AIP is dogshit

[TFTMB heavy]

I presume that the AIP adds one half of the prior company ESOP 20% match to hourly rates. That will then help to enhance entitlements that are directly wage based (overtime/disability/pension/etc).

I further presume the WJ pilot can then allocate the remaining 10% to some type of registered retirement vehicle (including a multi employer retirement plan if matched by the pilot employee).

I guess forthcoming details will clarify.

Does that not imply up to a 25% immediate increase in current hourly rates?

Just like you I’ve no direct skin in the game and understand it the same as you do.

[Malfunction]

All I need to say is...... don't pull a Jazz. The entire Canadian Aviation sector is hoping you win here. Votes no if it's crap. We want you to be rich so we can be rich later. Please..

[RockSalty]

I presume that the AIP adds one half of the prior company ESOP 20% match to hourly rates. That will then help to enhance entitlements that are directly wage based (overtime/disability/pension/etc).

I further presume the WJ pilot can then allocate the remaining 10% to some type of registered retirement vehicle (including a multi employer retirement plan if matched by the pilot employee).

I guess forthcoming details will clarify.

Does that not imply up to a 25% immediate increase in current hourly rates?

Just like you I’ve no direct skin in the game and understand it the same as you do.

I think part of the problem is that isnt "new money" for us, just a reallocation of something we're already getting.

[RippleRock]

American being offered $474 Canadian and hour, second year FO 738 $205 Canadian. That's nearly a 100% difference folks over the best guess AIP rates.

This while we fight for scraps. We're like mogrel street dogs trying to justify meager handouts.

Ah, to be "just Canadian".

[sarg]

15 percent more for perdiems? Are you kidding? Food is up 50 percent while on the road.

Tax free perdiems maximums are set by the federal government. You can't just increase tax free per diems by 50% without incurring tax implications

We could have come close though. The current GoC per diem rate is $123.00/ day with incidentals, 15% doesn't come close and if it's still all paid in a CAD rate it's even worse you lose 30% on every US or Mexican overnight more on any of the European overnights.

[sarg]

The WSP got worse too. Went from 20% free money to 10%... EASY NO!

Sorry, everyone was demanding that they should take 10% of the WSP and roll it into payrates. That's what happened. Had they left the 10% in it would have done nothing to address our take home pay issue. You can't bait and switch the NC and ask for something and then complain when they get it for you.

Sorry, I didn't ask for it and most of my friends didn't, so I'm not sure where your getting everyone from. Had they left the 20% WSP with no match it still would have done a lot for take home.

[Bede]

The WSP got worse too. Went from 20% free money to 10%... EASY NO!

Sorry, everyone was demanding that they should take 10% of the WSP and roll it into payrates. That's what happened. Had they left the 10% in it would have done nothing to address our take home pay issue. You can't bait and switch the NC and ask for something and then complain when they get it for you.

Sorry, I didn't ask for it and most of my friends didn't, so I'm not sure where your getting everyone from. Had they left the 20% WSP with no match it still would have done a lot for take home.

So you'd prefer your 20% in the WSP rather than 10% in the WSP and 10% extra wage?

[a2btrail]

All WJ pilots please VOTE NO. This contract is peanuts.

[Curiousflyer]

Sorry, everyone was demanding that they should take 10% of the WSP and roll it into payrates. That's what happened. Had they left the 10% in it would have done nothing to address our take home pay issue. You can't bait and switch the NC and ask for something and then complain when they get it for you.

Sorry, I didn't ask for it and most of my friends didn't, so I'm not sure where your getting everyone from. Had they left the 20% WSP with no match it still would have done a lot for take home.

So you'd prefer your 20% in the WSP rather than 10% in the WSP and 10% extra wage?

Bede, can you point to ANYTHING in this contract that is an actual gain?

All I see is cost neutral or actual loses.

Wages? - Cumulative inflation is 15% from 2019
WSP? - Still 20%, just re arranged how it’s paid (but nothing gained still cost neutral)
Pairings - Mid pairing trip trade, DH swaps, trading with open time. All cost neutral.
Per Diems 15% - Actual losses here as food prices have gone up cumulatively 25% since 2019.

