Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

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rigpiggy
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Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by rigpiggy »

Heard that a 412 severed a bambi bucket 20' below another helicopter in the northern Alberta fires. Why the fudgenuts is the province not requiring ADS-B on all of these aircraft. it is only 1000$ + a cigarette charger and a suction cup antenna. I Went by the airport talked to the crews only one plane has tcas FFS. Numerous near misses crews are now working beyond cars fdtl as the province asked the feds for exemptions.

Stay safe out there
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Dias
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by Dias »

rigpiggy wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 12:44 pm Heard that a 412 severed a bambi bucket 20' below another helicopter in the northern Alberta fires. Why the fudgenuts is the province not requiring ADS-B on all of these aircraft. it is only 1000$ + a cigarette charger and a suction cup antenna. I Went by the airport talked to the crews only one plane has tcas FFS. Numerous near misses crews are now working beyond cars fdtl as the province asked the feds for exemptions.

Stay safe out there
Couple of really close calls already so far this year. Stay safe waterbombing brothers and sisters.
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karmutzen
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by karmutzen »

Fire fighting is 702, not 703, so more relaxed FDT. 722.16 has been updated to silence all the finger-waggers. None of the pilots I've canvassed have any concern with FDTL, are you spinning your own story?

More info on the bucket release? Did he release at the belly hook (most don't fly with it armed, using the mechanical release if required). Bucket is shackled to the longline, or hooked directly to the belly hook -see previous on mechanical release.

There is some organizing of bucketing laps for separation, I'd have to trial the ADSB (would have to be the satellite one) to say if it had merit. Not sure where to install the display if the pilot is only looking out his bubble window. Install cost would be borne by the taxpayer of course.
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rigpiggy
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by rigpiggy »

1. Talking to local guy"I've been on 18 days straight, I've gone stupid"

2. The B412 passed underneath the other helo and cut off a loaded bucket. They only pulled the crews a few days later

3. An iPad makes for a large screen, almost every one I have seen recently is running one, scroll into local area get god's eye view

4.lowest price ads-b in out is about 249 USD, a stratus 750, and a garmin transponder with it is 3500(more for during a panel retrofit. I had the stratus and ran it between planes I flew to have on the iPad.
The satellite version ties into the system, local stuff is always shown.

5. Saved me at least once, had a numpty not communicating with anyone, atc, air-ground 26.7, 22.75 23.2 etc...... No answer I climbed 300' he went directly below me.

So no I do not have a personal agenda, other than keeping myself and others alive
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J31
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by J31 »

rigpiggy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:46 am
4.lowest price ads-b in out is about 249 USD, a stratus 750, and a garmin transponder with it is 3500(more for during a panel retrofit. I had the stratus and ran it between planes I flew to have on the iPad.
The satellite version ties into the system, local stuff is always shown.

So no I do not have a personal agenda, other than keeping myself and others alive
Could you please expand on the Stratus 750? I'm not able to find any info. Links?
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rigpiggy
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by rigpiggy »

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Bug_Stomper_01
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

rigpiggy wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 12:44 pm Heard that a 412 severed a bambi bucket 20' below another helicopter in the northern Alberta fires. Why the fudgenuts is the province not requiring ADS-B on all of these aircraft. it is only 1000$ + a cigarette charger and a suction cup antenna. I Went by the airport talked to the crews only one plane has tcas FFS. Numerous near misses crews are now working beyond cars fdtl as the province asked the feds for exemptions.

Stay safe out there
Yep that happened and damn lucky for both pilots this didn’t equate to fatalities. Agree about ADSB
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J31
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by J31 »

Thank you! I misinterpreted your post and was looking for a Stratus 750 for $249! My bad! :oops: It is a Stratus 3 for $750 USD.
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I WAS Pez
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by I WAS Pez »

Agree on benefits of traffic information in cockpit, but a note;

ADS-B "IN" devices like a Stratus + iPad are only half of the solution... In Canada (and most of the world), ADS-B "IN" devices will ONLY receive and display ADS-B "OUT" data for targets that are ADS-B "OUT" equipped, with a compatible link type. ADS-B "OUT" equipped aircraft are constantly broadcasting their position, squawk code, and some other bits of info.

