choices.

Three way negotiations are always tough. Until AC ponies up Chorus can’t do anything. AC won’t do anything until forced to. I don’t mean writing on the wall forced to. I mean can’t provide the service forced to. Actual fallout forced to.

AC was planning summer 2023 since last fall. They clearly think they can manage. If AC doesn’t manage this summer that will be the forced to moment. If they manage summer the next forced to moment is fall planning and training for Summer 2024.

AC needs a regional. AC needs to retain pilots. AC can’t go elsewhere because the same problem would exist.

The forced to point is somewhere. It’s lurking.

[rudder]

I take it nothing tangible has really transpired (other than dialog between the four parties) since this thread was created 7 months ago?

Pretty slow moving.

Several meetings and several MEC bulletins later, what has changed?

Nothing. Other than dozens and dozens of pilots resigning from Jazz.

From the company perspective, doing nothing is a choice. They have made a choice.

And individual pilots are making their own choices.

Three way negotiations are always tough. Until AC ponies up Chorus can’t do anything. AC won’t do anything until forced to. I don’t mean writing on the wall forced to. I mean can’t provide the service forced to. Actual fallout forced to.

AC was planning summer 2023 since last fall. They clearly think they can manage. If AC doesn’t manage this summer that will be the forced to moment. If they manage summer the next forced to moment is fall planning and training for Summer 2024.

AC needs a regional. AC needs to retain pilots. AC can’t go elsewhere because the same problem would exist.

The forced to point is somewhere. It’s lurking.

Lots of moving parts.

AC could agree to increase the ‘fixed fee’ amount in conjunction with an expanded leasing agreement on perhaps more favourable terms with CHR. This could include Express fleet renewal or perhaps even leases on mainline operated airframes.

[capt_Z]

WestJet --> Air Canada --> Jazz

Long way to gooooooooooooooooo

[truedude]

WestJet --> Air Canada --> Jazz

Long way to gooooooooooooooooo

Can't imagine why Jazz PFOd you. Your knowledge of the industry is nearly nonexistent.

[capt_Z]

[swervin]

So what’s up with todays announcement regarding the VP Flight Ops.

[tango308]

Something's up, not a retirement announcement.