But I guess you do get to sit in a premium seat if your DH is greater than 6.5 hours.

[flyinhigh]

Until you have sat in the room, ran an analyzer with the suggested changes, you have no idea what/if something is cost neutral. Reality is EVERYTHING has a cost, including that delicious bottle of Dasani.

Yes thing may have been moved around, but in doing so, it most likely achieved a subject of the polls.

Don’t overlook the scope language, between YOS for pay and a full rebid. That aspect alone in going to cost tens of millions. An 8 year FO is now going to 8 year Capt pay, that ain’t cheap which is why every company fights tooth and nail to get rid of YOS.

Scope was a huge huge win, the fact you’re integrating Sunwing when that ink is barely dry is incredible.

This is part of the reason why Unions don’t release agreements the day they are signed. Everyone is up in arms of the executive summary without hearing what has to be said by the negotiators.

[Malfunction]

You guys should be pissed. This isn't North American standard. This is wages adjusted for inflation. Im pretty sure all the American carriers union memebers who flew up here to help are embarrassed to be accociated with this..

[Blackdog0301]

Until you have sat in the room, ran an analyzer with the suggested changes, you have no idea what/if something is cost neutral. Reality is EVERYTHING has a cost, including that delicious bottle of Dasani.

Yes thing may have been moved around, but in doing so, it most likely achieved a subject of the polls.

Don’t overlook the scope language, between YOS for pay and a full rebid. That aspect alone in going to cost tens of millions. An 8 year FO is now going to 8 year Capt pay, that ain’t cheap which is why every company fights tooth and nail to get rid of YOS.

Scope was a huge huge win, the fact you’re integrating Sunwing when that ink is barely dry is incredible.

This is part of the reason why Unions don’t release agreements the day they are signed. Everyone is up in arms of the executive summary without hearing what has to be said by the negotiators.

You hit the nail 100%. This has to be the mindset of every WestJet pilot. Some looked at "15%" and came to the conclusion that this contract is garbage based on that number alone and ignoring everything else. Talk about tunnel vision.

[Nashbandicoot]

Sorry, I didn't ask for it and most of my friends didn't, so I'm not sure where your getting everyone from. Had they left the 20% WSP with no match it still would have done a lot for take home.

So you'd prefer your 20% in the WSP rather than 10% in the WSP and 10% extra wage?

Bede, can you point to ANYTHING in this contract that is an actual gain?

All I see is cost neutral or actual loses.

Wages? - Cumulative inflation is 15% from 2019
WSP? - Still 20%, just re arranged how it’s paid (but nothing gained still cost neutral)
Pairings - Mid pairing trip trade, DH swaps, trading with open time. All cost neutral.
Per Diems 15% - Actual losses here as food prices have gone up cumulatively 25% since 2019.

But I guess you do get to sit in a premium seat if your DH is greater than 6.5 hours.

Scope.

[Bede]

Bede, can you point to ANYTHING in this contract that is an actual gain?

All I see is cost neutral or actual loses.

Wages? - Cumulative inflation is 15% from 2019
WSP? - Still 20%, just re arranged how it’s paid (but nothing gained still cost neutral)
Pairings - Mid pairing trip trade, DH swaps, trading with open time. All cost neutral.
Per Diems 15% - Actual losses here as food prices have gone up cumulatively 25% since 2019.

But I guess you do get to sit in a premium seat if your DH is greater than 6.5 hours.

Let’s start with LoU2 gone and all the FOs who now have an upgrade with a proper salary.
Scope is a huge win as it prevents whipsawing in the future.

The other items aren’t cost neutral. Not everyone could afford WSP, now everyone is getting a raise.
The trading requires IT resources and staff to administer.

Everything has an associated cost.

[fish4life]

Sorry, I didn't ask for it and most of my friends didn't, so I'm not sure where your getting everyone from. Had they left the 20% WSP with no match it still would have done a lot for take home.

