Who should pay for the extra seat for large passengers?

[Chelsea Handler]

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/plus ... index.html

No standard around the globe, how should airlines make policies when another seat is required.

[Tbayer2021]

It's a difficult subject to address because at the crux of the problem, they're essentially asking to socialize the added cost they present to an airline if they don't have to pay for an extra seat. We all know an airline isn't just going to absorb this. So if any sort of legislation that forces airlines to only charge them for a single seat, yet provide an extra one, will result in everyone else's ticket prices being raised to cover for it.

I sympathize with individuals with chronic conditions that have to spend their life on multiple types of medications that when combined with their illness, makes weight management or loss a near impossibility. But I have zero sympathy when someone's overweight condition is the result of not being able to put the spoon down. Unfortunately, the latter seems to be the most common one.

[digits_]

Most of them likely pay more for extra food. Pay extra for plus sized clothing. I'm not sure why airline travel would be different.

For people with chronic conditions, I would suggest that the extra fees could be recovered via health insurance plans. That way some checks and balances will be in place to prevent abuse, and you spread the extra cost a bit more. We don't charge wheel chair users extra for the chair usage privilege either.

[Inverted2]

You’re taking up 2 seats. You pay for 2 seats. If I go to a hotel with 2 kids I’d like 2 rooms but I don’t expect the hotel to pay for it. Plus no one wants to sit beside someone who is shoe horned into a seat with their blubber pressed against you for the whole flight.

[rookiepilot]

“Southwest Airlines stipulates that passengers who require extra room can purchase another seat at the time of booking and claim the money back after contacting customer service.”

I would like extra room on all my flights. I require it to be more comfortable. Can I do this too?

If this policy is only available to “people of size”, (how is that defined?) thats seems like discrimination. Maybe someone thin should sue.

[Crewbunk]

For people with chronic conditions, I would suggest that the extra fees could be recovered via health insurance plans. That way some checks and balances will be in place to prevent abuse, and you spread the extra cost a bit more. We don't charge wheel chair users extra for the chair usage privilege either.

That already exists. If a person has a medical condition which makes their life harder than the average Canadian, they can apply for a disability tax credit. Right now, it’s just shy of $9000/yr.

Forms are filled out. The patient describes how his condition makes his life harder, then a physician signs the form and it’s sent into the CRA for assessment.

In spite of what most people think only very very very few people are obese due to a medical condition and not diet and lifestyle. A physician would know the difference. That being the check and balance I suppose.

[cdnavater]

You’re taking up 2 seats. You pay for 2 seats. If I go to a hotel with 2 kids I’d like 2 rooms but I don’t expect the hotel to pay for it. Plus no one wants to sit beside someone who is shoe horned into a seat with their blubber pressed against you for the whole flight.

Been there, it was disgusting and extremely uncomfortable. The FAs did absolutely nothing, even though there were other middle seats available they didn’t want to offend this extremely obese person. My leg was half covered by the spill over and thank goodness it was a shorter flight, 2 hours felt like 5 however.
This comes up from time to time, if you’re obese, whatever the reason you’re not buying a smart car that you can’t fit in to, if you take up two seat you buy two seats!

[lownslow]

I’m not morbidly obese but I’m very tall and in a cheap airline seat I often find the pitch is almost exactly the length of my thigh bone so I ‘spill over’ the other way. Sometimes I worry that the person in front of me might feel my knee against their seat and I don’t want to be a bother to anyone else but I also don’t spring for business class either.

Am I the same as an overly wide passenger or different? I don’t think any of my actions led to me being this way, maybe I could have backed off on the milk a bit as a kid? Started drinking coffee earlier? There’s nothing I can do about it now though, as far as I know.

[Meatservo]

Interesting debate. I am both quite tall and a bit overweight. I barely fit in a normal economy-size seat; I would say the extra weight makes ME uncomfortable, but hasn't got to the point where it makes anyone else uncomfortable. It's more my height. My knees DO dig into the back of the seat in front of me if I sit with my legs perfectly fore-and-aft. My knee will stick out into the aisle and gets bashed by the drinks trolley. I would be mortified if other people had to be uncomfortable because of my inability to control my appetite. I mean, a person has the right to be as big as they want, I suppose. But you either fit or you do not fit, whether it's into a seat on a public conveyance or a pair of jeans.

