AIP is dogshit

[pacman007]

I have seen many of the US contracts. WestJet had to FIX scope and a plethora of other things! The US airlines have had mature contracts and all they have left to get is money. WestJet pilots will get paid when there is nothing else to get.

[Scubes76]

I will agree with the sentiment above, you need to see the whole doucment before voting "no". If you read every single North American contract the #1 item is always scope. Without scope you can be paid the best wages in the world, only to see them "swooped" away by an alter ego carrier. From what I understand WestJet pilots will now have scope language that rivals most American carriers. No other carrier in North America at this time faces the same scope issues that WestJet does, with Swoop and Sunwing. The fact that the NC was able to remove Swoop from the equation after one contract (took AC 2-3 contracts) and build a road map for the integration of Sunwing is a massive gain. The TA will begin to narrow the gap against the American carriers. Remember these carriers have had years to refine their contracts, and didn't have the same pressures of a low-cost carrier and a merger to deal with. This will fix the take home pay, and fix many of the annoying little language holes in the current contract. Lastly, you need to way the consequences of voting no. The MEC and the NC don't simply go back to the table and get a better deal. If past history tells us anything you get a new MEC, a new NC, surveys etc , and maybe 6-8 months later have another TA, which just as easily could be worse (See info on AC's rejected TA). If this was simply about wages, then a no vote has little risk (maybe you make a little more, maybe you make a little less). But this TA is about so much more than wages, its a hell of gamble when scope is on the line.

Please excuse my ignorance, long time lurker with a genuine interest in this whole scenario. Can someone please explain this whole term of "scope" and what is meant by this?

[Tbayer2021]

I will agree with the sentiment above, you need to see the whole doucment before voting "no". If you read every single North American contract the #1 item is always scope. Without scope you can be paid the best wages in the world, only to see them "swooped" away by an alter ego carrier. From what I understand WestJet pilots will now have scope language that rivals most American carriers. No other carrier in North America at this time faces the same scope issues that WestJet does, with Swoop and Sunwing. The fact that the NC was able to remove Swoop from the equation after one contract (took AC 2-3 contracts) and build a road map for the integration of Sunwing is a massive gain. The TA will begin to narrow the gap against the American carriers. Remember these carriers have had years to refine their contracts, and didn't have the same pressures of a low-cost carrier and a merger to deal with. This will fix the take home pay, and fix many of the annoying little language holes in the current contract. Lastly, you need to way the consequences of voting no. The MEC and the NC don't simply go back to the table and get a better deal. If past history tells us anything you get a new MEC, a new NC, surveys etc , and maybe 6-8 months later have another TA, which just as easily could be worse (See info on AC's rejected TA). If this was simply about wages, then a no vote has little risk (maybe you make a little more, maybe you make a little less). But this TA is about so much more than wages, its a hell of gamble when scope is on the line.

Please excuse my ignorance, long time lurker with a genuine interest in this whole scenario. Can someone please explain this whole term of "scope" and what is meant by this?

Scope is the scope of the operation, all the flying it does and future flying it may do. Having scope refers to the pilots at, in this case WestJet, essentially having the right to any flying the company does or may want to do. This is done to not only protect jobs, but to protect the quality of those jobs also. As the company is free to start another operation with cheaper labour if the pilots don't have "scope". Like WJ did when they started Swoop years ago.

WJ started Swoop and ultimately shifted more and more tails and flying to that operation. An operation that paid its pilots considerably less for the same flying they were doing under mainline conditions. So getting extremely high pay-rates without having scope isn't necessarily the best idea, since the company can just shift flying to a cheaper operation.

[Scubes76]

Ah, I see, yeah I can imagine pilots at WJ would not have been happy about Swoop starting out and hiring other pilots at a lesser wage. This makes more sense now, appreciate the reply!

[Tolip]

100% agree, this AIP is dog poop

Doest meet the moment, and by the end of its term WILL have pilots in the red again/taking losses to inflationary pressures. 15% raise almost exactly meets the ON PAPER inflation of the last few years (tho we all know true inflation is drastically higher then 15). Then the 3% year over year will NOT keep up with comming inflation and potential economic downturn. This AIP does not give a raise, and does not protect the pilots in a uncertain economic future. It does not meet the mandate..

