AIP is dogshit

[bcflyer]

But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program.

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

The cash savings plan or CSP was the best part of the Westjet savings plan WSP. Anyone not enrolled FULLY into this program does not know what they are missing, and I have to question your basic sense of investing. This program would take what ever you invest as a principle and then return it to you at year end ALONg with a 100-120% match. So if I loaned them 8k, at the years end I would recieve the 8k back plus another 8k as the match, guaranteed ZERO risk, 100% return on investment, and it can be even higher 120% return on investment. The rrsp or tsfa options are great but they will NEVER provide returns that are even close to the CSP. Loosing this program is a massive loss, and for those actually wise enough to use it. This 15.5 % raise will nearly outweigh the loss from the program.

I’m not intimately familiar with the CSP but one thing I do know is that loaning money to an airline is most definitely not zero risk. The Canadian landscape is littered with the remains of airlines that couldn’t fail.

[Tolip]

Isn't that what the 9% extra raise and the 10% wsp is compensating for?

That is what they are saying, and its true that it will absolutely lessen the blow. But make no mistake, a loss of a program that guarantees a up too 120% return on investment year over year. For this program where you will only earn a 15% return on investment (MAYBE. Tbe stock market isnt doing well right now). That's a difference of 105% at years end. So no, that extra 9% does not offset the losses. Not even close. The CSP is so amazing most people can't even wrap their heads around how awesome it is, it is NO wonder the company made it a priority to kill it off the first chance they got.

Then according to your math, the 10% of company contribution in this TA, match-free, would result in an infinite return on investment.

I’ve really tried following what you’re saying but your math is completely wrong and you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the most basic of investing concepts. Sorry to be harsh.

I think you fundamentally do not understand what the CSP is. And that is why you are so confused. So I will not attempt to explain it to you, just know that there is a reason the Company made it a priority to get rid of the CSP in order to replace it with this new program. Its because the 15.5% raise would have been compounded greatly by those using the CSP program. And they knew it would cost them, so they AXED the program and replaced it with a program that is HUGLEY cheeper for the company to run.

[sstaurus]

Sorry Tolip, you’re out to lunch here. The company actually loved the wsp because there was a good portion of the pilot group who didn’t participate in this free money because they felt they couldn’t afford the take home cut.

And I have no idea where you think this free 120% guaranteed money is from… a match is not an investment. It’s just the old stock match program dressed up with an ‘interest’ portion. Perhaps you’re thinking of the 3-year lock in rate where the company holds your money hostage and invests it themselves. They gave you 1.2 back for the whole 3 year period… not compounded annually. Thats a 90% match, plus .3 “interest”. Thats equivalent to the old 100% match plus 20%. For holding your money for 3 years…. I suppose that’s better than sitting in a HISA.

[Maritimer]

But the loss of the cash savings plan is an IMMEDIATE 20% direct pay cut to every pilot in that program.

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

The cash savings plan or CSP was the best part of the Westjet savings plan WSP. Anyone not enrolled FULLY into this program does not know what they are missing, and I have to question your basic sense of investing. This program would take what ever you invest as a principle and then return it to you at year end ALONg with a 100-120% match. So if I loaned them 8k, at the years end I would recieve the 8k back plus another 8k as the match, guaranteed ZERO risk, 100% return on investment, and it can be even higher 120% return on investment. The rrsp or tsfa options are great but they will NEVER provide returns that are even close to the CSP. Loosing this program is a massive loss, and for those actually wise enough to use it. This 15.5 % raise will nearly outweigh the loss from the program.

Now I'm really starting to wonder if you are even a WJ pilot. The CSP is the best part? What on earth are you smoking? The NRSP is by far the best part, followed by the RRSP and TFSA.

You are incorrect in almost everything you've posted here.

[Curiousflyer]

The 20% is the 100% match in the CSP. WestJet matches 100% return on 20% of salary (CA1). So that represents 20% of your salary (CSP Match). The MEC has, for transparency, shown where this 20% CSP match has gone to so that pilots can see what was negotiated as new money. For easy dollars let’s assume that 20% = $20k. In CA2 that $20k gets split into two different avenues, one is salary and the other is a retirement plan. $9.1k would go to salary and $10.9k would go to retirement plan.

