New payscale

[Malfunction]

New payscale out yet?

[airbussy]

Kinda concerning that it's been what, 4-5 days and still no payrates?

[RockSalty]

Whats concerning about it? They're taking their time to make sure there's no ambiguous language in the contract before getting it out to us. I'd rather it take a few days than have them rush it out and leave something in there that works in the companys favour.

[airbussy]

It's the thing most people are waiting to see. AA, United, Delta all released their wages the day they got an agreement. Just saying it seems odd it's taking this long to get payscales. They could release them while still finishing up the rest of the TA language.

I'm probably reading too much into it.

[JBI]

It's the thing most people are waiting to see. AA, United, Delta all released their wages the day they got an agreement. Just saying it seems odd it's taking this long to get payscales. They could release them while still finishing up the rest of the TA language.

I'm probably reading too much into it.

Gotta remember that AA, United, Delta were not facing a strike within an hour of reaching the agreement in principle. They had plenty of time to get all the items sorted before announcing to the pilots that they had agreements. In this situation, the clock deadline with everyone watching meant that the Term Sheet was agreed to, and now everyone is working behind the scenes to get the TA finalized.

[Aspiredtofly]

What if that means WJ pilots are going to work for free

[Malfunction]

Trying to polish a turd I'm guessing. Takes awhile

[JBI]

Trying to polish a turd I'm guessing. Takes awhile

Drafted a lot of contracts in your life have you?

[Bede]

It's the thing most people are waiting to see. AA, United, Delta all released their wages the day they got an agreement. Just saying it seems odd it's taking this long to get payscales. They could release them while still finishing up the rest of the TA language.

I'm probably reading too much into it.

Why is it taking so long to take off? Why aren’t we moving. The other airline is already half way there. We should be cleared for takeoff by now. What’s taking so long?

[airbussy]

Exactly!

[rudder]

Exactly!

Having done my fair share of collective bargaining and resulting TA roadshows, I can describe the experience as follows:

Back in the days of paper TA’s being handed out - no matter how comprehensive or detailed all of the amendments were to the CBA - the sound in the room would be “flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip …….. silence”.

Every pilot in the room just flipped to page 17 which was the wage page.

Such is the nature of pilots. 80% will vote on how the wage package affects them individually. Most of the rest is just a detail but to the bargaining committee it represents months of their work and ultimately all matters, just not at a mortgage loan appointment.

Good luck to the WJ pilots.

[TFTMB heavy]

Exactly!

Having done my fair share of collective bargaining and resulting TA roadshows, I can describe the experience as follows:

Back in the days of paper TA’s being handed out - no matter how comprehensive or detailed all of the amendments were to the CBA - the sound in the room would be “flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip …….. silence”.

Every pilot in the room just flipped to page 17 which was the wage page.

Such is the nature of pilots. 80% will vote on how the wage package affects them individually. Most of the rest is just a detail but to the bargaining committee it represents months of their work and ultimately all matters, just not at a mortgage loan appointment.

Good luck to the WJ pilots.

Sums it up to a T. Most forget the collective part of the agreement.

[airbussy]

Exactly!

Having done my fair share of collective bargaining and resulting TA roadshows, I can describe the experience as follows:

Back in the days of paper TA’s being handed out - no matter how comprehensive or detailed all of the amendments were to the CBA - the sound in the room would be “flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip …….. silence”.

Every pilot in the room just flipped to page 17 which was the wage page.

Such is the nature of pilots. 80% will vote on how the wage package affects them individually. Most of the rest is just a detail but to the bargaining committee it represents months of their work and ultimately all matters, just not at a mortgage loan appointment.

Good luck to the WJ pilots.

I would be lying if I didn't say the only reason I want to see the wages, is to know if AC is going to have to pull out their wallet if this thing passes. And that effects me and 4700 other pilots at AC. So hoping for the best when it comes to final numbers released.