And on a side note that I think is extremely confusing to all that are reading it. Is the new WSP changes. And with that here is some food for thought.

Pilots are getting a 15.5% "riase", however they have just come out and stated that the old WSP cash match program is now OVER. That program used to allow pilots at the end of each year to grow their over all wage by 20 plus percent year over year. And that would be CASH in hand!! And guaranteed.. now they will only be given 9.1% that can only be added into their TSFA or RRSP, which will also generate gains. However the big difference here is that the stock market is doing horribly now, the CASH MATCH program guaranteed up to 120% return on investment, I doubt with the rrsp\tsfa option that you will even get a 15% return o investment.. aswell with those funds being put in a rrsp\ tsfa they are locked up fairly tight, not CASH in HAND.. so basically what I'm saying here is that mo matter how the union spins this to try to make it sound positive. It's not. It is a MASSIVE loss, and the losses from loosing g the cash match program almost completely offset the 15.5% raise..

This is a bad bad offer. I hope WJ pilots follow the example set out by AC, and vote thos.down. look out side of your own individual situation, and ask your self if a 737 and 787 pilot deserves 73k salary for year 1-3.. and if your deadhead time is only worth 50%... or if giving swoop pilots a raise is worth loosing the best negotiating power we have ever had, AC is starting negotiations this summer. I for one would like to see a no vote to this AIP, and have AC and WJ together with alpa negotiate TOGETHER, for the first time in history! Take a second and Imagin what that could accomplish. Could be the real deal.

[maverick12]

100% agree, this AIP is dog poop

Doest meet the moment, and by the end of its term WILL have pilots in the red again/taking losses to inflationary pressures. 15% raise almost exactly meets the ON PAPER inflation of the last few years (tho we all know true inflation is drastically higher then 15). Then the 3% year over year will NOT keep up with comming inflation and potential economic downturn. This AIP does not give a raise, and does not protect the pilots in a uncertain economic future. It does not meet the mandate..

And on a side note that I think is extremely confusing to all that are reading it. Is the new WSP changes. And with that here is some food for thought.

Pilots are getting a 15.5% "riase", however they have just come out and stated that the old WSP cash match program is now OVER. That program used to allow pilots at the end of each year to grow their over all wage by 20 plus percent year over year. And that would be CASH in hand!! And guaranteed.. now they will only be given 9.1% that can only be added into their TSFA or RRSP, which will also generate gains. However the big difference here is that the stock market is doing horribly now, the CASH MATCH program guaranteed up to 120% return on investment, I doubt with the rrsp\tsfa option that you will even get a 15% return o investment.. aswell with those funds being put in a rrsp\ tsfa they are locked up fairly tight, not CASH in HAND.. so basically what I'm saying here is that mo matter how the union spins this to try to make it sound positive. It's not. It is a MASSIVE loss, and the losses from loosing g the cash match program almost completely offset the 15.5% raise..

This is a bad bad offer. I hope WJ pilots follow the example set out by AC, and vote thos.down. look out side of your own individual situation, and ask your self if a 737 and 787 pilot deserves 73k salary for year 1-3.. and if your deadhead time is only worth 50%... or if giving swoop pilots a raise is worth loosing the best negotiating power we have ever had, AC is starting negotiations this summer. I for one would like to see a no vote to this AIP, and have AC and WJ together with alpa negotiate TOGETHER, for the first time in history! Take a second and Imagin what that could accomplish. Could be the real deal.

Tell me you didn’t bother to understand the TA, without telling me you didn’t.
Pilots still get their WSP 20% in value but it’s now rerouted to maximize take home pay. The 15.5% raise is not just covering inflation over the past few years, the hourly rates increased by 2% year on year over he past few years as well. Is it the best increase? No, but it’s a lie to say that it’s a 15.5% increase to match inflation. It exceeds inflation.