[Tolip]

We have pilots doing the cash savings plan? (aka the owners to loaners plan). Who in their right mind provides the corp an unsecured loan for close to 0%? I don’t know anyone who does the CSP.

The cash savings plan or CSP was the best part of the Westjet savings plan WSP. Anyone not enrolled FULLY into this program does not know what they are missing, and I have to question your basic sense of investing. This program would take what ever you invest as a principle and then return it to you at year end ALONg with a 100-120% match. So if I loaned them 8k, at the years end I would recieve the 8k back plus another 8k as the match, guaranteed ZERO risk, 100% return on investment, and it can be even higher 120% return on investment. The rrsp or tsfa options are great but they will NEVER provide returns that are even close to the CSP. Loosing this program is a massive loss, and for those actually wise enough to use it. This 15.5 % raise will nearly outweigh the loss from the program.

Now I'm really starting to wonder if you are even a WJ pilot. The CSP is the best part? What on earth are you smoking? The NRSP is by far the best part, followed by the RRSP and TFSA.

You are incorrect in almost everything you've posted here.

What are your year over year returns in the rrsp or equivalent programs? The point of investing is to make money! It's not completed. CSP was a guaranteed way to more then DOUBLE your money. And have cash in hand at year end, I know your money is NOT doubling each year in your rrsp. You guys need to get a clue.

And all in have posted about is the CSP. What am I wrong about?

It is has been terminated. (And there is a reason for that, it was too costly a program for the company)

It DID more then double your investment yest over year, GARONTEED

The stock market is doing very poorly, I KNOW in a basic company RRSP, you are not more then doubling your money each year. Therefore pilots will be loosing the Opportunity of tbe funds generated in the CSP.

What is wrong with anything there? I'm not arguing or being petty to any of you guys, I'm offering genuine concerns over the loss of the CSP, and expressing how Personally, if they take away the CSP, my cashflow at year end will now be 20% less. But they are only giving a 15.5% raise. THAT is a PAY CUT, UNLESS these new programs can bridge the gap, (if you know anything about investing, you know the stock market is doing poorly at this time) and while the RRSP/tsfa will deffinily close the 5% gap I mentioned above, it will not put cash in my hand at year end. It will be locked up and invested. Aswell, how well the the new WSP performs is actually the TRUE measure of how big a raise WJ pilot are receiving. And I fear it will result in over all earnings that are basically the same as the current TA.

[Tony Soprano]

What are your year over year returns in the rrsp or equivalent programs? The point of investing is to make money! It's not completed. CSP was a guaranteed way to more then DOUBLE your money. And have cash in hand at year end, I know your money is NOT doubling each year in your rrsp. You guys need to get a clue.

I'm with you dude. Maybe you can invest my retirement savings for me. With returns of 120% every year I should be able to retire in about 4 years.

[Bede]

What is wrong with anything there? I'm not arguing or being petty to any of you guys, I'm offering genuine concerns over the loss of the CSP...

I get that you're trying to be sincere, and forgive me for being too direct, but it's difficult for me to know where to start. The very basics seem to be missing- to an alarming degree. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

...if they take away the CSP, my cashflow at year end will now be 20% less. But they are only giving a 15.5% raise. THAT is a PAY CUT, UNLESS these new programs can bridge the gap...

But it's not a 15.5% raise, it's a 24.6% raise (look at the payscales). The additional ~10% was put into payscales. As for the other 20%, that is the money that you contributed. You still have that money-it's just not tied up in a loan to the company.

(if you know anything about investing, you know the stock market is doing poorly at this time)

The S&P 500 is up 10.8% YTD. That's considered a reasonable return. (Granted, that's mostly the highly weighted tech stocks, but that's another discussion).

I mentioned above, it will not put cash in my hand at year end.

Even better is to get that cash at every pay cheque.

Aswell, how well the the new WSP performs is actually the TRUE measure of how big a raise WJ pilot are receiving. And I fear it will result in over all earnings that are basically the same as the current TA.

The performance of your WSP account is dictated by the returns of the fund that you've invested in.

[sstaurus]

What are your year over year returns in the rrsp or equivalent programs? The point of investing is to make money! It's not completed. CSP was a guaranteed way to more then DOUBLE your money. And have cash in hand at year end, I know your money is NOT doubling each year in your rrsp. You guys need to get a clue.