So - the aircraft you want to see must have active ADS-B "OUT" of a compatible type for a receiver to see it... and must be the same link type, but in practice, most newer receivers support both link types.

This really matters in Canada, as legacy mode C or S equipped traffic will NOT be shown on your ADS-B "IN" based receiver. Currently, there is no legal requirement for ADS-B "OUT" below 12,500', though that will change. And there are LOTS of aircraft flying around with mode C or S only.... The newer aircraft, or those that have had avionics work done in the last few years, are more likely to have ADS-B "OUT" of some sort than the bulk of what's out there.

Installing ADS-B "OUT" that will be compliant with the diversity requirement expected to be required in Canada eventually (and now required over 12,500'), involves installing a new ADS-B "OUT" 1090ES transponder and top antenna or equivalent. The units I'm aware of that support this are:

-L3 ACSS Lynx NGT-9000D
-Garmin GTX 335D / GTX 345D / GTX 330D with ES upgrade
-uAvionix tailBeaconX

These are in the $5,000 - $15,000 USD range for hardware only, depending on options.... Less if there's an existing GTX 330D to upgrade. The Garmin options will also require a WAAS position feed integration with a supported Garmin WAAS panel mount IFR GPS. Labour at an avionics shop will add a fair chunk to this.

If looking for a quick and dirty ADS-B "OUT" option that'll need replacement to be compliant in Canada in the next 10 years, can do a skyBeacon or tailBeacon.....it's not as good a solution as those above and won't work with Nav Canada's tracking solution, but could be useful as a quick fix to throw ADS-B "OUT" on special use aircraft... these are about $2,100 USD and dead simple to install. Regular AME can do it. Retains legacy mode C or S transponder, kinda piggybacks in an ugly way. Again, it's not a long term solution, but could be a quick and dirty way to get ADS-B "OUT" on a bunch of planes in hurry for local observation only - this is a UAT link type, so the only ANSP to support it for surveillance is the FAA - this won't satisfy Nav Canada in a few years, as they want 1090ES w/diversity. Incidentally, we have a new in box, never installed tailBeacon at work to sell if anyone is interested.... hah!

Last is active traffic; a flavour of TCAS or TAS. They do the same thing as far as locating conflicting traffic, though only TCAS-II will provide a resolution. These systems use a sensitive directional antenna to determine rough range and relative bearing to target, then show in aircraft. These systems work with legacy mode C and S transponders, as well as ADS-B. Most newer systems are full fledged ADS-B "IN" receivers as well, to take advantage of the enhanced ADS-B "IN" features, and some will work with iPads, etc just like a Stratus does. THIS is the only sort of system that'll show all active transponder equipped aircraft nearby, whereas ADS-B "IN" alone will be blind to legacy mode C and S traffic. Here are some popular currently available active traffic systems:

-L3 ACSS Lynx NGT-9000D+ (also does ADS-B 1090ES w/diversity "OUT"), and ADS-B dual link "IN", with wifi to iPad, and ARINC feed to other avionics
-Garmin GTS 800 family (needs to be paired w transponder for ADS-B "OUT", does active traffic and ADS-B 1090ES "IN" only

ADS-B is awesome. But value of an ADS-B "IN" receiver is limited in the absence of a requirement for all aircraft to be ADS-B "OUT" equipped. If you want a more complete picture, TAS active traffic or TCAS is required.... or ensure all traffic operating in the area have some form of ADS-B "OUT".
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rigpiggy
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by rigpiggy »

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I WAS Pez
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by I WAS Pez »

rigpiggy wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:56 am https://www.navcanada.ca/en/aiceng202224.pdf

mandated ads-b timeline.
The 2024 deadline for class B is interesting. I believe when they reintroduced a timeline last year, they only had the 2023 date for class A and B.... They may have revised the deadline for class B...