[Tolip]

100% agree, this AIP is dog poop

Doest meet the moment, and by the end of its term WILL have pilots in the red again/taking losses to inflationary pressures. 15% raise almost exactly meets the ON PAPER inflation of the last few years (tho we all know true inflation is drastically higher then 15). Then the 3% year over year will NOT keep up with comming inflation and potential economic downturn. This AIP does not give a raise, and does not protect the pilots in a uncertain economic future. It does not meet the mandate..

And on a side note that I think is extremely confusing to all that are reading it. Is the new WSP changes. And with that here is some food for thought.

Pilots are getting a 15.5% "riase", however they have just come out and stated that the old WSP cash match program is now OVER. That program used to allow pilots at the end of each year to grow their over all wage by 20 plus percent year over year. And that would be CASH in hand!! And guaranteed.. now they will only be given 9.1% that can only be added into their TSFA or RRSP, which will also generate gains. However the big difference here is that the stock market is doing horribly now, the CASH MATCH program guaranteed up to 120% return on investment, I doubt with the rrsp\tsfa option that you will even get a 15% return o investment.. aswell with those funds being put in a rrsp\ tsfa they are locked up fairly tight, not CASH in HAND.. so basically what I'm saying here is that mo matter how the union spins this to try to make it sound positive. It's not. It is a MASSIVE loss, and the losses from loosing g the cash match program almost completely offset the 15.5% raise..

This is a bad bad offer. I hope WJ pilots follow the example set out by AC, and vote thos.down. look out side of your own individual situation, and ask your self if a 737 and 787 pilot deserves 73k salary for year 1-3.. and if your deadhead time is only worth 50%... or if giving swoop pilots a raise is worth loosing the best negotiating power we have ever had, AC is starting negotiations this summer. I for one would like to see a no vote to this AIP, and have AC and WJ together with alpa negotiate TOGETHER, for the first time in history! Take a second and Imagin what that could accomplish. Could be the real deal.

Tell me you didn’t bother to understand the TA, without telling me you didn’t.
Pilots still get their WSP 20% in value but it’s now rerouted to maximize take home pay. The 15.5% raise is not just covering inflation over the past few years, the hourly rates increased by 2% year on year over he past few years as well. Is it the best increase? No, but it’s a lie to say that it’s a 15.5% increase to match inflation. It exceeds inflation.

Respectfully, many people have calculated this out. And it ALMOST is exactly just an inflationary adjustment however true inflation is faaaaar higher then 15%, so in reality it's still a not a raise. It's a adjustment. And yes I know you can still add your own funds and finances into your WSP to reach a 20% contribution. However now that can ONLY be put into rrsp or tsfa, cash match is gone.. you will NEVER see a 120% guaranteed return on investment in rrsp or tsfa. Never. 15% max. And that difference in returns absolutely will offset ANY 15.5% raise. Really it's just moving money around to give the appearance of a raise from pay check to pay check. Meanwhile at year end pilots with not recieve their guaranteed 20% cash match. Instead it will be locked away in rrsp or tsfa earning meager meager returns

[digits_]

I must say after listening to the Vancouver podcast that the contract is not as horrible as it first seems. Maybe my earlier suspicious were unnecessary.

Might even have voted 'yes' if I were a WestJet pilot.

Also kudos to make that info publicly available.

[Tolip]

I must say after listening to the Vancouver podcast that the contract is not as horrible as it first seems. Maybe my earlier suspicious were unnecessary.

Might even have voted 'yes' if I were a WestJet pilot.

Also kudos to make that info publicly available.

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

[Chelsea Handler]

I must say after listening to the Vancouver podcast that the contract is not as horrible as it first seems. Maybe my earlier suspicious were unnecessary.

Might even have voted 'yes' if I were a WestJet pilot.

Also kudos to make that info publicly available.

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Of course, and they say things like “we could have got nothing!”

It’s a sales pitch. Maybe they are right though, this is the best we can get. Miles behind American pilot wages, because we are just Canadian pilots. Maybe it’s becoming more clear, there is such thing as being just a Canadian pilot. The only way to not be a just Canadian pilot is pack your bags and leave for a place that values you more than being just a Canadian. That goes for lots of jobs here for just Canadian folk. Lots of taxes, lots of inflation, lots of immigration, stagnant incomes and degradation of all our public systems.