So you'd prefer your 20% in the WSP rather than 10% in the WSP and 10% extra wage?

Bede, can you point to ANYTHING in this contract that is an actual gain?

All I see is cost neutral or actual loses.

Wages? - Cumulative inflation is 15% from 2019
WSP? - Still 20%, just re arranged how it’s paid (but nothing gained still cost neutral)
Pairings - Mid pairing trip trade, DH swaps, trading with open time. All cost neutral.
Per Diems 15% - Actual losses here as food prices have gone up cumulatively 25% since 2019.

But I guess you do get to sit in a premium seat if your DH is greater than 6.5 hours.

Just to make sure the 15% pay increase is on 2022 rates not 2019 right ??? If not then that is crazy but I’d imagine they are on the 2022 rates which would add whatever previous COLA increases they had.

[airway]

This is part of the reason why Unions don’t release agreements the day they are signed. Everyone is up in arms of the executive summary without hearing what has to be said by the negotiators.

So, are you saying that it is better to have the excutive summary on the day the aggreement was signed rather than the whole aggrement?

Usually, the whole aggreement takes a few days or weeks to write up, and be approved by both parties.




.

[highlander]

Long time lurker, first time poster in these WJ specific threads (i think).

I've been at WJ for just over 15 years. Long time commuter and a family man. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't consider myself contract savvy. I don't have other carriers contracts in my ipad and memorized on a whim. I don't have a screenshot of someone's pay stub from AC, Flair SW or Delta. I do have friends at these places and from time to time we talk.....but we never compare paystubs...... that's like taking a ruler out and measuring your ding dong with your friends ding dong......some things you just shouldn't do and someone is going to be disappointed.

So far, I like what I see with this AIP.

For those who aren't at WJ, I'd tell you that you probably don't have all the facts and I'm not sure why you think you're the voice of reason here. I don't really care what a pilot from another ALPA carrier.....or any carrier thinks.

What people forget is that we had surveys. The surveys helped guide the MEC/Negots as to what the priorities would be for this CA. Some of the key things these surveys told the MEC and Negotiations were that we wanted improved take home pay, scope and general lifestyle/work balance improvements. It's all fine and dandy to ask for a 30% raise or whatever you think you're worth....but I see very little relevance in that when you're taxed like crazy and your net take home barely increases as a result of it. For 2022- my T4 was over 270,000. But I paid nearly 89,000 in income tax and that's with doing 20% (NRRSP/RRSP). For years, we've been saying that it's not WHAT we get paid......it's HOW we get paid.

Next- I think the 2 page summary isn't being read correctly and it's missing a couple of things. If you're an outsider looking in, or maybe another WJ pilot who didn't hear the podcast, I would argue you're missing some things. Before the 2 page summary was released, they released a podcast for our pilots. The podcast helped summarize the events and the AIP and what to expect. From there, they later submitted the 2 page summary. If you didn't hear the podcast and then read the summary, I think you wouldn't have all of the facts or context. For example, the podcast talked about a pension...but it's missing in the summary....likewise the summary mentions an LOL similar to Jazz but wasn't mentioned in the podcast. There were things said in the podcast that were not said in the summary and vice versa. If you put the podcast and written summary together you get an even better understanding of what this AIP means.

None of us have seen the pay scales or the TA. I've heard many sections are much longer and more robust than the last CA. Without having the entire document, I don't know how one automatically jumps to the conclusion that it is dogshit. Is it a YES vote for me....... well overall I like what I see- I guess they have to prove me wrong. I have no problem voting NO if the documents lacks details and has lots of ambiguity.

I'm excited because, since we've been certified, we haven't had a actual contract we've VOTED for. This is a big deal for us.

A final thought- One thing I've learned in over 30 years of flying is that someone will always fly something bigger and faster than you. I've also learned in life that someone (doing the same job or not) will also make more money than you. There's nothing wrong with wanting the best or the most....(heck we all want that) but once you've reached the top.....then what? Is it really ever good enough for you? (sorry for the philosophical rant).

