Negotiations

[truedude]

6000 by summer 2025, correct?

Yes, and the ratio of Captains to FOs about 60/40. So do the math. If you aren't hired in the next 6 to 12 months, it will be years before you see an upgrade, and that is if there is no major recession.

Just trivia but 60/40 is not the case at AC. As a percentage of total positions, CA are less than 50% (44.6% to be exact).

That's unusual given Captains have more vacation and tend to book off more. But either way, my position on the quick upgrade days nearing an end stands

[rudder]

Yes, and the ratio of Captains to FOs about 60/40. So do the math. If you aren't hired in the next 6 to 12 months, it will be years before you see an upgrade, and that is if there is no major recession.

Just trivia but 60/40 is not the case at AC. As a percentage of total positions, CA are less than 50% (44.6% to be exact).

That's unusual given Captains have more vacation and tend to book off more. But either way, my position on the quick upgrade days nearing an end stands

The ratio results from the fact that AC uses WB FO’s as augment pilots and that AC has also reinstated the WB RP position.

Based on the bidding demographic in the last bid, a pilot hired by AC TODAY will be able to hold a bottom 2% NB CA award sometime in late 2025 or early 2026. That of course presumes that hundreds of more senior pilots continue to avoid bidding NB CA (including the 767F which is assigned to the NB CA equipment grouping).

Getting hired sooner in a wave rather than later will always make a difference in career progression at a legacy carrier.

More trivia - a pilot hired in the spring of 2015 will be in the top third of the seniority list by 2026. It is entirely possible that junior WB CA will be available at 12 years of seniority. By 2026 that will probably be a $400k/yr position.

It is a numbers game and always has been.

[truedude]

Just trivia but 60/40 is not the case at AC. As a percentage of total positions, CA are less than 50% (44.6% to be exact).

That's unusual given Captains have more vacation and tend to book off more. But either way, my position on the quick upgrade days nearing an end stands

The ratio results from the fact that AC uses WB FO’s as augment pilots and that AC has also reinstated the WB RP position.

Based on the bidding demographic in the last bid, a pilot hired by AC TODAY will be able to hold a bottom 2% NB CA award sometime in late 2025 or early 2026. That of course presumes that hundreds of more senior pilots continue to avoid bidding NB CA (including the 767F which is assigned to the NB CA equipment grouping).

Getting hired sooner in a wave rather than later will always make a difference in career progression at a legacy carrier.

More trivia - a pilot hired in the spring of 2015 will be in the top third of the seniority list by 2026. It is entirely possible that junior WB CA will be available at 12 years of seniority.

It is a numbers game and always has been.

Yes, I did fail to take into account the augmented crews. And you have to take into account a lot of people not bidding captain positions foe lifestyle reasons, which will change as they move up in seniority.

[airbussy]

If the RP position goes away for good which something I've heard this MEC talk about, expect the NB CA to go even more Jr. There will be a lot of people bidding into a WB FO position if the list essentially doubles as their relative seniority and lifestyle will improve drastically. And many parking themselves there for the next long while (myself included).

[rudder]

If the RP position goes away for good which something I've heard this MEC talk about, expect the NB CA to go even more Jr. There will be a lot of people bidding into a WB FO position if the list essentially doubles as their relative seniority and lifestyle will improve drastically. And many parking themselves there for the next long while (myself included).

And AC pilots could also push for certain augment duty to require 2 CA.

Lots could change in staffing depending on final outcome in bargaining in 2023/2024.

[airbussy]

If the RP position goes away for good which something I've heard this MEC talk about, expect the NB CA to go even more Jr. There will be a lot of people bidding into a WB FO position if the list essentially doubles as their relative seniority and lifestyle will improve drastically. And many parking themselves there for the next long while (myself included).

And AC pilots could also push for certain augment duty to require 2 CA.

Lots could change in staffing depending on final outcome in bargaining in 2023/2024.

I think it is starting to work in that direction. We finally have language around ULR with 2CA 2FO. Next step is getting similar augmenting to the American carriers such as 1CA 2FO, 2CA 1FO, 2CA, 2FO etc.

There should never be more than 2FOs on a crew (and no RPs).

[Rowdy]

Weren't you at AC?

I was not and unless flat pay disappears and they magically allow base choice in initial, I never will be.

How much is a lack of a commuting policy impacting your decision?

I sound it out this way. Trauma. The M annunciated like an N. So TrauNa.

