WJ AIP - disappointing or not?

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Maybe the contract wasn’t as strong due to having to compete with the likes of flair?

[Tbayer2021]

I think it's disappointing. For all the crap WS pilots threw at us in the Flair forum when our TA came with some good gains, that we unfortunately had to make concessions for, this AIP seems like meagre gains at best.

How long is CBA 2.0 going to be in force if you vote to accept the first offer? I truly hope for your sake it's 3 years or less.

Settle down, dude. If the numbers turn out to be true, First year captain at WJ will be higher than top rate at flair and by a wide margin. That's not even to speak of every other aspect of the contract that Flair doesn't even have. Oh, and you know what else you will never see at WJ? That first year cpt step. Because they have years of service and even if it takes you 10 years to upgrade, you slide right over to 10th year cpt pay. Something you can afford to do if you don't want to sit at the bottom of the list and just wait to have a few under you. Keep that in mind when the party comes to a stop at Flair, and upgrades don't happen 1-2 years in anymore, you'll still start at year 1 cpt pay whenever it is you do upgrade.

[Bede]

I voted no to every concession that ever came our way. Every one. Every opportunity I voiced my displeasure with the direction ACPA was heading. So I did my part. I also walked with you guys, yellow and pink lanyard and all and I took the entire weekend off to support you guys on the line.

Fair enough. Thank you for your support.

[rudder]

I think it's disappointing. For all the crap WS pilots threw at us in the Flair forum when our TA came with some good gains, that we unfortunately had to make concessions for, this AIP seems like meagre gains at best.

How long is CBA 2.0 going to be in force if you vote to accept the first offer? I truly hope for your sake it's 3 years or less.

A lot of posters seem to be analyzing the AIP as a ‘strike’ contract. It is not. There was no strike. Threat of a strike and strike are two different things.

Having said that, a strike does not necessarily guarantee a superior result. I have experienced both. Sometime the ‘strike’ contract was better than last offer. Sometimes it was no better.

Outcomes are NEVER guaranteed. Striking against a massive conglomerate where your company is just a cog in the wheel is different than striking against a standalone airline with a singularly focused BOD accountable to shareholders in that airline.

In any case, this will likely continue as a ‘what if’ debate. But the WJ pilots are going to be voting on what is in front of them. Imagine being an SW pilot? The WJ pilots are effectively voting on their future WAWCON.

[RippleRock]

I voted no to every concession that ever came our way. Every one. Every opportunity I voiced my displeasure with the direction ACPA was heading. So I did my part. I also walked with you guys, yellow and pink lanyard and all and I took the entire weekend off to support you guys on the line.

Fair enough. Thank you for your support.

It was my pleasure. The energy at the events was unforgettable. I really thought it worth while.

I apologize if I came across too harshly. I wasn't aware of your "starting point". It made it a challenge to quantify tangible gains. Next time I'll do more research before commenting.

Cheers.

[Bede]

I voted no to every concession that ever came our way. Every one. Every opportunity I voiced my displeasure with the direction ACPA was heading. So I did my part. I also walked with you guys, yellow and pink lanyard and all and I took the entire weekend off to support you guys on the line.

Fair enough. Thank you for your support.

It was my pleasure. The energy at the events was unforgettable. I really thought it worth while.

I apologize if I came across too harshly. I wasn't aware of your "starting point". It made it a challenge to quantify tangible gains. Next time I'll do more research before commenting.

Cheers.

Likewise.

[co-joe]

Settle down, dude. If the numbers turn out to be true, First year captain at WJ will be higher than top rate at flair and by a wide margin. That's not even to speak of every other aspect of the contract that Flair doesn't even have. Oh, and you know what else you will never see at WJ? That first year cpt step. Because they have years of service and even if it takes you 10 years to upgrade, you slide right over to 10th year cpt pay. Something you can afford to do if you don't want to sit at the bottom of the list and just wait to have a few under you. Keep that in mind when the party comes to a stop at Flair, and upgrades don't happen 1-2 years in anymore, you'll still start at year 1 cpt pay whenever it is you do upgrade.

I'm settled down just fine dude, why are you touting 12 year upgrades as a positive?

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He wasn’t. He was touting years of service. And he’s correct.

[tbaylx]

He wasn’t. He was touting years of service. And he’s correct.

YOS matters when the upgrade time is upwards of 10 years. For a startup company, it's not something that matters much with upgrade times under two years. As a company matures and upgrade times extend past 4 years it becomes more relevant. Flair is several years away from that.

It's only a recent addition to the Westjet contract as well.

[Canadaflyer46]

Current upgrade times are 15 years for western bases and 10 years for YYZ. To go bottom of the reserve list. That’s why FO pay was so important in this CA. Disappointed to see the 2 year flat pay. No FO should be starting on less than $100/hour.

[Bede]

Current upgrade times are 15 years for western bases and 10 years for YYZ. To go bottom of the reserve list. That’s why FO pay was so important in this CA. Disappointed to see the 2 year flat pay. No FO should be starting on less than $100/hour.

I agree with you, but here's the difficulty: if the MEC tries to close the gap, no matter how high the hourly rate, the senior guys will complain that they're getting screwed because the junior guys are getting a bigger increase then them.