I'm with you dude. Maybe you can invest my retirement savings for me. With returns of 120% every year I should be able to retire in about 4 years.

Where's Bernie Madoff when you need him... who needs the stock market when WJ will guarantee to double my money!

[Tolip]

What is wrong with anything there? I'm not arguing or being petty to any of you guys, I'm offering genuine concerns over the loss of the CSP...

I get that you're trying to be sincere, and forgive me for being too direct, but it's difficult for me to know where to start. The very basics seem to be missing- to an alarming degree. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

...if they take away the CSP, my cashflow at year end will now be 20% less. But they are only giving a 15.5% raise. THAT is a PAY CUT, UNLESS these new programs can bridge the gap...

But it's not a 15.5% raise, it's a 24.6% raise (look at the payscales). The additional ~10% was put into payscales. As for the other 20%, that is the money that you contributed. You still have that money-it's just not tied up in a loan to the company.

(if you know anything about investing, you know the stock market is doing poorly at this time)

The S&P 500 is up 10.8% YTD. That's considered a reasonable return. (Granted, that's mostly the highly weighted tech stocks, but that's another discussion).

I mentioned above, it will not put cash in my hand at year end.

Even better is to get that cash at every pay cheque.

Aswell, how well the the new WSP performs is actually the TRUE measure of how big a raise WJ pilot are receiving. And I fear it will result in over all earnings that are basically the same as the current TA.

The performance of your WSP account is dictated by the returns of the fund that you've invested in.

Thankyou for actually contributing with a reply that contains information. And only (some) insults. I see no point in slinging insults at people when it comes to discussing the WSP program, it is a CRUCIAL program to our payscale's. But it is extremely confusing how it is broken down, aswell details about the NEW WSP program are still very foggy and distorted to fully understand. And while I still stand by my comments that the CSP has been terminated and that it is a huge loss. I will concede that I just looked into that 10% into the payscale's that you mentioned, I had believed that that 10% was just to be added into the new WSP program. It is very helpful that it will be instead added to the payscale's, so thankyou for that point of clarification. However even still, if we still had the CSP it would compound the earnings in the new TA greatly. It's a loss that it's gone (again, there is a reason the company axed this program) it would have cost them too much. The company podcast episode 21 at about 5 mins in talks about this subject. And they state that the 10% into the payscale's and the new changes to the WSP are only expected to CAPTURE the existing value of the current WSP. And the only NEW money being added is the 15.5% raise and the 3% 3% and 2.5% additions year over year.

[Tolip]

What are your year over year returns in the rrsp or equivalent programs? The point of investing is to make money! It's not completed. CSP was a guaranteed way to more then DOUBLE your money. And have cash in hand at year end, I know your money is NOT doubling each year in your rrsp. You guys need to get a clue.

I'm with you dude. Maybe you can invest my retirement savings for me. With returns of 120% every year I should be able to retire in about 4 years.

Where's Bernie Madoff when you need him... who needs the stock market when WJ will guarantee to double my money!

The cash savings plan did garontee a 100% return on investment year over year, it would do exactly that, DOUBLE the money you put into the program ever year. With as close to zero risk as you will ever get with an investment. The fact you dont know what the CSP offered means you should not be commenting on it.

[Tolip]

What is wrong with anything there? I'm not arguing or being petty to any of you guys, I'm offering genuine concerns over the loss of the CSP...

I get that you're trying to be sincere, and forgive me for being too direct, but it's difficult for me to know where to start. The very basics seem to be missing- to an alarming degree. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

...if they take away the CSP, my cashflow at year end will now be 20% less. But they are only giving a 15.5% raise. THAT is a PAY CUT, UNLESS these new programs can bridge the gap...

But it's not a 15.5% raise, it's a 24.6% raise (look at the payscales). The additional ~10% was put into payscales. As for the other 20%, that is the money that you contributed. You still have that money-it's just not tied up in a loan to the company.

(if you know anything about investing, you know the stock market is doing poorly at this time)

The S&P 500 is up 10.8% YTD. That's considered a reasonable return. (Granted, that's mostly the highly weighted tech stocks, but that's another discussion).

I mentioned above, it will not put cash in my hand at year end.

Even better is to get that cash at every pay cheque.