[rudder]

So just to be clear:

Last year of CBA top scale NB CA will be approx $305 per credit hour ($453 overtime rate?).

Company will match pilot contribution up to 10% to a registered retirement plan (pilot contributions fully tax deductible at a marginal tax rate on average 50%).

All work belongs to WJ Seniority List pilots. One AOC.

Still have FLICA.

I wouldn’t call that a train wreck. I would call it the best deal in Canada circa 2023.

[daedalusx]

So just to be clear:

Last year of CBA top scale NB CA will be approx $305 per credit hour ($453 overtime rate?).

Company will match pilot contribution up to 10% to a registered retirement plan (pilot contributions fully tax deductible at a marginal tax rate on average 50%).

All work belongs to WJ Seniority List pilots. One AOC.

Still have FLICA.

I wouldn’t call that a train wreck. I would call it the best deal in Canada circa 2023.

For a few months. Then our brothers and sisters at AC going to get their pound of flesh. The current contract at AC is irrelevant as a comparison to this AIP.
A MeToo clause would have been a game changer. Imagine if Flair matched the Westjet increases and then WJ matching the AC increases ... But no, can’t have that. It’s Canadian aviation so we’re used to bending over with no courtesy reacharounds and we consider a 15% increase closing the gap on the North American “standard”.
Here’s a thought, how come the MEC didn’t unanimously vote in favour of this AIP ? How many voted against and what was their reasons ?
It’s okay. Now that the scope is captured, the “real gains” will happen for sure on the next negotiations in 4 years, unless there’s another recession, carbon reduction policy, armed conflict, black swan event, new open border immigration policy, etc etc. Then more excuses, concessions ... “But we’ll get em’ next time! You’ll see!”
Look at all the American carriers gains in 2022-2023, the time to make hay was now.

[Tolip]

So just to be clear:

Last year of CBA top scale NB CA will be approx $305 per credit hour ($453 overtime rate?).

Company will match pilot contribution up to 10% to a registered retirement plan (pilot contributions fully tax deductible at a marginal tax rate on average 50%).

All work belongs to WJ Seniority List pilots. One AOC.

Still have FLICA.

I wouldn’t call that a train wreck. I would call it the best deal in Canada circa 2023.

Its. Huge disserveice to everyone to be on here quoting the "top scales" of this AIP. The top earners have always done fine, and they will continue to do fine. But this does nothing for junior pilots, other then a bare minimum inflation adjustment. And remember that 10% match is only for a RRSP or TFSA, it will put zero additional dollars in a pilots hand year over year, it will be locked away earning very small gains. The Cash match program was the greatest part of the WSP program, that would give a guaranteed 20% raise to every pilot at the end of each year. That program is now gone. I cant stress that enough, I dont understand why that's not getting more attention.

Also, what do you guys think about a no vote to this AIP. And restarting negotiations this summer WITH AC all under the ALPA banner?

[daedalusx]

Also, what do you guys think about a no vote to this AIP. And restarting negotiations this summer WITH AC all under the ALPA banner?

Not a bad idea but wouldn’t there be a risk of Onex going to the feds to force a deal ?

[rudder]

Courtesy of the WJ pilots, the AC pilots are looking at a minimum 25% pay increase. They will ask for more - and may achieve that - but any third party that might become involved will see WJ+ as the floor, not the ceiling.

What the AC pilots need to do is clean up the multiple AOC/discounted pay rates issues. And then focus on lifestyle. AC pilots have always relied on CAR’s to determine their scheduling rules. That has to change to something that produces better pairings and better schedules for the majority, not the minority.

There is lots to be done at big red. But the WJ deal is a good start.

[Aeroncachump]

I must say after listening to the Vancouver podcast that the contract is not as horrible as it first seems. Maybe my earlier suspicious were unnecessary.

Might even have voted 'yes' if I were a WestJet pilot.