I'm not sure I really buy the whole "glandular" or "medication" argument. I mean, sure, I guess there are hormonal or medical phenomena that make it difficult to control your appetite: but the fact is, that extra mass didn't come from no-where; and we all know it got there through your mouth and was put in your mouth by your hands. It was food. Food you ate. And I'm saying this as a person who struggles to control his weight. I love food. Sometimes I have to make a conscious effort to eat fewer calories than I'm using, so my mass will stop increasing and I can continue to fit into things like seats.

On the other hand, the airlines know damn well that an "average" sized person in one of their economy seats will be touching an "average" sized person in the seat next to them. All animals have an instinctive unwillingness to be in physical contact with strangers. We all have to quell this instinct to a certain extent in order to behave in a civilized fashion in "economy" seating. It is stressful, and exacts a psychological toll.

I am a (moderate) socialist at heart, and I beleive that one of the roles of a civilized society is to pool resources in order to mitigate peoples' misfortunes: whether those misfortunes are due to uncontrollable medical factors, or environmental factors, or bad luck. I'm not sure I consider things that one does to oneself to be strictly "misfortune". I'm not sure I regard obesity as uncontrollable.

I'm on the fence. It's so difficult, sometimes, to judge where common sense ends and bigotry begins.

[photofly]

If this policy is only available to “people of size”, (how is that defined?) thats seems like discrimination. Maybe someone thin should sue.

Size isn't a protected characteristic. So it's quite legal to discriminate against people because of it.

However since men are on average larger than women, you would have to be careful to avoid indirect discrimination on the basis of sex, which is a protected characteristic.

[rookiepilot]

On the other hand, the airlines know damn well that an "average" sized person in one of their economy seats will be touching an "average" sized person in the seat next to them. All animals have an instinctive unwillingness to be in physical contact with strangers. We all have to quell this instinct to a certain extent in order to behave in a civilized fashion in "economy" seating. It is stressful, and exacts a psychological toll.

And when that stress, made worse every year by the airlines, combines with someone’s extremely bad day for other reasons, travel related and / or otherwise, and combined with the legion of untreated, severely underfunded mental health conditions out there (I read 7 million Canadians struggle with mental health at some level, it’s probably higher) — and then that person loses it on an overcrowded airplane with a bitchy FA, overheated cause the Captain is too darn cheap to run any air during ground and taxiing to save a bit of fuel (yes, this happens, now taxiing out on one engine is a thing) —what does the crowd do?

Laugh, egg on untrained police as they take the person off, and video the whole thing. Yup, another video to watch. And clamour for a jail sentence. (Yeah, see this site )

Shame , shame. And disgusting.

We have collectively become a very mean society.

Airlines. Stop pushing people to the edge, and maybe they won’t break.

[Meatservo]

And when that stress, made worse every year by the airlines, combines with someone’s extremely bad day for other reasons, travel related and / or otherwise, and combined with the legion of untreated, severely underfunded mental health conditions out there (I read 7 million Canadians struggle with mental health at some level, it’s probably higher) — and then that person loses it on an overcrowded airplane with a bitchy FA, overheated cause the Captain is too darn cheap to run any air during ground and taxiing to save a bit of fuel (yes, this happens, now taxiing out on one engine is a thing) —what does the crowd do?

This actually leads me into an issue I have started to find incredibly annoying on Air Canada: Once their recorded passenger-safety video is over, they play adverts over the cabin P.A. and on the screens. You can't turn it off, and you can't tune it out, because they've already told you not to wear headphones that aren't jacked into the aircraft P.A. So there you are, strapped down, and forced to endure being advertized at with no ability to choose otherwise. I find it borderline abusive. I can't believe they are so tone-deaf as to think anyone is going to enjoy this or react to it positively. It makes me really angry, at a time where everyone is just a little bit more likely to be already really angry.

[-42]

What a disaster this world has become. Go on a diet for gods sake.

[rookiepilot]

And when that stress, made worse every year by the airlines, combines with someone’s extremely bad day for other reasons, travel related and / or otherwise, and combined with the legion of untreated, severely underfunded mental health conditions out there (I read 7 million Canadians struggle with mental health at some level, it’s probably higher) — and then that person loses it on an overcrowded airplane with a bitchy FA, overheated cause the Captain is too darn cheap to run any air during ground and taxiing to save a bit of fuel (yes, this happens, now taxiing out on one engine is a thing) —what does the crowd do?