If you go there during a snowstorm you get TrauNatized

FOS and the 10 year deal were a result of a TrauNa Bond.

Its not about commuting policy. I simply won't commute by air. The +1.5hr drive is stressful enough as is most days. Its also a massive waste of my time. Flat pay and the current FO pay(at AC) preclude me from buying a home anywhere closer. I was lucky enough to get into the market where I am when I did. Now with mortgage rates where they are and inflation far above what our contract covers, even the Jazz CA pay is not cutting it either. Moving to YYZ just isn't in the cards for me for a myriad of reasons. I would say most of the YVR and YYC jazz pilots hired post 2015 are in the same mindset.

They made it even easier to look elsewhere when they took away pass travel for the first 6 months again. Not that it's worth much these days anyways with the loads, cancellations and everything else.. Probably just another negotiating tool, but still.

I highly doubt AC will ever pay for a commute (time + flight costs) Or guarantee base in initial. So it's A No from me.

I WAS happy at Jazz and it WAS a great place. Its really disheartening to watch it fall apart as a result of ACs tactics. I would say the bulk of us hired post 2015 are looking elsewhere and outside of the AC umbrella.

[Inverted2]

I was not and unless flat pay disappears and they magically allow base choice in initial, I never will be.

How much is a lack of a commuting policy impacting your decision?

I sound it out this way. Trauma. The M annunciated like an N. So TrauNa.

If you go there during a snowstorm you get TrauNatized

FOS and the 10 year deal were a result of a TrauNa Bond.

Its not about commuting policy. I simply won't commute by air. The +1.5hr drive is stressful enough as is most days. Its also a massive waste of my time. Flat pay and the current FO pay(at AC) preclude me from buying a home anywhere closer. I was lucky enough to get into the market where I am when I did. Now with mortgage rates where they are and inflation far above what our contract covers, even the Jazz CA pay is not cutting it either. Moving to YYZ just isn't in the cards for me for a myriad of reasons. I would say most of the YVR and YYC jazz pilots hired post 2015 are in the same mindset.

They made it even easier to look elsewhere when they took away pass travel for the first 6 months again. Not that it's worth much these days anyways with the loads, cancellations and everything else.. Probably just another negotiating tool, but still.

I highly doubt AC will ever pay for a commute (time + flight costs) Or guarantee base in initial. So it's A No from me.

I WAS happy at Jazz and it WAS a great place. Its really disheartening to watch it fall apart as a result of ACs tactics. I would say the bulk of us hired post 2015 are looking elsewhere and outside of the AC umbrella.

It’s truly sad what Jazz has become. Either they will up the pay to an appropriate level or they will continue to lose pilots and park airplanes. It’s up to AC. They call the shots.

[Fanblade]

An AC internal memo just came out about even more winter cancellations out of YYC.

Reason given for the second straight year. Not enough regional pilot hours.

It would appear AC views you guys as a watershed moment they want desperately to avoid. They do not want to see what happened in the US happen here with wages and are willing to endure some pain to avoid it.

I wonder if the WJ contract will start to make them realize it’s too late. The dam has burst. They can’t avoid it.

The choice is endure pain now and still pay OR just pay and avoid the pain. But door number three where they thought they could endure some pain and keep everyones wages low is not going to pan out.

At some point someone will flip the switch and accept reality.

Planning for Summer 2024 is fast approaching.

[truedude]

An AC internal memo just came out about even more winter cancellations out of YYC.

Reason given for the second straight year. Not enough regional pilot hours.

It would appear AC views you guys as a watershed moment they want desperately to avoid. They do not want to see what happened in the US happen here with wages and are willing to endure some pain to avoid it.

I wonder if the WJ contract will start to make them realize it’s too late. The dam has burst. They can’t avoid it.

The choice is endure pain now and still pay OR just pay and avoid the pain. But door number three where they thought they could endure some pain and keep everyones wages low is not going to pan out.

At some point someone will flip the switch and accept reality.

Planning for Summer 2024 is fast approaching.

I really look forward to finding out one day what moron was in charge of making these decisions...

As I watch all this play out, I keep getting reminded of this quote: "I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort." Said by the captain of the Titanic.

I find it amusing that they are worried about winter, when their summer schedule is about to lay in ruins. It is like they are working with out of date information. The agents tell us about all the flights that had been planned for this summer, but have since been scrapped because we don't have the crew. It is like the last days in the bunker as orders were being sent to units that no longer existed.