Also kudos to make that info publicly available.

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Interview? It was one presentation in a series of roadshows, put on by the MEC and negotiating committee. It highlights what's new to CA2, and changes from CA1, followed by a Q&A from members in attendance. I didn't sense any hype, and though I appreciate the explanations and clarity as to the why's and hows, my decision will not be made based on what was said up on that stage. My decision to vote yes or no will be based on my understanding of the TA document in its entirety.

[Tolip]

I must say after listening to the Vancouver podcast that the contract is not as horrible as it first seems. Maybe my earlier suspicious were unnecessary.

Might even have voted 'yes' if I were a WestJet pilot.

Also kudos to make that info publicly available.

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Interview? It was one presentation in a series of roadshows, put on by the MEC and negotiating committee. It highlights what's new to CA2, and changes from CA1, followed by a Q&A from members in attendance. I didn't sense any hype, and though I appreciate the explanations and clarity as to the why's and hows, my decision will not be made based on what was said up on that stage. My decision to vote yes or no will be based on my understanding of the TA document in its entirety.

I think your getting the roadshows and the podcasts confused. The podcast is a completely different platform set up on YouTube where they Interview MeC members about the AIP. And it is extremely biased, even the road shows are extremely biased from the things I have herd comming out from them. The union has accepted this deal and now they have to defend it and get it voted in. You have to calculate the wages your self, imagine what it will do to your pay check to loose the cash match programs and think about how much it will actually help WJ pilots to minimize to growth of swoop (remember, no one has actually said that swoop as an identity will close) and if that's worth it. I dont this goes nearly mbsr enough.

And if it get voted down, I know that if AC and WJ negotiate all under the same banner with ALPA at the same time, they could have the power to really change things.

[Tolip]

Also, what do you guys think about a no vote to this AIP. And restarting negotiations this summer WITH AC all under the ALPA banner?

Not a bad idea but wouldn’t there be a risk of Onex going to the feds to force a deal ?

Its been proven that we are not an essential service and that not allowing us to perform job action is unconstitutional..but all that aside, just because (in this senario) AC and WJ were to go into negotiations around the same time, this summer. Doesnt mean they would both perform job action at the same time (or at all)

[fish4life]

I think you are misunderstanding the pay
Previously
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in

Under the TA
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr
115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
Also when I asked a friend of mine at WJ he said they still have a non registered option other than the TFSA or RRSP

[Tolip]

I think you are misunderstanding the pay
Previously
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in

Under the TA
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr
115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
Also when I asked a friend of mine at WJ he said they still have a non registered option other than the TFSA or RRSP

The reason your math doesnt work, is because you are equating every percentage made to your WSP contribution to an equal percentage of earnings at year end. But that is NOT true, it is ONLY true in the case of the cash savings plan, which had as much as a 120% return on investment. And the Nom registered option you speak of is just another version of rrsp. Tbe Cash match program was AXED, and without it, this means that the 15.5% raise is actually a potential pay CUT.

Previous TA
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in (that's true, because at year end every percentage of the cash match program would be returned ( CASH IN HAND)

Under the AIP
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr ( that's true because it is a direct pay in hand cash raise)

115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
This is where you go wrong, because the reality is with rrsp and TSFA for every dollar that gets put in, you will AT MAXIMUM get a 15% return on that, you are assuming a 100% return like the cash match program. So with this AIP you are assuming the WSP will turn your wage from 115.5\hr to 139.11$/hr. That's a difference of 23.61$ per hour (as per your example) but again that's assuming a 100 % return, lets look at this if we use a 15% return, so I'll reduce your established earnings my 85%. 15% of the 23.61 % is 3.5$. Add that to your established 115.5 $ and you would get 119.9$ per hour.

LESS then the original wage of the TA. And again that is because with the cash match program it is 100% to 120% GARONTEED return. Where as in the stock market its 15 AT BEST not guaranteed.

Also in the old TA you would recieve the money cash in hand at year end. Essentially making your salary the 120$ per hour as mentioned above.