This actually leads me into an issue I have started to find incredibly annoying on Air Canada: Once their recorded passenger-safety video is over, they play adverts over the cabin P.A. and on the screens. You can't turn it off, and you can't tune it out, because they've already told you not to wear headphones that aren't jacked into the aircraft P.A. So there you are, strapped down, and forced to endure being advertized at with no ability to choose otherwise. I find it borderline abusive. I can't believe they are so tone-deaf as to think anyone is going to enjoy this or react to it positively. It makes me really angry, at a time where everyone is just a little bit more likely to be already really angry.

+1.

And this contributes to aviation safety exactly how, at a time when I am looking for the nearest exit door and thinking about egress if the pilots turn out to be having a really bad day, and it’s necessary?

That IS what we as pax are supposed to do, right?

Please AvCanada how (very loudly played) Ads helps those who fly every 5 years at that particular time.

Tell me. I’ll wait.

[digits_]

And when that stress, made worse every year by the airlines, combines with someone’s extremely bad day for other reasons, travel related and / or otherwise, and combined with the legion of untreated, severely underfunded mental health conditions out there (I read 7 million Canadians struggle with mental health at some level, it’s probably higher) — and then that person loses it on an overcrowded airplane with a bitchy FA, overheated cause the Captain is too darn cheap to run any air during ground and taxiing to save a bit of fuel (yes, this happens, now taxiing out on one engine is a thing) —what does the crowd do?

This actually leads me into an issue I have started to find incredibly annoying on Air Canada: Once their recorded passenger-safety video is over, they play adverts over the cabin P.A. and on the screens. You can't turn it off, and you can't tune it out, because they've already told you not to wear headphones that aren't jacked into the aircraft P.A. So there you are, strapped down, and forced to endure being advertized at with no ability to choose otherwise. I find it borderline abusive. I can't believe they are so tone-deaf as to think anyone is going to enjoy this or react to it positively. It makes me really angry, at a time where everyone is just a little bit more likely to be already really angry.

+1.

And this contributes to aviation safety exactly how, at a time when I am looking for the nearest exit door and thinking about egress if the pilots turn out to be having a really bad day, and it’s necessary?

That IS what we as pax are supposed to do, right?

Please AvCanada how (very loudly played) Ads helps those who fly every 5 years at that particular time.

Tell me. I’ll wait.

Yikes. Just when you think things can't get worse. I don't even think Ryanair does this.

[cdnavater]

And when that stress, made worse every year by the airlines, combines with someone’s extremely bad day for other reasons, travel related and / or otherwise, and combined with the legion of untreated, severely underfunded mental health conditions out there (I read 7 million Canadians struggle with mental health at some level, it’s probably higher) — and then that person loses it on an overcrowded airplane with a bitchy FA, overheated cause the Captain is too darn cheap to run any air during ground and taxiing to save a bit of fuel (yes, this happens, now taxiing out on one engine is a thing) —what does the crowd do?

This actually leads me into an issue I have started to find incredibly annoying on Air Canada: Once their recorded passenger-safety video is over, they play adverts over the cabin P.A. and on the screens. You can't turn it off, and you can't tune it out, because they've already told you not to wear headphones that aren't jacked into the aircraft P.A. So there you are, strapped down, and forced to endure being advertized at with no ability to choose otherwise. I find it borderline abusive. I can't believe they are so tone-deaf as to think anyone is going to enjoy this or react to it positively. It makes me really angry, at a time where everyone is just a little bit more likely to be already really angry.

For what it’s worth, as soon as the safety demonstration is done, my earphones are back in. It’s only required for the demonstration, they don’t make another announcement saying it’s ok to wear them again, therefore it’s ok as soon as the reason to not is over.

[cdnavater]

On the other hand, the airlines know damn well that an "average" sized person in one of their economy seats will be touching an "average" sized person in the seat next to them. All animals have an instinctive unwillingness to be in physical contact with strangers. We all have to quell this instinct to a certain extent in order to behave in a civilized fashion in "economy" seating. It is stressful, and exacts a psychological toll.

And when that stress, made worse every year by the airlines, combines with someone’s extremely bad day for other reasons, travel related and / or otherwise, and combined with the legion of untreated, severely underfunded mental health conditions out there (I read 7 million Canadians struggle with mental health at some level, it’s probably higher) — and then that person loses it on an overcrowded airplane with a bitchy FA, overheated cause the Captain is too darn cheap to run any air during ground and taxiing to save a bit of fuel (yes, this happens, now taxiing out on one engine is a thing) —what does the crowd do?