The MEC leaders and Negots- in my opinion, are probably the best ones under these circumstances -that we've had since we certified. We've had different MEC leadership and I think these guys and gals are top notch and I can't imagine anyone else in their place. We were/are still ready and so are they. They were prepared to lead us through a strike and they didn't waver in this. I have no reason to believe they would have taken a mediocre AIP. They delivered an AIP that they felt was a good deal for us. I trust them.

Be safe out there.

[Crewbunk]

So far, I like what I see with this AIP.

For those who aren't at WJ, I'd tell you that you probably don't have all the facts and I'm not sure why you think you're the voice of reason here. I don't really care what a pilot from another ALPA carrier.....or any carrier thinks.

Very well said, and thank you for taking the time to post this. I agree with your sentiment, that a lot of people not at all involved with Westjet are making opinions. And …. they can’t wait to share them, fingers quivering with anticipation.

Another Westjet Captain posted a very interesting statement I think that is lost to many. “Everything has a cost”.

I looked at the non-monetary gains with respect. There are a LOT of (expensive) gains in that AIP. My jaw dropped when I read that Swoop and Sunwing will be combined with Westjet as one group, one payscale, one set of working conditions. That is HUGE. Probably worth a few hundred million right there. And, something the morons at ACPA were unable to achieve in 10+ years. (I fly for AC).

Looking at the Westjet ALPA podcasts, it was clear their mandate was not just money. They seem to have achieved their goal.

But, as I said to a Westjet buddy of mine. By my best estimation, you could have got a 35% raise, but with no other gains. What is better? My own uneducated opinion as an outsider, is that the presented AIP is better.

[WJ200]

Long time lurker, first time poster in these WJ specific threads (i think).

I've been at WJ for just over 15 years. Long time commuter and a family man. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't consider myself contract savvy. I don't have other carriers contracts in my ipad and memorized on a whim. I don't have a screenshot of someone's pay stub from AC, Flair SW or Delta. I do have friends at these places and from time to time we talk.....but we never compare paystubs...... that's like taking a ruler out and measuring your ding dong with your friends ding dong......some things you just shouldn't do and someone is going to be disappointed.

So far, I like what I see with this AIP.

For those who aren't at WJ, I'd tell you that you probably don't have all the facts and I'm not sure why you think you're the voice of reason here. I don't really care what a pilot from another ALPA carrier.....or any carrier thinks.

What people forget is that we had surveys. The surveys helped guide the MEC/Negots as to what the priorities would be for this CA. Some of the key things these surveys told the MEC and Negotiations were that we wanted improved take home pay, scope and general lifestyle/work balance improvements. It's all fine and dandy to ask for a 30% raise or whatever you think you're worth....but I see very little relevance in that when you're taxed like crazy and your net take home barely increases as a result of it. For 2022- my T4 was over 270,000. But I paid nearly 89,000 in income tax and that's with doing 20% (NRRSP/RRSP). For years, we've been saying that it's not WHAT we get paid......it's HOW we get paid.

Next- I think the 2 page summary isn't being read correctly and it's missing a couple of things. If you're an outsider looking in, or maybe another WJ pilot who didn't hear the podcast, I would argue you're missing some things. Before the 2 page summary was released, they released a podcast for our pilots. The podcast helped summarize the events and the AIP and what to expect. From there, they later submitted the 2 page summary. If you didn't hear the podcast and then read the summary, I think you wouldn't have all of the facts or context. For example, the podcast talked about a pension...but it's missing in the summary....likewise the summary mentions an LOL similar to Jazz but wasn't mentioned in the podcast. There were things said in the podcast that were not said in the summary and vice versa. If you put the podcast and written summary together you get an even better understanding of what this AIP means.

None of us have seen the pay scales or the TA. I've heard many sections are much longer and more robust than the last CA. Without having the entire document, I don't know how one automatically jumps to the conclusion that it is dogshit. Is it a YES vote for me....... well overall I like what I see- I guess they have to prove me wrong. I have no problem voting NO if the documents lacks details and has lots of ambiguity.

I'm excited because, since we've been certified, we haven't had a actual contract we've VOTED for. This is a big deal for us.