Either way, for all the other non class G/F airspace, it's "no sooner than" 2026. So...not everyone will have this in Canada any time soon. TAS or TCAS only electronic means to properly pick up mode C and S transponders until everyone has ADS-B.
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karmutzen
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by karmutzen »

And the regulation only calls for ADSB out, not in. That 2026 date will slide too, just like the Class B has. Not much looking inside the cockpit at a screen when you're working a fire with a helicopter.
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by bobcaygeon »

I WAS Pez wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:03 pm
rigpiggy wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:56 am https://www.navcanada.ca/en/aiceng202224.pdf

mandated ads-b timeline.
The 2024 deadline for class B is interesting. I believe when they reintroduced a timeline last year, they only had the 2023 date for class A and B.... They may have revised the deadline for class B...

Either way, for all the other non class G/F airspace, it's "no sooner than" 2026. So...not everyone will have this in Canada any time soon. TAS or TCAS only electronic means to properly pick up mode C and S transponders until everyone has ADS-B.
Class B was pushed back due to supply chain and avionics install issues. COVID crunch $$$$ cancelled a lot of airlines proactive plans.
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I WAS Pez
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by I WAS Pez »

karmutzen wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:36 pm And the regulation only calls for ADSB out, not in. That 2026 date will slide too, just like the Class B has. Not much looking inside the cockpit at a screen when you're working a fire with a helicopter.
That date may very well slide...which is why I'm a fan, when considering electronic traffic alerting systems, of those that include traditional TAS or TCAS alerting, rather than just ADS-B. And yes, I hear you on ADS-B "OUT" vs "IN" - but an "IN" system only does anything of use if everyone around you has ADS-B "OUT" (other than in the US, where pretty much everone should have ADS-B "OUT" by now anyway). Absent that, you'll have at best a woefully incomplete picture.

Also, no debate on looking out window vs staring at a screen - these systems don't obviate the need to see and be seen, coordinate over radio, etc, and are of course not required......but having flown with them after flying without for years, it is absolutely mind boggling the amount of traffic in close proximity I'd not been aware of. Are the various flavours of terrain alerting systems - GPWS, EGPWS, TAWS, FLTA, etc required for safe flight? No, of course not. Do they save lives? Yes. Traffic awareness systems are in the same bucket. They're an effective tool to increase situational awareness, and may just help avoid a mid-air, especially in crowded airspace.

My point in replying to this thread though, was to really just point out that a few hundred dollar ADS-B "IN" receiver is of limited value unless everyone around has ADS-B "OUT". TAS/TCAS is required to electronically see all the non ADS-B stuff (well, assuming they even have active transponders...)
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rigpiggy
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by rigpiggy »

And assuming you have tcas, which isn't mandated unless > 12.500#. How much is a tcas retrofit for an astar? 25k just for the box https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/106233

Cars 703.70 above 12566#
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I WAS Pez
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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by I WAS Pez »

This is where some of the newer boxes like the NGT-9000D+ can come in. New Mode S / ADS-B 1090ES + diversity "OUT" transponder, dual link ADS-B "IN", TAS active traffic (which is like TCAS-I with slightly shorter range and less accurate target bearing resolution)... Actually, for a little more $ and a different directional antenna, that box can do TCAS-I as well, rather than TAS. AND it gives you a new transponder, ADS-B in and out, etc. Bonus with NGT-9000 is it has its own built in WAAS GPS - no need to interface with external approved position source. Also has inexpensive wifi module usually included in installation. Cost is somewhere in the $12,000-$15,000 USD range for all of this (more for TCAS-I). Plus installation, of course.

Can also be a class B TAWS for a little more $.