[digits_]

It's the thing most people are waiting to see. AA, United, Delta all released their wages the day they got an agreement. Just saying it seems odd it's taking this long to get payscales. They could release them while still finishing up the rest of the TA language.

I'm probably reading too much into it.

Why is it taking so long to take off? Why aren’t we moving. The other airline is already half way there. We should be cleared for takeoff by now. What’s taking so long?

And to dig a bit deeper into that analogy: how often has a delay in take off every worked out favorably for the pax on board? How often have pax been given the complete and full reason for a delay in take off? How often has the truth been slightly bent to cover up pilot or company's faults?

[Malfunction]

Pay scale

[airbussy]

Gave up striking at the 11th hour for this.

Terrible PCP. Those FO rates are at least. $20-$25/hr short of anywhere close to industry standard PCP.

[truedude]

Gave up striking at the 11th hour for this.

Terrible PCP. Those FO rates are at least. $20-$25/hr short of anywhere close to industry standard PCP.

I'd like to point you to Air Canada's disgusting four year flat pay. That is by far one of the most disgusting things in this industry. It is sickening that it was ever considered okay to do that.

[Canadaflyer46]

787 rates.
All our bargaining chips went to getting rid of Swoop. Doesn’t seem like there was anything leftover to get close to the US rates the union kept promising.

[RockSalty]

Gave up striking at the 11th hour for this.

Terrible PCP. Those FO rates are at least. $20-$25/hr short of anywhere close to industry standard PCP.

Pay rates are only a part of the contract. I'll take the improvements to scope and everything else that we secured over a few dollars more an hour.

This TA is 264 pages long, our current agreement is 141.

[Anonymouse]

Gave up striking at the 11th hour for this.

Terrible PCP. Those FO rates are at least. $20-$25/hr short of anywhere close to industry standard PCP.

Pay rates are only a part of the contract. I'll take the improvements to scope and everything else that we secured over a few dollars more an hour.

This TA is 264 pages long, our current agreement is 141.

Major pilot shortage and hours from a strike. You should have had scope AND a significant pay increase, its not an either/or situation.

[airbussy]

Gave up striking at the 11th hour for this.

Terrible PCP. Those FO rates are at least. $20-$25/hr short of anywhere close to industry standard PCP.

I'd like to point you to Air Canada's disgusting four year flat pay. That is by far one of the most disgusting things in this industry. It is sickening that it was ever considered okay to do that.

Agreed. But you should be aiming higher than trying to out do a ten year old contract.

[Blackdog0301]

Gave up striking at the 11th hour for this.

Terrible PCP. Those FO rates are at least. $20-$25/hr short of anywhere close to industry standard PCP.

Pay rates are only a part of the contract. I'll take the improvements to scope and everything else that we secured over a few dollars more an hour.

This TA is 264 pages long, our current agreement is 141.

Major pilot shortage and hours from a strike. You should have had scope AND a significant pay increase, its not an either/or situation.

Clearly you haven't worked a day in the shoes of a WestJet pilot. Because this TA has huge improvements and only WestJet pilots can see the gains in this contract. Everyone else looks at only the wages and are disappointed that it can't be used as strong leverage to improve their own pay.

[airbussy]

What happened to being "the tip of the spear"? That's quite literally the message WestJet ALPA was preaching.

[RockSalty]

Speaking to some American friends of mine, quite a few things that are in this TA are on par with what you'd expect down there.

I'm sorry our hourly rates aren't higher so that you folks can use them in your own negotiations, and frankly I'm not super thrilled with them either, but I know I'm not the only one at WestJet that's capable of looking past them to see the other improvements we've gained.

[airbussy]

I'm happy for you guys secured scope and other good things that are standard.

I just find it pretty sad that after months of this whole leading the pack, North American standard rally cries, news articles, picketing etc. this is what the rates end up being. Yes they're better than AC. But that's not hard to do since AC has been stuck in a rediculous ten year deal and with terrible representation for even longer.

I imagine this is going to pass.