[Canadaflyer46]

Current upgrade times are 15 years for western bases and 10 years for YYZ. To go bottom of the reserve list. That’s why FO pay was so important in this CA. Disappointed to see the 2 year flat pay. No FO should be starting on less than $100/hour.

I agree with you, but here's the difficulty: if the MEC tries to close the gap, no matter how high the hourly rate, the senior guys will complain that they're getting screwed because the junior guys are getting a bigger increase then them.

100%. Hard to please everyone and the MEC did a stellar job with the survey results. While many of us are disappointed that the gap didn’t close as much as we may have expected, the language in this TA is light years ahead of CA1. Hopefully it has set us up for pattern bargaining in Canada.

[flyinhigh]

He wasn’t. He was touting years of service. And he’s correct.

YOS matters when the upgrade time is upwards of 10 years. For a startup company, it's not something that matters much with upgrade times under two years. As a company matures and upgrade times extend past 4 years it becomes more relevant. Flair is several years away from that.

It's only a recent addition to the Westjet contract as well.

I’ll give you the long upgrades at WJ but don't say it was a recent addition to WJ as it was in CA1. Something you guys just went through and wouldn’t even give trip and duty rigs that WJ got in CA1 as well.

[tbaylx]

He wasn’t. He was touting years of service. And he’s correct.

YOS matters when the upgrade time is upwards of 10 years. For a startup company, it's not something that matters much with upgrade times under two years. As a company matures and upgrade times extend past 4 years it becomes more relevant. Flair is several years away from that.

It's only a recent addition to the Westjet contract as well.

I’ll give you the long upgrades at WJ but don't say it was a recent addition to WJ as it was in CA1. Something you guys just went through and wouldn’t even give trip and duty rigs that WJ got in CA1 as well.

CA1 and YOS are a recent addition to Westjet given its history. Flair in its growth cycle is Westjet in 2000. I am certain Flair's T&Cs will continue to be competitive as their contracts evolve.

[flyinhigh]

YOS matters when the upgrade time is upwards of 10 years. For a startup company, it's not something that matters much with upgrade times under two years. As a company matures and upgrade times extend past 4 years it becomes more relevant. Flair is several years away from that.

It's only a recent addition to the Westjet contract as well.

I’ll give you the long upgrades at WJ but don't say it was a recent addition to WJ as it was in CA1. Something you guys just went through and wouldn’t even give trip and duty rigs that WJ got in CA1 as well.

CA1 and YOS are a recent addition to Westjet given its history. Flair in its growth cycle is Westjet in 2000. I am certain Flair's T&Cs will continue to be competitive as their contracts evolve.

It’s recent due to unionization, no other reason. Flair unionized shortly after WJ CA1. When the Flair MEC negotiated they failed miserably at breaking just even.

It does not matter how long a company has been around, just look at what is occurring with WJ engineers, etc. unions come in and you start from scratch, period.

When WJ did CA1, they started from scratch and achieved much more than Flair did on Ca1. Flair had a great opportunity, and struck out by a mile. Doesn’t matter how you spin it, the CA at Flair is crap.

[tbaylx]

I’ll give you the long upgrades at WJ but don't say it was a recent addition to WJ as it was in CA1. Something you guys just went through and wouldn’t even give trip and duty rigs that WJ got in CA1 as well.

CA1 and YOS are a recent addition to Westjet given its history. Flair in its growth cycle is Westjet in 2000. I am certain Flair's T&Cs will continue to be competitive as their contracts evolve.

It’s recent due to unionization, no other reason. Flair unionized shortly after WJ CA1. When the Flair MEC negotiated they failed miserably at breaking just even.

It does not matter how long a company has been around, just look at what is occurring with WJ engineers, etc. unions come in and you start from scratch, period.

When WJ did CA1, they started from scratch and achieved much more than Flair did on Ca1. Flair had a great opportunity, and struck out by a mile. Doesn’t matter how you spin it, the CA at Flair is crap.

Your opinion is noted

[khedrei]

Current upgrade times are 15 years for western bases and 10 years for YYZ. To go bottom of the reserve list. That’s why FO pay was so important in this CA. Disappointed to see the 2 year flat pay. No FO should be starting on less than $100/hour.

I agree with you, but here's the difficulty: if the MEC tries to close the gap, no matter how high the hourly rate, the senior guys will complain that they're getting screwed because the junior guys are getting a bigger increase then them.

I dont care what anyone says.... FOs making 60k need a 40k raise more than captains making 200k need a 60k raise (or anything more than a standard 3% for that matter). Don't get me wrong, I think everyone deserved a big %, but it should have been in thr neighborhood of 40% for JR FOs and 10% for SR captains.

The % increase SHOULD have been weighted much more heavily on the JR guys seeing as they aren't making a living wage. In terms of %, they are also much further away from compatible wages in the US.

[Bede]

I dont care what anyone says.... FOs making 60k need a 40k raise more than captains making 200k need a 60k raise (or anything more than a standard 3% for that matter). Don't get me wrong, I think everyone deserved a big %, but it should have been in thr neighborhood of 40% for JR FOs and 10% for SR captains.

The % increase SHOULD have been weighted much more heavily on the JR guys seeing as they aren't making a living wage. In terms of %, they are also much further away from compatible wages in the US.

As a top scale captain, I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately dealing with the body politic doesn't work so easily.