A final thought- One thing I've learned in over 30 years of flying is that someone will always fly something bigger and faster than you. I've also learned in life that someone (doing the same job or not) will also make more money than you. There's nothing wrong with wanting the best or the most....(heck we all want that) but once you've reached the top.....then what? Is it really ever good enough for you? (sorry for the philosophical rant).

The MEC leaders and Negots- in my opinion, are probably the best ones under these circumstances -that we've had since we certified. We've had different MEC leadership and I think these guys and gals are top notch and I can't imagine anyone else in their place. We were/are still ready and so are they. They were prepared to lead us through a strike and they didn't waver in this. I have no reason to believe they would have taken a mediocre AIP. They delivered an AIP that they felt was a good deal for us. I trust them.

Be safe out there.

Great post and sums up my feelings exactly. Many of those saying VOTE NO or this is horses!t haven't lived the lives that we have at Westjet and do not have the context of what we've experienced the last decade or more. This builds a great foundation and if you're an outsider encouraging a NO vote so that you can get more in your own pattern bargaining, you do not have the context of what this TA means. Also, nobody has seen the contract with the full picture and are just interpreting the limited information given. Patience and stop listening to all this noise.

[rudder]

For 2022- my T4 was over 270,000. But I paid nearly 89,000 in income tax and that's with doing 20% (NRRSP/RRSP). For years, we've been saying that it's not WHAT we get paid......it's HOW we get paid.

If you made $270k and only paid $89k in tax then you got a good deal.

You must be living in AB.

[highlander]

For 2022- my T4 was over 270,000. But I paid nearly 89,000 in income tax and that's with doing 20% (NRRSP/RRSP). For years, we've been saying that it's not WHAT we get paid......it's HOW we get paid.

If you made $270k and only paid $89k in tax then you got a good deal.

You must be living in AB.

The total deductions are actually well over 105K.....I had to look at my last paystub for 2022. In any case, I'm not in AB. Hopefully you got more out of my post then just that....lol

[Canadaflyer46]

The disappointment in this AIP comes from being told month after month ‘North American standard contract’ ‘we’re the tip of the spear’ ‘we WILL make them’ etc etc.
Some gains in this no doubt, but it’s no where close to ‘bridging the gap’ as the MEC kept promising. I think I along with many others would be keen to know why the sudden U-turn on the central theme of their manifesto.
It appears we had to use all our bargaining chips to recapture Swoop. Then there’s a lot of items we had before and have now negotiated back.
Obviously it’s a big improvement on CA1, and if the scope language is water tight then it’ll likely get voted in.
We couldn’t even get premium seat DHs? Or US per diems?
Pointless to vote it down now, we gave away the most leverage we’ll ever have.

[Greasy Greaser]

So far, I like what I see with this AIP.

For those who aren't at WJ, I'd tell you that you probably don't have all the facts and I'm not sure why you think you're the voice of reason here. I don't really care what a pilot from another ALPA carrier.....or any carrier thinks.


Be safe out there.

I am pretty certain than 90% of the reason why other carrier pilots (mainly AC according to everyone I talk to there lol) want WestJet to get 'REAL GAINS and vote no to this' so they can go to their upper management and say why the number 2 low cost airline in Canada are marking more than legacy AC pilots. Not a bad way to do things, just funny.

Hopefully the CA has the language we desperately need here but sounds like my take home pay is going up 100%, real scope coming in, benefits...yada yada yada. And hopefully those vocal ones saying no already realize the Air Canada hiring portal is open right now.

[Nashbandicoot]

Long time lurker, first time poster in these WJ specific threads (i think).

I've been at WJ for just over 15 years. Long time commuter and a family man. I'll be the first to tell you that I don't consider myself contract savvy. I don't have other carriers contracts in my ipad and memorized on a whim. I don't have a screenshot of someone's pay stub from AC, Flair SW or Delta. I do have friends at these places and from time to time we talk.....but we never compare paystubs...... that's like taking a ruler out and measuring your ding dong with your friends ding dong......some things you just shouldn't do and someone is going to be disappointed.

