Cancel IFR? Who? Me?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:55 am

Small rant here.
Why will some folks not cancel an IFR when they can? TC, Gonzo? Oh, yes, and certain %^&*skin trainers? VMC conditions, and we're out there doing holds so these guys can "practice" their "full procedures"?? This happens on a fairly regular basis. A certain small Beech on a bag-run will do a full procedure in total VMC....you could cancel, and still do your thing? Others are on the ground...unable to launch untill after you clear. Or maybe you didn't know that?
And, there must be a problem with taxiway Bravo at YXL? Seems everybody wants to use Alpha? We could use Bravo for a trailer park I guess, but if landing traffic had the manners to use Bravo...ah forget it!
We were behind a TC Citation going into YWG last week....five miles behind him.....and he landed in the first hundred feet....and taxied all the way to the end of 13, before clearing....at a snail's pace? Why? We cleared at 18/36 while he was still at least 1500 feet from clearing?
I toss my IFR at the first chance I get. So others can get a clearance. Why do so many lack these simpe good manners?

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:55 am

Some companies do not allow there people to cancel

Unable Due Traffic · Post by **Unable Due Traffic** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:25 pm

I hear you Doc..... cancelling makes my job a hell of a lot easier too.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:27 pm

200 hr wonder...name one. Other than AC, WJ, Jazz etc. NO company would want you flying a full procedure and burning gas if you could nip in and land! That's just toatl bull shit!

2R · Post by 2R » Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:28 pm

All you can do is set a good example and hope that good airmanship will catch on.
Practice random acts of kindness and eventually one comes back

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 3:37 pm

Doc wrote:200 hr wonder...name one. Other than AC, WJ, Jazz etc. NO company would want you flying a full procedure and burning gas if you could nip in and land! That's just toatl bull shit!

Well Doc. Up till about 6 months ago our op spec required full IFR procedures in the U.S. since then I have had it changed so we can do VFR in the U.S. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only company that was bound by those types of restrictions. And it's entirely possible that other companies U.S or Canadian could be bound by similar restrictions that TC has decided to impose for whatever reason.

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:30 pm

Dust Devil wrote:
Up till about 6 months ago our op spec required full IFR procedures in the U.S. since then I have had it changed so we can do VFR in the U.S.

Well than your company is just gay for having this ruling, if its vfr there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON not to cancel, I don't care what a manual says.

P.S- Doc next I go to YXL and hear you, I am going to request a 45 mile final for saxub and slow to about 120 just for you K

I hear that fuel is pretty cheap these days

Scuba_Steve · Post by **Scuba_Steve** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:04 pm

I hear you doc I've run into a few Bag running beech's lately that seem to want to hold onto that IFR like its their lifeline. while holding up 1 or 2 other turbines in the process. we managed to cancel both times and beat the guy in VFR. I was hoping the guy would get the hint, but perhaps not.

Then again perhaps they are required to hold onto the IFR, if so thats a really crappy ops spec especially around YXL.

Most of the people who operate around NWO are great about helping each other out, no matter which company

It just takes one person to gum up the whole works.

Cheers

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:58 pm

flyinhigh wrote: ABSOLUTELY NO REASON

Ya very true. I mean to hell with the law. that's not a good reason at all.

The pilot pool out there truly frightens me.

altiplano · Post by **altiplano** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:58 pm

Pratt · Post by **Pratt** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:44 pm

[quote="flyinhigh"]Dust Devil wrote:
Up till about 6 months ago our op spec required full IFR procedures in the U.S. since then I have had it changed so we can do VFR in the U.S.

Well than your company is just gay for having this ruling, if its vfr there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON not to cancel, I don't care what a manual says.end quote]

flyinhigh, well I guess that is it, the Company is Gay. So I guess they should apply to TC for an exemption of being gay should they? Get a grip, if their ops spec says something then they have to abide by it. To do otherwise is breaking the regs or ops specs as they are written for that company.

Hornblower · Post by **Hornblower** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:22 am

So, maybe I am missing something. I don’t fly IFR, and typically conflict with IFR traffic when on floats is not a problem where I am, but why do you need to cancel in order to conduct a visual procedure. The way I see it is: once vmc, why not proceed directly to land?? (of course conforming with other VFR traffic as required) No need to cancel to do this is there?

Scuba_Steve · Post by **Scuba_Steve** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:41 am

The problem is when you are in a non radar envioronment, they need you to report down and clear, OR Cancel IFR (thereby assuming responsibility for traffic seperataion) before they can clear the following traffic for an approach. They tend to want 5 or more minutes between aircraft on approach so if someone is doing the approach in VMC weather they are holding up poeple behind them who may be a few minutes behind. Thereby putting them in a hold. Where as if you cancel you can safetly land the a/c and let the person behind you commence the approach and cancel if they are holding someone up.

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:55 am

Why don't YOU cancel and go in VFR below him? Simple - yes?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:20 pm

Because, oh, wise monkey.....we cant get below 12500 till we get a clearance.....which we cant get till the guy below cancels? Or, I'd be diving for the corn and getting below everybody...hehehehe!
And I have cancelled many times when traffic ahead remains IFR....flight conditions permitting.

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:39 pm

I thought you old timers knew the tricks of the trade?

You said they're in VMC conditions, Old Wise Monkey says you can get below 12500 when the baron is shooting an approach into YHD or when b e a r skin trainer is beacon outbound at 6000. Request a reasonable holding altitude....like 7000 then cancel through 12 5 or whenever you "see"

the ground.

I've never heard of YWG CTR giving holds above 12500 when its not congested???

Another way of avoiding the "stack" going into YXL on lower overcast (3000AGL) days is to get under the 60nm zone (12500) and truck on into the zone VFR.

MOH is paying for the fuel anyhow - correct?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:59 am

Ah, the monkey is indeed wise. And I have way too many gray hairs not to have learned the "tricks"....however, even though MOH is buying the gas, I think it's bad form to burn it if you dont have to? Always prided myself in the fact I can do most trips on less fuel than the next guy! And while some may can the plan above the clouds...not I! If you can cancel at 12500...nobody should be hanging on to an IFR...? If I can go without filing in the first place...I do.
Going into YXL last week, I "canceled" at 16000 feet! Centre said.."I dont think so, buddy! Check you altitude!" I says.."Ya caught me looking out the window!"

Scuba_Steve · Post by **Scuba_Steve** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:21 am

there are also quite often times that th cieling is 1000-3000 feet or so and it isn't possible to get below to cancel untill on approach.

arctic navigator · Post by **arctic navigator** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:30 am

After that military herc crashed in the arctic conducting a night visual approach I think a lot of companies followed suit with the military and do not allow night visual approaches... this I can understand to a certain degree... however, if its screamin VFR and light out there should be no reason not to cancel...

and at that... if you cant cancel for some reason (company policy etc.) then go visual direct the button and land asap instead of doing the 5 mile circuit that so many are famous for.

obviously if the weather, aircraft, or crew experience is not condusive to this then you have to do what you have to do...

groundtoflightdeck · Post by **groundtoflightdeck** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:09 am

I know of at least 1 company that operates bag runs 703 where the aircraft must be on an IFR flight plan at all times as per the ops manual; however, you can cancel the IFR clearance and maintain alerting services, some places no one seems to know its an option.

split s · Post by **split s** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:19 am

You can still do the approach procedure VFR, so cancel and do whatever you are going to do so the next guy can get cleared the approach and get VFR to do the same!