It's still not cheap... Absent there being an ADS-B mandate that applies to all, there is unfortunately no inexpensive way to get a fairly complete electronic traffic picture. That said, in the next few years, we'll all need new 1090ES + diversity transponders with WAAS position source anyway.
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Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by pelmet »

In the days leading up to the day of the occurrence, the pilot of C-FKMX, an Aerospatiale AS350B3
had been conducting long line forest fire fighting operations in support of Wildfire 017 located
approximately 6 nm NW of Valleyview, Alberta (CEL5) in co-ordination with C-FCCK, a Bell
Helicopters model 412 operated by Summit Helicopters Ltd.

On the day of the occurrence, at approximately 1234 MDT, C-FKMX had been dispatched to conduct
long line bucketing operationsin continued support of Wildfire 017 on the east side of Sturgeon Lake,
Alberta (Sandy Bay). C-FCCK, had also been dispatched to conduct bucketing operations in support of
Wildfire 017 approximately 3.5 nm SE of C-FKMX's location. In addition, C-FALI, a Bell Helicopters model 212
operated by Alpine Helicopters, was called in to assist C-FCCK in working the eastern flank of the
fire line.

After approximately 8-9 buckets drops in the Sandy Bay area, C-FKMX was repurposed to join C-
FCCK, and C-FALI in firefighting operations on the eastern edge of the fire. Enroute to the new
location, C-FKMX refilled the bucket and proceeded southeast to engage in operations.

As C-FKMX approached the new area of operations; the flight crew of the three helicopters engaged in
firefighting operations were all communicating on the same frequency. As C-FKMX approached the
drop area from the northwest, visual contact was made with C-FALI, while communicating on the
radio and broadcasting current position and intentions and trying to visually acquire the location of
C-FCCK. C-FCCK responded to the radio call, but portions of the radio calls between the two pilots
were not clearly understood. The pilot of C-FKMX believed that C-FCCK was clear of the
immediate area, and the pilot of C-FCCK was not aware that C-FKMX was immediately joining the
firefighting efforts at their location.

The pilots of both C-FKMX and C-FCCK both unknowingly observed the same hotspot in the area and
had elected to drop their water on it at almost the same time. Due to the pilots' seating position in
each helicopter (right seat in C-FKMX, and left seat in C-FCCK) and the relative relationship of the
two helicopters to each other in flight, the pilots of both helicopters did not visually acquire the other.

In the process of lining up to deploy the water on the
location, C-FCCK which was slightly below C-FKMX, made contact with, and severed the long line
of C-FKMX approximately 28 feet below the helicopter's fuselage. The majority of the longline and
bucket assembly impacted terrain in a non-populated area and both helicopters continued to fly.
Departing the immediate area, the pilot of C-FKMX initiated a crab to keep the remaining portion of
the severed long line from entangling the tail rotor and found a clearing to land in to complete a
preliminary inspection of the helicopter. No damage was found, and the remaining portion of the
long line was removed and placed in the cabin. C-FKMX repositioned to CEL5 to refuel and then
return to the Valleyview firebase.

The pilot of C-FCCK was unaware that his main rotor system had severed the longline of C-FKMX
believing that C-FKMX had severed its own longline. C-FCCK continued to work the fire until
notified by Alberta Forestry that the helicopter had been involved in an occurrence, at which time
the helicopter returned to the Valleyview firebase for an inspection by company maintenance. No
damage was found, and the helicopter was returned to service.

A subsequent investigation by Alberta Forestry resulted in an amendment to the circuit joining
procedures for aircraft joining a previously established firefighting circuit, and clarification of
procedures for aircraft moving work areas.
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Last edited by pelmet on Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Close Call Firefighting

Post by Old fella »

During my air tanker days late ‘70s & very early ‘80s, one of our biggest issues was keeping a keen lookout for helicopters as they popped up all over the place. A slow lumbering Canso with 8000lbs of water wasn’t the most manoeuvrable beast and can be a handful down close. Worked a couple of bad fires during those years and there was one very close all with another Canso crew when a helicopter popped up unexpectedly, lucky the Canso dropped the load prior to.
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Re: Close Call Firefighting

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

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Re: Bell 412 severs bambi bucket

Post by pelmet »

Interesting incident for sure.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Aug 09, 2023 11:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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