Aswell, how well the the new WSP performs is actually the TRUE measure of how big a raise WJ pilot are receiving. And I fear it will result in over all earnings that are basically the same as the current TA.

The performance of your WSP account is dictated by the returns of the fund that you've invested in.

Aswell, even with what your saying that it is a 24.6 % raise, the CSP previously would give a 20% raise... so that's would still mean at year end In terms of cash in hand, we will only walk away with 4.6% more money in my pocket. SORRY but its pritty hard to get excited about that.

Aswell, what your saying about the S and P 500 being up 10.8%.. that's basically nothing, considering inflation is still sitting at close to 5% and currently increasing.. that's extremely meager gains. And if we can only expect a potential 10.8% return with the new WSP program, then that's even worse then the 15% that I had predicted in earlier posts. It's not alot of money. And it is completely up to the stock market, which faces MANY risks over the comming years. And it is far less then the up too 120% returns the CSP offered

I am not saying we will not recieve more financial competition with this new AIP, we absolutely WILL. However with the loss of the CSP it will be far less then advertised. It's a very subtle and sneaky way for the company to save money, which is why they did away with the CSP program. If the CSP program is worse then the tsfa and RRSP as you guys are stating. Why would yo company make it a priority to remove it as an option?

[cdnavater]

What is wrong with anything there? I'm not arguing or being petty to any of you guys, I'm offering genuine concerns over the loss of the CSP...

I get that you're trying to be sincere, and forgive me for being too direct, but it's difficult for me to know where to start. The very basics seem to be missing- to an alarming degree. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

...if they take away the CSP, my cashflow at year end will now be 20% less. But they are only giving a 15.5% raise. THAT is a PAY CUT, UNLESS these new programs can bridge the gap...

But it's not a 15.5% raise, it's a 24.6% raise (look at the payscales). The additional ~10% was put into payscales. As for the other 20%, that is the money that you contributed. You still have that money-it's just not tied up in a loan to the company.

(if you know anything about investing, you know the stock market is doing poorly at this time)

The S&P 500 is up 10.8% YTD. That's considered a reasonable return. (Granted, that's mostly the highly weighted tech stocks, but that's another discussion).

I mentioned above, it will not put cash in my hand at year end.

Even better is to get that cash at every pay cheque.

Aswell, how well the the new WSP performs is actually the TRUE measure of how big a raise WJ pilot are receiving. And I fear it will result in over all earnings that are basically the same as the current TA.

The performance of your WSP account is dictated by the returns of the fund that you've invested in.

Aswell, even with what your saying that it is a 24.6 % raise, the CSP previously would give a 20% raise... so that's would still mean at year end In terms of cash in hand, we will only walk away with 4.6% more money in my pocket. SORRY but its pritty hard to get excited about that.

Aswell, what your saying about the S and P 500 being up 10.8%.. that's basically nothing, considering inflation is still sitting at close to 5% and currently increasing.. that's extremely meager gains. And if we can only expect a potential 10.8% return with the new WSP program, then that's even worse then the 15% that I had predicted in earlier posts. It's not alot of money. And it is completely up to the stock market, which faces MANY risks over the comming years. And it is far less then the up too 120% returns the CSP offered

I am not saying we will not recieve more financial competition with this new AIP, we absolutely WILL. However with the loss of the CSP it will be far less then advertised. It's a very subtle and sneaky way for the company to save money, which is why they did away with the CSP program. If the CSP program is worse then the tsfa and RRSP as you guys are stating. Why would yo company make it a priority to remove it as an option?

As an outsider you can correct me if I’m wrong but the company match was taxed at the source as income, was it not?
So, if the company match was 20,000 eg; you pay the taxes as though you earned it as income, so not a true cash in hand like you stated. It was essentially a 20,000 raise delayed by a year but your paycheque was deducted as though you received already. Is this not what we are talking about?
Now, the new set up, you get a 9.1% raise tacked on to the pay scale and 10% put in to a retirement type savings plan without the need to contribute your own 10%, therefore you get to keep that money in your account and do what you want with it, eg; invest it throughout the year, not waiting for it to vest as a lump sump.
Seems like a better set up to me, the money is all there just not a lump sum.

[Tolip]

I get that you're trying to be sincere, and forgive me for being too direct, but it's difficult for me to know where to start. The very basics seem to be missing- to an alarming degree. Sorry if this sounds harsh.