With the AIP your wage will actually really just be the 115.5$per hour because all gaines recieved thru the program will really only be assecable down the line as it will all be locked away and invested.

I hope that makes sence.

[ant_321]

I think you are misunderstanding the pay
Previously
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in

Under the TA
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr
115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
Also when I asked a friend of mine at WJ he said they still have a non registered option other than the TFSA or RRSP

The reason your math doesnt work, is because you are equating every percentage made to your WSP contribution to an equal percentage of earnings at year end. But that is NOT true, it is ONLY true in the case of the cash savings plan, which had as much as a 120% return on investment. And the Nom registered option you speak of is just another version of rrsp. Tbe Cash match program was AXED, and without it, this means that the 15.5% raise is actually a potential pay CUT.

Previous TA
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in (that's true, because at year end every percentage of the cash match program would be returned ( CASH IN HAND)

Under the AIP
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr ( that's true because it is a direct pay in hand cash raise)

115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
This is where you go wrong, because the reality is with rrsp and TSFA for every dollar that gets put in, you will AT MAXIMUM get a 15% return on that, you are assuming a 100% return like the cash match program. So with this AIP you are assuming the WSP will turn your wage from 115.5\hr to 139.11$/hr. That's a difference of 23.61$ per hour (as per your example) but again that's assuming a 100 % return, lets look at this if we use a 15% return, so I'll reduce your established earnings my 85%. 15% of the 23.61 % is 3.5$. Add that to your established 115.5 $ and you would get 119.9$ per hour.

LESS then the original wage of the TA. And again that is because with the cash match program it is 100% to 120% GARONTEED return. Where as in the stock market its 15 AT BEST not guaranteed.

Also in the old TA you would recieve the money cash in hand at year end. Essentially making your salary the 120$ per hour as mentioned above.

With the AIP your wage will actually really just be the 115.5$per hour because all gaines recieved thru the program will really only be assecable down the line as it will all be locked away and invested.

I hope that makes sence.

You are misunderstanding. I’m not going to spend 20 minutes writing a post to explain it to you because I’m not sure I could explain it very well. You should sit down with a union rep and get them to explain it to you.

[Tolip]

I think you are misunderstanding the pay
Previously
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in

Under the TA
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr
115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
Also when I asked a friend of mine at WJ he said they still have a non registered option other than the TFSA or RRSP

The reason your math doesnt work, is because you are equating every percentage made to your WSP contribution to an equal percentage of earnings at year end. But that is NOT true, it is ONLY true in the case of the cash savings plan, which had as much as a 120% return on investment. And the Nom registered option you speak of is just another version of rrsp. Tbe Cash match program was AXED, and without it, this means that the 15.5% raise is actually a potential pay CUT.

Previous TA
$100/hr *120% WSP= $120/hr all in (that's true, because at year end every percentage of the cash match program would be returned ( CASH IN HAND)

Under the AIP
$100/hr * 115.5% = 115.50 /hr ( that's true because it is a direct pay in hand cash raise)

115.50 * 109.1% = 126.47/hr
126.47/hr * 110% WSP = $139.11/hr all in
This is where you go wrong, because the reality is with rrsp and TSFA for every dollar that gets put in, you will AT MAXIMUM get a 15% return on that, you are assuming a 100% return like the cash match program. So with this AIP you are assuming the WSP will turn your wage from 115.5\hr to 139.11$/hr. That's a difference of 23.61$ per hour (as per your example) but again that's assuming a 100 % return, lets look at this if we use a 15% return, so I'll reduce your established earnings my 85%. 15% of the 23.61 % is 3.5$. Add that to your established 115.5 $ and you would get 119.9$ per hour.

LESS then the original wage of the TA. And again that is because with the cash match program it is 100% to 120% GARONTEED return. Where as in the stock market its 15 AT BEST not guaranteed.

Also in the old TA you would recieve the money cash in hand at year end. Essentially making your salary the 120$ per hour as mentioned above.

With the AIP your wage will actually really just be the 115.5$per hour because all gaines recieved thru the program will really only be assecable down the line as it will all be locked away and invested.

I hope that makes sence.