I will give our Union credit at Jazz: they told them in October this problem will be cheaper to fix in advance, and becomes exponentially more expensive to fix the longer you wait. It is cheaper to keep people on property, than attract new people.

And flat pay could have been dealt with proactively last fall at AC. But after the failure of the MOA at AC, did the VP of Flight Ops regroup? Nope, he went into ground schools and ranted like a lunatic.

It is just opinion, but I believe the main issue is the VP of Flight Ops refusing to accept the reality of the situation, and trying to play the game using 40 years old thinking.

They will have planes parked at Jazz by the fall, and instead of AC deploying 220's on money making routes, they will be flying them YVR to YLW. By next summer their regional network will be a shell of what it once was. And I bet they still don't comprehend the severity of their situation.

Just painful to watch the ignorance and stupidity to play out. And why, because they just can't accept that they might need to pay pilots more.

[Malfunction]

An AC internal memo just came out about even more winter cancellations out of YYC.

Reason given for the second straight year. Not enough regional pilot hours.

It would appear AC views you guys as a watershed moment they want desperately to avoid. They do not want to see what happened in the US happen here with wages and are willing to endure some pain to avoid it.

I wonder if the WJ contract will start to make them realize it’s too late. The dam has burst. They can’t avoid it.

The choice is endure pain now and still pay OR just pay and avoid the pain. But door number three where they thought they could endure some pain and keep everyones wages low is not going to pan out.

At some point someone will flip the switch and accept reality.

Planning for Summer 2024 is fast approaching.

I really look forward to finding out one day what moron was in charge of making these decisions...

As I watch all this play out, I keep getting reminded of this quote: "I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort." Said by the captain of the Titanic.

I find it amusing that they are worried about winter, when their summer schedule is about to lay in ruins. It is like they are working with out of date information. The agents tell us about all the flights that had been planned for this summer, but have since been scrapped because we don't have the crew. It is like the last days in the bunker as orders were being sent to units that no longer existed.

I will give our Union credit at Jazz: they told them in October this problem will be cheaper to fix in advance, and becomes exponentially more expensive to fix the longer you wait. It is cheaper to keep people on property, than attract new people.

And flat pay could have been dealt with proactively last fall at AC. But after the failure of the MOA at AC, did the VP of Flight Ops regroup? Nope, he went into ground schools and ranted like a lunatic.

It is just opinion, but I believe the main issue is the VP of Flight Ops refusing to accept the reality of the situation, and trying to play the game using 40 years old thinking.

They will have planes parked at Jazz by the fall, and instead of AC deploying 220's on money making routes, they will be flying them YVR to YLW. By next summer their regional network will be a shell of what it once was. And I bet they still don't comprehend the severity of their situation.

Just painful to watch the ignorance and stupidity to play out. And why, because they just can't accept that they might need to pay pilots more.

100% true.

[airbussy]

And flat pay could have been dealt with proactively last fall at AC. But after the failure of the MOA at AC, did the VP of Flight Ops regroup? Nope, he went into ground schools and ranted like a lunatic.

It is just opinion, but I believe the main issue is the VP of Flight Ops refusing to accept the reality of the situation, and trying to play the game using 40 years old thinking.

The things I heard from friends in new hire classes blew my mind, complete lack of awareness.

Though all of this, my biggest question is; Where is the BOD?

[rudder]

And flat pay could have been dealt with proactively last fall at AC. But after the failure of the MOA at AC, did the VP of Flight Ops regroup? Nope, he went into ground schools and ranted like a lunatic.

It is just opinion, but I believe the main issue is the VP of Flight Ops refusing to accept the reality of the situation, and trying to play the game using 40 years old thinking.

The things I heard from friends in new hire classes blew my mind, complete lack of awareness.

Though all of this, my biggest question is; Where is the BOD?

One would have to think that the reality check will happen when the re-opener letter arrives.

That is just hours away.

[truedude]

And flat pay could have been dealt with proactively last fall at AC. But after the failure of the MOA at AC, did the VP of Flight Ops regroup? Nope, he went into ground schools and ranted like a lunatic.

It is just opinion, but I believe the main issue is the VP of Flight Ops refusing to accept the reality of the situation, and trying to play the game using 40 years old thinking.

The things I heard from friends in new hire classes blew my mind, complete lack of awareness.

Though all of this, my biggest question is; Where is the BOD?