But it's not a 15.5% raise, it's a 24.6% raise (look at the payscales). The additional ~10% was put into payscales. As for the other 20%, that is the money that you contributed. You still have that money-it's just not tied up in a loan to the company.


The S&P 500 is up 10.8% YTD. That's considered a reasonable return. (Granted, that's mostly the highly weighted tech stocks, but that's another discussion).


Even better is to get that cash at every pay cheque.


The performance of your WSP account is dictated by the returns of the fund that you've invested in.

Aswell, even with what your saying that it is a 24.6 % raise, the CSP previously would give a 20% raise... so that's would still mean at year end In terms of cash in hand, we will only walk away with 4.6% more money in my pocket. SORRY but its pritty hard to get excited about that.

Aswell, what your saying about the S and P 500 being up 10.8%.. that's basically nothing, considering inflation is still sitting at close to 5% and currently increasing.. that's extremely meager gains. And if we can only expect a potential 10.8% return with the new WSP program, then that's even worse then the 15% that I had predicted in earlier posts. It's not alot of money. And it is completely up to the stock market, which faces MANY risks over the comming years. And it is far less then the up too 120% returns the CSP offered

I am not saying we will not recieve more financial competition with this new AIP, we absolutely WILL. However with the loss of the CSP it will be far less then advertised. It's a very subtle and sneaky way for the company to save money, which is why they did away with the CSP program. If the CSP program is worse then the tsfa and RRSP as you guys are stating. Why would yo company make it a priority to remove it as an option?

As an outsider you can correct me if I’m wrong but the company match was taxed at the source as income, was it not?
So, if the company match was 20,000 eg; you pay the taxes as though you earned it as income, so not a true cash in hand like you stated. It was essentially a 20,000 raise delayed by a year but your paycheque was deducted as though you received already. Is this not what we are talking about?
Now, the new set up, you get a 9.1% raise tacked on to the pay scale and 10% put in to a retirement type savings plan without the need to contribute your own 10%, therefore you get to keep that money in your account and do what you want with it, eg; invest it throughout the year, not waiting for it to vest as a lump sump.
Seems like a better set up to me, the money is all there just not a lump sum.

Your exactly right, the CSP used to be essentially a 20% raise to be taxed and treated as income. Where as now we will get the 15.5% raise plusb9.1% into the payscale. So a 24.6% raise.. but realistically for those that put the full 20% into the CSP previously will only actually be receiving 4.6% more at years end.. not much to get excited about. The real gains will be entirely dependent on how well this new WSP program performs, and as I have said the Stock market is not doing well and it is expected to not perform well for sometime. So I dont see a huge return comming from that WSP. Aswell remember that money is locked away and invested. So regardless with the loss of the CSP the actual wage increase they are advertising is, in reality, far less then what is being said.

[rudder]

Aswell, even with what your saying that it is a 24.6 % raise, the CSP previously would give a 20% raise... so that's would still mean at year end In terms of cash in hand, we will only walk away with 4.6% more money in my pocket. SORRY but its pritty hard to get excited about that.

Aswell, what your saying about the S and P 500 being up 10.8%.. that's basically nothing, considering inflation is still sitting at close to 5% and currently increasing.. that's extremely meager gains. And if we can only expect a potential 10.8% return with the new WSP program, then that's even worse then the 15% that I had predicted in earlier posts. It's not alot of money. And it is completely up to the stock market, which faces MANY risks over the comming years. And it is far less then the up too 120% returns the CSP offered

I am not saying we will not recieve more financial competition with this new AIP, we absolutely WILL. However with the loss of the CSP it will be far less then advertised. It's a very subtle and sneaky way for the company to save money, which is why they did away with the CSP program. If the CSP program is worse then the tsfa and RRSP as you guys are stating. Why would yo company make it a priority to remove it as an option?

As an outsider you can correct me if I’m wrong but the company match was taxed at the source as income, was it not?
So, if the company match was 20,000 eg; you pay the taxes as though you earned it as income, so not a true cash in hand like you stated. It was essentially a 20,000 raise delayed by a year but your paycheque was deducted as though you received already. Is this not what we are talking about?
Now, the new set up, you get a 9.1% raise tacked on to the pay scale and 10% put in to a retirement type savings plan without the need to contribute your own 10%, therefore you get to keep that money in your account and do what you want with it, eg; invest it throughout the year, not waiting for it to vest as a lump sump.
Seems like a better set up to me, the money is all there just not a lump sum.