So far, I like what I see with this AIP.

For those who aren't at WJ, I'd tell you that you probably don't have all the facts and I'm not sure why you think you're the voice of reason here. I don't really care what a pilot from another ALPA carrier.....or any carrier thinks.

What people forget is that we had surveys. The surveys helped guide the MEC/Negots as to what the priorities would be for this CA. Some of the key things these surveys told the MEC and Negotiations were that we wanted improved take home pay, scope and general lifestyle/work balance improvements. It's all fine and dandy to ask for a 30% raise or whatever you think you're worth....but I see very little relevance in that when you're taxed like crazy and your net take home barely increases as a result of it. For 2022- my T4 was over 270,000. But I paid nearly 89,000 in income tax and that's with doing 20% (NRRSP/RRSP). For years, we've been saying that it's not WHAT we get paid......it's HOW we get paid.

Next- I think the 2 page summary isn't being read correctly and it's missing a couple of things. If you're an outsider looking in, or maybe another WJ pilot who didn't hear the podcast, I would argue you're missing some things. Before the 2 page summary was released, they released a podcast for our pilots. The podcast helped summarize the events and the AIP and what to expect. From there, they later submitted the 2 page summary. If you didn't hear the podcast and then read the summary, I think you wouldn't have all of the facts or context. For example, the podcast talked about a pension...but it's missing in the summary....likewise the summary mentions an LOL similar to Jazz but wasn't mentioned in the podcast. There were things said in the podcast that were not said in the summary and vice versa. If you put the podcast and written summary together you get an even better understanding of what this AIP means.

None of us have seen the pay scales or the TA. I've heard many sections are much longer and more robust than the last CA. Without having the entire document, I don't know how one automatically jumps to the conclusion that it is dogshit. Is it a YES vote for me....... well overall I like what I see- I guess they have to prove me wrong. I have no problem voting NO if the documents lacks details and has lots of ambiguity.

I'm excited because, since we've been certified, we haven't had a actual contract we've VOTED for. This is a big deal for us.

A final thought- One thing I've learned in over 30 years of flying is that someone will always fly something bigger and faster than you. I've also learned in life that someone (doing the same job or not) will also make more money than you. There's nothing wrong with wanting the best or the most....(heck we all want that) but once you've reached the top.....then what? Is it really ever good enough for you? (sorry for the philosophical rant).

The MEC leaders and Negots- in my opinion, are probably the best ones under these circumstances -that we've had since we certified. We've had different MEC leadership and I think these guys and gals are top notch and I can't imagine anyone else in their place. We were/are still ready and so are they. They were prepared to lead us through a strike and they didn't waver in this. I have no reason to believe they would have taken a mediocre AIP. They delivered an AIP that they felt was a good deal for us. I trust them.

Be safe out there.

+1 well said

[Red1]

I will agree with the sentiment above, you need to see the whole doucment before voting "no". If you read every single North American contract the #1 item is always scope. Without scope you can be paid the best wages in the world, only to see them "swooped" away by an alter ego carrier. From what I understand WestJet pilots will now have scope language that rivals most American carriers. No other carrier in North America at this time faces the same scope issues that WestJet does, with Swoop and Sunwing. The fact that the NC was able to remove Swoop from the equation after one contract (took AC 2-3 contracts) and build a road map for the integration of Sunwing is a massive gain. The TA will begin to narrow the gap against the American carriers. Remember these carriers have had years to refine their contracts, and didn't have the same pressures of a low-cost carrier and a merger to deal with. This will fix the take home pay, and fix many of the annoying little language holes in the current contract. Lastly, you need to way the consequences of voting no. The MEC and the NC don't simply go back to the table and get a better deal. If past history tells us anything you get a new MEC, a new NC, surveys etc , and maybe 6-8 months later have another TA, which just as easily could be worse (See info on AC's rejected TA). If this was simply about wages, then a no vote has little risk (maybe you make a little more, maybe you make a little less). But this TA is about so much more than wages, its a hell of gamble when scope is on the line.