One would have to think that the reality check will happen when the re-opener letter arrives.

That is just hours away.

Que the angry ground school rants by one VP of flight ops in 3... 2... 1...

[Fanblade]

I don't think the VP of Flight Ops actually has a tonne of pull when it comes to big decisions other than training. He has probably been told to get his pilots back in line.

The decisions that we are talking about come from above his pay grade. And the answer so far has clearly been no.

The problem has been that upper ACPA was out of touch with the membership. Flight Ops managements understanding of the membership came from those former ACPA leaders. To Flight Ops the change has been like a switch. It didn't have to be. It should have been obvious but they weren't paying attention.

Now they are trying to get their heads wrapped around what just happened. And so far they are not impressed

It will be people well above the VP of Flight Ops setting the company approach. I expect that approach to be unpleasant for the next year

[rudder]

I don't think the VP of Flight Ops actually has a tonne of pull when it comes to big decisions other than training.

The decisions that we are talking about come from above his pay grade. And the answer so far has clearly been no.

The problem has been that upper ACPA was out of touch with the membership. Flight Ops managements understanding of the membership came from those former ACPA leaders. To Flight Ops the change has been like a switch. It didn't have to be. It should have been obvious but they weren't paying attention.

Now they are trying to get their heads wrapped around what just happened. And so far they are not impressed

It will be people well above the VP of Flight Ops setting the company approach

What just happened was representational accountability. AC senior management was dealing with a union that had at its CEO position….. a former AC senior manager!

Now they will be dealing with a real pilot labour organization. It will be a very different relationship.

AC has a chance to set the tone. It can be mutual respect, acceptance of fact, and mutually beneficial cooperation based on real world comparators. Or it can be 100% adversarial.

It should be no surprise what bargaining proposals are coming from the ALPA represented AC pilots. And there won’t be any Wizard of Oz this time hiding behind the curtain allowing an end-run around legitimate bargaining.

Roll up your shirt sleeves and do the required work. There is no bargain basement deal to be had …. again. The AC pilots are going to achieve significant economic and lifestyle gains.

[superbilly24]

https://www.exchangeincomecorp.ca/wcm-d ... 065507.pdf

This can't be good for the Q400 operations on the east coast with Jazz. I didn't think another airline could operate Q400 for Air Canada Express with the current contract.

[a2btrail]

https://www.exchangeincomecorp.ca/wcm-d ... 065507.pdf

This can't be good for the Q400 operations on the east coast with Jazz. I didn't think another airline could operate Q400 for Air Canada Express with the current contract.

Correct. Jazz's service will be reduced as planned.

[rudder]

https://www.exchangeincomecorp.ca/wcm-d ... 065507.pdf

This can't be good for the Q400 operations on the east coast with Jazz. I didn't think another airline could operate Q400 for Air Canada Express with the current contract.

Correct. Jazz's service will be reduced as planned.

AC pilot scope (Article 1) does not specify how many Express operators AC can contract. It simply sets limits on the Express fleet and gauge.

It would be the CHR CPA that would contain any exclusively provisions. Seemingly, based on this announcement they either do not exist or have been or will be waived by CHR.

For those that were not around at the time, this has all of the appearance of GGN round 2. May even be Jazz operated (but AC controlled) Q400’s that are transferred to PAL.

Once again, obvious that AC has developed a mitigation plan to deal with the circumstance where Jazz/CHR cannot meet planned flying levels due to pilot staffing issues.

[truedude]

https://www.exchangeincomecorp.ca/wcm-d ... 065507.pdf

This can't be good for the Q400 operations on the east coast with Jazz. I didn't think another airline could operate Q400 for Air Canada Express with the current contract.

Correct. Jazz's service will be reduced as planned.

AC pilot scope (Article 1) does not specify how many Express operators AC can contract. It simply sets limits on the Express fleet and gauge.

It would be the CHR CPA that would contain any exclusively provisions. Seemingly, based on this announcement they either do not exist or have been or will be waived by CHR.

For those that were not around at the time, this has all of the appearance of GGN round 2. May even be Jazz operated (but AC controlled) Q400’s that are transferred to PAL.

Once again, obvious that AC has developed a mitigation plan to deal with the circumstance where Jazz/CHR cannot meet planned flying levels due to pilot staffing issues.

Watch people really start to leave now. And they still have to staff these airplanes. Not sure why they would have an easier time of it than us.