Your exactly right, the CSP used to be essentially a 20% raise to be taxed and treated as income. Where as now we will get the 15.5% raise plusb9.1% into the payscale. So a 24.6% raise.. but realistically for those that put the full 20% into the CSP previously will only actually be receiving 4.6% more at years end.. not much to get excited about. The real gains will be entirely dependent on how well this new WSP program performs, and as I have said the Stock market is not doing well and it is expected to not perform well for sometime. So I dont see a huge return comming from that WSP. Aswell remember that money is locked away and invested. So regardless with the loss of the CSP the actual wage increase they are advertising is, in reality, far less then what is being said.

I thought that the WJA MEC/Negots Team said that they were going to investigate a CWIPP option for the 10%?

[Tolip]

As an outsider you can correct me if I’m wrong but the company match was taxed at the source as income, was it not?
So, if the company match was 20,000 eg; you pay the taxes as though you earned it as income, so not a true cash in hand like you stated. It was essentially a 20,000 raise delayed by a year but your paycheque was deducted as though you received already. Is this not what we are talking about?
Now, the new set up, you get a 9.1% raise tacked on to the pay scale and 10% put in to a retirement type savings plan without the need to contribute your own 10%, therefore you get to keep that money in your account and do what you want with it, eg; invest it throughout the year, not waiting for it to vest as a lump sump.
Seems like a better set up to me, the money is all there just not a lump sum.

Your exactly right, the CSP used to be essentially a 20% raise to be taxed and treated as income. Where as now we will get the 15.5% raise plusb9.1% into the payscale. So a 24.6% raise.. but realistically for those that put the full 20% into the CSP previously will only actually be receiving 4.6% more at years end.. not much to get excited about. The real gains will be entirely dependent on how well this new WSP program performs, and as I have said the Stock market is not doing well and it is expected to not perform well for sometime. So I dont see a huge return comming from that WSP. Aswell remember that money is locked away and invested. So regardless with the loss of the CSP the actual wage increase they are advertising is, in reality, far less then what is being said.

I thought that the WJA MEC/Negots Team said that they were going to investigate a CWIPP option for the 10%?

Honestly all the details with the new WSP program are really hard to follow. But the latest I herd, as the gentleman mentioned above, is that the 9.1% goes into the payscale's. I'm alittle confused as to why they word it that way and not just state that they are giving us a 24.6% raise. I'm sure there is more sneakyness going on there, but not sure as to what . What is the CWIPP? that again is more terminology I have not even herd being used yet

[rudder]

https://cwipp.ca/

[Tolip]

Your exactly right, the CSP used to be essentially a 20% raise to be taxed and treated as income. Where as now we will get the 15.5% raise plusb9.1% into the payscale. So a 24.6% raise.. but realistically for those that put the full 20% into the CSP previously will only actually be receiving 4.6% more at years end.. not much to get excited about. The real gains will be entirely dependent on how well this new WSP program performs, and as I have said the Stock market is not doing well and it is expected to not perform well for sometime. So I dont see a huge return comming from that WSP. Aswell remember that money is locked away and invested. So regardless with the loss of the CSP the actual wage increase they are advertising is, in reality, far less then what is being said.

I thought that the WJA MEC/Negots Team said that they were going to investigate a CWIPP option for the 10%?

Honestly all the details with the new WSP program are really hard to follow. But the latest I herd, as the gentleman mentioned above, is that the 9.1% goes into the payscale's. I'm alittle confused as to why they word it that way and not just state that they are giving us a 24.6% raise. I'm sure there is more sneakyness going on there, but not sure as to what . What is the CWIPP? that again is more terminology I have not even herd being used yet

Disregard I think you mean the pension plan. And again, the last I herd the 10% intbink you are referring to goes to WSP. The pension plan, honestly I havnt herd many details come out on that.

[cdnavater]

Aswell, even with what your saying that it is a 24.6 % raise, the CSP previously would give a 20% raise... so that's would still mean at year end In terms of cash in hand, we will only walk away with 4.6% more money in my pocket. SORRY but its pritty hard to get excited about that.

