Negotiations

[hithere]

Everyone keeps talking about how the contract that we have until 2035 has neutered us. Ok so let’s say it expired in 2023 and we were currently in bargaining. We could threaten to walk if our salary demands weren’t met just like WestJet just did. But unlike 2011, we are a much smaller operation and there are many carriers that could cover our routes and carry our passengers if we walked. Not to mention our own mainline carrier which is basically doing this now- by upguaging the routes with A220 and reducing frequency, and the traveling public doesn’t even notice the difference- heck they even prefer the new larger aircraft.
The traveling public doesn’t even know who the hell “Jazz” is so I doubt we’d get the sort of media/public attention that WestJet did in their campaign.
In summary, this long term contract isn’t the albatross many are making it out to be. Jazz is easily and rather quickly replaceable, and AC probably regrets the fact that they are forced to keep us until 2035

[rudder]

Everyone keeps talking about how the contract that we have until 2035 has neutered us. Ok so let’s say it expired in 2023 and we were currently in bargaining. We could threaten to walk if our salary demands weren’t met just like WestJet just did. But unlike 2011, we are a much smaller operation and there are many carriers that could cover our routes and carry our passengers if we walked. Not to mention our own mainline carrier which is basically doing this now- by upguaging the routes with A220 and reducing frequency, and the traveling public doesn’t even notice the difference- heck they even prefer the new larger aircraft.
The traveling public doesn’t even know who the hell “Jazz” is so I doubt we’d get the sort of media/public attention that WestJet did in their campaign.
In summary, this long term contract isn’t the albatross many are making it out to be. Jazz is easily and rather quickly replaceable, and AC probably regrets the fact that they are forced to keep us until 2035

I could start to imagine Jazz as a 60-80 airplane operation. Perhaps not in 2023 or 2024, but somewhere out in the not too distant future. That would be 720-960 line pilot jobs. A core of 400-500 pilots that are Captain qualified. In house training resources (if possible). And majority of FO spots filled from initial training institutions. A 250 hour pilot does not have many options to leave until ATPL qualified (that would take a minimum of 2-3 years at Jazz).

No doubt that 2023 is a problem due to uncontrollable pilot attrition. But decision makers typically look further in to the future while doing strategic planning. AC ultimately will make the decision on its Express network needs and reflect them in its CHR CPA either current form or renegotiated.

A reinvigorated WJ pilot contract is not going to help the pilot attrition problem at Jazz. There are so many better opportunities in 2023 that provide both superior compensation and still lead to AC if that is the ultimate goal.

[truedude]

If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.

[Canadaflyer46]

If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.

People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.

[Ash Ketchum]

AC will absolutely have to respond by getting rid of flat pay or drastically raising it. Alot of recent new hires were Encore/WJ mainline/Swoop pilots and now this recruiting pipeline will dry up.

[truedude]

If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.

People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.

Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over. And people need to feed their families. And the flat pay does not work for that.

And Jazz will lay in ruins soon, and the summer sched along with it. It is over all because of short sighted, arrogant, stupidity at AC. At least I will have a front row seat to watch it all come crumbling down.

[canadian_aviator_4]

If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.

Jazz deserves it for creating such a negative work environment that has no recognition of employees and contracts.

[KenoraPilot]

Maybe AC or Chorus had him removed? Jazz hasn’t exactly been delivering the goods for the CPA lately with the pilot shortages going on at Jazz.

No, it was Steve’s choice to leave for personal reasons.

[CaptDukeNukem]

If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.

People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.

Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over. And people need to feed their families. And the flat pay does not work for that.

And Jazz will lay in ruins soon, and the summer sched along with it. It is over all because of short sighted, arrogant, stupidity at AC. At least I will have a front row seat to watch it all come crumbling down.

I’ll watch from a second row. But i agree it will be entertaining.

[Rowdy]

Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.

[airbussy]

Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.

Especially with YEG and YXX bases. Sure it's "Swoop" but now with the same pay uplift and better working conditions (let's be honest the AIP will pass)...

[airbussy]

AC will absolutely have to respond by getting rid of flat pay or drastically raising it. Alot of recent new hires were Encore/WJ mainline/Swoop pilots and now this recruiting pipeline will dry up.

AC is going to be in a tough spot. I am quite confident the MEC at AC will not just give the company "free" raises (yeah I know it sounds funny, but that's what it is... a free raise to fix their hiring problem). The MEC will 100% use this to leverage other gains in the contract.

That is of course if the new 1-6+ year FO pay rumour at WJ is true. If the numbers I've seen are true, they'll be making close to our 787 FO wages at year 5/6.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.

I thought it was spelled : “turonna”

[yhz41]

Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.

Weren't you at AC?

[Rowdy]

Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.

Weren't you at AC?

I was not and unless flat pay disappears and they magically allow base choice in initial, I never will be.

[Fanblade]

Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.

Weren't you at AC?

I was not and unless flat pay disappears and they magically allow base choice in initial, I never will be.

How much is a lack of a commuting policy impacting your decision?

I sound it out this way. Trauma. The M annunciated like an N. So TrauNa.

If you go there during a snowstorm you get TrauNatized

FOS and the 10 year deal were a result of a TrauNa Bond.

[joefo]

If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.

People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.

Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over.

What makes you think that?

[RoAF-Mig21]

...How much is a lack of a commuting policy impacting your decision?...

That's a great question that many more people need to ask it. No matter how our politicians or executives try to spin this, the fact is (and will remain) that Toronto and Vancouver are out of (financial) reach even for those who make well over six figures. Major cities in our countries have become unaffordable*** for the majority of Canadians.