You are misunderstanding. I’m not going to spend 20 minutes writing a post to explain it to you because I’m not sure I could explain it very well. You should sit down with a union rep and get them to explain it to you.

This is a very realistic idea of how it could all breakdown, the reason why we haven't seen anyone from the union talk more about this or break it down for us during the Roadshows or on the Podcasts is because they KNOW that the answer is NOT favorable. You may recieve more then 15% return on investment with this new plan, and down the line it may equate to a positive sum. But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program. And the 15.5 % "raise" then redistributes the money from year end onto each month by months pay check and also removes the pilots need to give up portions of his own pay check month over month into the WSP. All of this will give the Illusion of a pay raise on a month to month basis. But it comes with the loss of the guaranteed 20% cash match at the year end. It's a BAD deal. I'm not saying that it wont be a raise for pilots, but it won't be a 15.5% raise as it's being advertise. Not really, not with the loss of the Cash match program. I really think WJ pilots need to think alittle more about how this loss of program effects them

[Bede]

But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program.

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

[fish4life]

Between spelling errors and financial comprehension I think we found a Swoop captain

[Aeroncachump]

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Interview? It was one presentation in a series of roadshows, put on by the MEC and negotiating committee. It highlights what's new to CA2, and changes from CA1, followed by a Q&A from members in attendance. I didn't sense any hype, and though I appreciate the explanations and clarity as to the why's and hows, my decision will not be made based on what was said up on that stage. My decision to vote yes or no will be based on my understanding of the TA document in its entirety.

I think your getting the roadshows and the podcasts confused. The podcast is a completely different platform set up on YouTube where they Interview MeC members about the AIP. And it is extremely biased, even the road shows are extremely biased from the things I have herd comming out from them. The union has accepted this deal and now they have to defend it and get it voted in. You have to calculate the wages your self, imagine what it will do to your pay check to loose the cash match programs and think about how much it will actually help WJ pilots to minimize to growth of swoop (remember, no one has actually said that swoop as an identity will close) and if that's worth it. I dont this goes nearly mbsr enough.

And if it get voted down, I know that if AC and WJ negotiate all under the same banner with ALPA at the same time, they could have the power to really change things.

I've watched those podcasts aswell, on thing to keep in mind while watching them is the STRONGLY biased opinions of those that are interviewed. They only interview people that are directly involved in the negotiations, who. Because they accepted this AIP, are now laser focused on hyping it up and getting it voted through. If you listen close you can hear the bias, they never say anything negative about the contract. And put an overly positive spin on thing that do not deserve it.

Interview? It was one presentation in a series of roadshows, put on by the MEC and negotiating committee. It highlights what's new to CA2, and changes from CA1, followed by a Q&A from members in attendance. I didn't sense any hype, and though I appreciate the explanations and clarity as to the why's and hows, my decision will not be made based on what was said up on that stage. My decision to vote yes or no will be based on my understanding of the TA document in its entirety.

I think your getting the roadshows and the podcasts confused. The podcast is a completely different platform set up on YouTube where they Interview MeC members about the AIP. And it is extremely biased, even the road shows are extremely biased from the things I have herd comming out from them. The union has accepted this deal and now they have to defend it and get it voted in. You have to calculate the wages your self, imagine what it will do to your pay check to loose the cash match programs and think about how much it will actually help WJ pilots to minimize to growth of swoop (remember, no one has actually said that swoop as an identity will close) and if that's worth it. I dont this goes nearly mbsr enough.

And if it get voted down, I know that if AC and WJ negotiate all under the same banner with ALPA at the same time, they could have the power to really change things.

Fair enough. I don't listen to the podcasts, and I don't tune in for the pilot or the all company calls. And when Bernie was on TV, I didn't take anything he said as anything more than the posturing and rhetoric it was meant to be during a tense negotiation. If anyone is basing the next 4 years of their career on the above, and not what is written in black and white, they are doing themselves and their coworkers a disservice.

This TA by the way, falls directly inline with the results of the UNH survey data: job security and career progression (scope), fix take home pay, QOL (scheduling).