Aswell, what your saying about the S and P 500 being up 10.8%.. that's basically nothing, considering inflation is still sitting at close to 5% and currently increasing.. that's extremely meager gains. And if we can only expect a potential 10.8% return with the new WSP program, then that's even worse then the 15% that I had predicted in earlier posts. It's not alot of money. And it is completely up to the stock market, which faces MANY risks over the comming years. And it is far less then the up too 120% returns the CSP offered

I am not saying we will not recieve more financial competition with this new AIP, we absolutely WILL. However with the loss of the CSP it will be far less then advertised. It's a very subtle and sneaky way for the company to save money, which is why they did away with the CSP program. If the CSP program is worse then the tsfa and RRSP as you guys are stating. Why would yo company make it a priority to remove it as an option?

As an outsider you can correct me if I’m wrong but the company match was taxed at the source as income, was it not?
So, if the company match was 20,000 eg; you pay the taxes as though you earned it as income, so not a true cash in hand like you stated. It was essentially a 20,000 raise delayed by a year but your paycheque was deducted as though you received already. Is this not what we are talking about?
Now, the new set up, you get a 9.1% raise tacked on to the pay scale and 10% put in to a retirement type savings plan without the need to contribute your own 10%, therefore you get to keep that money in your account and do what you want with it, eg; invest it throughout the year, not waiting for it to vest as a lump sump.
Seems like a better set up to me, the money is all there just not a lump sum.

Your exactly right, the CSP used to be essentially a 20% raise to be taxed and treated as income. Where as now we will get the 15.5% raise plusb9.1% into the payscale. So a 24.6% raise.. but realistically for those that put the full 20% into the CSP previously will only actually be receiving 4.6% more at years end.. not much to get excited about. The real gains will be entirely dependent on how well this new WSP program performs, and as I have said the Stock market is not doing well and it is expected to not perform well for sometime. So I dont see a huge return comming from that WSP. Aswell remember that money is locked away and invested. So regardless with the loss of the CSP the actual wage increase they are advertising is, in reality, far less then what is being said.

When you do your math and come up with 4.6, you’re leaving out the 10% the company is still contributing, is that intentional?


Edit: He even had me confused, he is taking the 9.1 off the 15%, the 15% is new money, the 9.1 was always there just now in a different form, no need to subtract. I do suspect he is subtracting it because it is not matched anymore but it’s not a simple one to one. 9.1 matched was taxable at capital gains rate I believe, now at income tax rates will vary per pilot but is NOT a straight loss of 9.1 company match when you factor the taxes, my guess you lose 5%. Either way still a net gain and better take home. Not to mention the risk of losing it all if left to your own devices, I suspect most pilot are like me and less than financial savvy than needs be. If I played the markets, I would retire penniless.

[maverick12]

As an outsider you can correct me if I’m wrong but the company match was taxed at the source as income, was it not?
So, if the company match was 20,000 eg; you pay the taxes as though you earned it as income, so not a true cash in hand like you stated. It was essentially a 20,000 raise delayed by a year but your paycheque was deducted as though you received already. Is this not what we are talking about?
Now, the new set up, you get a 9.1% raise tacked on to the pay scale and 10% put in to a retirement type savings plan without the need to contribute your own 10%, therefore you get to keep that money in your account and do what you want with it, eg; invest it throughout the year, not waiting for it to vest as a lump sump.
Seems like a better set up to me, the money is all there just not a lump sum.

Your exactly right, the CSP used to be essentially a 20% raise to be taxed and treated as income. Where as now we will get the 15.5% raise plusb9.1% into the payscale. So a 24.6% raise.. but realistically for those that put the full 20% into the CSP previously will only actually be receiving 4.6% more at years end.. not much to get excited about. The real gains will be entirely dependent on how well this new WSP program performs, and as I have said the Stock market is not doing well and it is expected to not perform well for sometime. So I dont see a huge return comming from that WSP. Aswell remember that money is locked away and invested. So regardless with the loss of the CSP the actual wage increase they are advertising is, in reality, far less then what is being said.

When you do your math and come up with 4.6, you’re leaving out the 10% the company is still contributing, is that intentional?

I can assure you that his stupidity, lack of grammar and comprehension are not intentional. Even scarier to think he’s possibly certified to fly a 737.