People like myself and most of my airline colleagues can not simply afford to live there. Can we live there? YES, but we'd have no money for anything else and we'd have to live in shoebox apartments. That's just not possible, or worth it, for those of us with children. You can't raise two kids in a two bedroom condo. Add to that things like childcare, higher insurance rates and so on and you'll quickly realize that it's just impossible.

So what does that mean for the average pilot? It means that we have to live further and further away from our home base. Some commute by air, some by car, some by public transport, but this country's public transportation system is below that of a 2nd world commie country (I should know) and insanely expensive. One only needs to look at VIA Rail ticket prices and you'll notice that more often than not, it's more expensive to take a train than fly. A 3 hour trip by train should not be $100. That's mental. (And our politicians wonder why Canadians don't take public transport more often)

This leaves a lot of us, like myself, forced to drive back and forth to work. Most of the guys and gals I fly with have a commute that's longer than 1.5 hours by car, sometimes as far as 4. With that being said, commuters are forced to stay in their positions to be able to bid 3/4 day pairings. That results in us having to drive to work 4 - 5 times a month. If we did single days, we'd have to drive up to 16 to 18 days a month. You can quickly see how that is just impossible to do, both from a financial aspect and fatigue factor. I won't even mention the fact that we can't be on reserve... EVER.

So, we're stuck between a rock and hard place. Some have found "creative" ways like getting a crashpad, staying with family, side girlfriends etc. That's not for everyone. I would personally rather quit flying than having to share a room with two other people. Yes, my choices have consequences and I accept them.

So what's this long rambling that I'm going on about? Airlines in Canada need to look not only at financial compensation, but also offering working conditions that reflect the fact that most of its pilots will have to commute at one point or another.

Just my two cents...

*** My definition of "affordable is this: Average family, with average income spending 33% of their take home pay on their mortgage & housing costs (property tax, etc.) and paying it off in 25 years.

[Fanblade]

...How much is a lack of a commuting policy impacting your decision?...

That's a great question that many more people need to ask it. No matter how our politicians or executives try to spin this, the fact is (and will remain) that Toronto and Vancouver are out of (financial) reach even for those who make well over six figures. Major cities in our countries have become unaffordable*** for the majority of Canadians.

People like myself and most of my airline colleagues can not simply afford to live there. Can we live there? YES, but we'd have no money for anything else and we'd have to live in shoebox apartments. That's just not possible, or worth it, for those of us with children. You can't raise two kids in a two bedroom condo. Add to that things like childcare, higher insurance rates and so on and you'll quickly realize that it's just impossible.

So what does that mean for the average pilot? It means that we have to live further and further away from our home base. Some commute by air, some by car, some by public transport, but this country's public transportation system is below that of a 2nd world commie country (I should know) and insanely expensive. One only needs to look at VIA Rail ticket prices and you'll notice that more often than not, it's more expensive to take a train than fly. A 3 hour trip by train should not be $100. That's mental. (And our politicians wonder why Canadians don't take public transport more often)

This leaves a lot of us, like myself, forced to drive back and forth to work. Most of the guys and gals I fly with have a commute that's longer than 1.5 hours by car, sometimes as far as 4. With that being said, commuters are forced to stay in their positions to be able to bid 3/4 day pairings. That results in us having to drive to work 4 - 5 times a month. If we did single days, we'd have to drive up to 16 to 18 days a month. You can quickly see how that is just impossible to do, both from a financial aspect and fatigue factor. I won't even mention the fact that we can't be on reserve... EVER.

So, we're stuck between a rock and hard place. Some have found "creative" ways like getting a crashpad, staying with family, side girlfriends etc. That's not for everyone. I would personally rather quit flying than having to share a room with two other people. Yes, my choices have consequences and I accept them.

So what's this long rambling that I'm going on about? Airlines in Canada need to look not only at financial compensation, but also offering working conditions that reflect the fact that most of its pilots will have to commute at one point or another.

Just my two cents...

*** My definition of "affordable is this: Average family, with average income spending 33% of their take home pay on their mortgage & housing costs (property tax, etc.) and paying it off in 25 years.

I think that was a great ramble.

To make it worse Air Canada is stuck in the past when it comes to commuting. There is no policy at all. It’s true. A new hire commuting that doesn’t make it to work has their employment at risk. If you are beyond probation there is still the risk of disciplinary action. And yes it happens.

I don’t even think management even sees this as an issue for them. Yet it is. If there is a supply shortage you want to correct and smooth out any supply chain issues.

But it is like talking to a wall

[kiaszceski]

They are Air Canada. Who cares about commuting policy when people are ALL willing to go to AC and pay for a crashpad with the hope of flying the A360?

Until there's an accident caused by fatigue nothing will change.

[truedude]

People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.

Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over.

What makes you think that?

Math

[flyingcanuck]

Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over.

What makes you think that?

Math

they want another ~1300 pilots by the end of next year, so what math you doing?

[rudder]

What makes you think that?

Math

they want another ~1300 pilots by the end of next year, so what math you doing?

6000 by summer 2025, correct?

[truedude]

Math

they want another ~1300 pilots by the end of next year, so what math you doing?

6000 by summer 2025, correct?

Yes, and the ratio of Captains to FOs about 60/40. So do the math. If you aren't hired in the next 6 to 12 months, it will be years before you see an upgrade, and that is if there is no major recession.

[rudder]

they want another ~1300 pilots by the end of next year, so what math you doing?

6000 by summer 2025, correct?

Yes, and the ratio of Captains to FOs about 60/40. So do the math. If you aren't hired in the next 6 to 12 months, it will be years before you see an upgrade, and that is if there is no major recession.

Just trivia but 60/40 is not the case at AC. As a percentage of total positions, CA are less than 50% (44.6% to be exact).