Laugh, egg on untrained police as they take the person off, and video the whole thing. Yup, another video to watch. And clamour for a jail sentence. (Yeah, see this site )

Shame , shame. And disgusting.

We have collectively become a very mean society.

Airlines. Stop pushing people to the edge, and maybe they won’t break.

Curious, is the FA bitchy because of the angry passengers taking there frustrations out on them or were they bitchy when they were hired?
Also, what airline are you on that doesn’t have any air on a single engine taxi?
Most jets that I am familiar with require an APU to start the other engine, if they are on one engine, then the APU is on and providing cabin air which is typically more effective then both engines running would be.

[C-GGGQ]

For the record I’m 5’9” and 250-260lbs. On some airlines my knees are touching (looking at you rouge) but on no airline am I spilling over onto my neighbour. I’m big.
I need to lose weight. I can still crawl into a Navajo or King Air though. At the size we are talking to need two seats its absolutely a choice. Before we mention glandular or thyroid issues, I have no thyroid. Had it removed so yes taking off the weight is harder (not impossible) for me. I’m still not 300-500 lbs

[all_ramped_up]

You take up two seats, you pay for two seats.

Why make it more complicated than that.

[digits_]

You take up two seats, you pay for two seats.

Why make it more complicated than that.

You need to use a wheel chair, you pay for a wheel chair.
You need assistance and priority boarding because of mobility issues, you pay for it.
You're blind and need a guide through the terminal, you pay for it.

Why make it more complicated than that.

[Squaretail]

The problem wouldn't be so bad if they haven't been shrinking the seats for as long as I've been riding on airliners. I've been the same size for the last 20 years. The seats have gotten worse. Everyone is spilling out of their seats now. It used to be that the 150 was cramped and the 737 spacious. Now its the other way around. Maybe if we could stop shrinking the room for the passengers first, then we could worry about who is too big.

[Crewbunk]

The problem wouldn't be so bad if they haven't been shrinking the seats for as long as I've been riding on airliners. I've been the same size for the last 20 years. The seats have gotten worse. Everyone is spilling out of their seats now. It used to be that the 150 was cramped and the 737 spacious. Now its the other way around. Maybe if we could stop shrinking the room for the passengers first, then we could worry about who is too big.

The seats of the average 777, 787, 737 Economy seat are exactly the same width as the first 707 that flew passengers in 1958.

Passengers however, are considerably larger.

[rookiepilot]

The problem wouldn't be so bad if they haven't been shrinking the seats for as long as I've been riding on airliners. I've been the same size for the last 20 years. The seats have gotten worse. Everyone is spilling out of their seats now. It used to be that the 150 was cramped and the 737 spacious. Now its the other way around. Maybe if we could stop shrinking the room for the passengers first, then we could worry about who is too big.

The seats of the average 777, 787, 737 Economy seat are exactly the same width as the first 707 that flew passengers in 1958.

Passengers however, are considerably larger.

Right.

“A spokesman for Boeing claimed that "single-aisle airplane seat widths have remained constant for over 60 years. They are the same width since the 707 opened up the world for economy class passengers".

Research, however, suggests otherwise. In 1985, according to the Consumers Union, none of America's big four airlines offered less than 19 inches of width. Now, 17 inches is the norm, and United goes as low as 16.”

[rookiepilot]

On the other hand, the airlines know damn well that an "average" sized person in one of their economy seats will be touching an "average" sized person in the seat next to them. All animals have an instinctive unwillingness to be in physical contact with strangers. We all have to quell this instinct to a certain extent in order to behave in a civilized fashion in "economy" seating. It is stressful, and exacts a psychological toll.

And when that stress, made worse every year by the airlines, combines with someone’s extremely bad day for other reasons, travel related and / or otherwise, and combined with the legion of untreated, severely underfunded mental health conditions out there (I read 7 million Canadians struggle with mental health at some level, it’s probably higher) — and then that person loses it on an overcrowded airplane with a bitchy FA, overheated cause the Captain is too darn cheap to run any air during ground and taxiing to save a bit of fuel (yes, this happens, now taxiing out on one engine is a thing) —what does the crowd do?

Laugh, egg on untrained police as they take the person off, and video the whole thing. Yup, another video to watch. And clamour for a jail sentence. (Yeah, see this site )

Shame , shame. And disgusting.

We have collectively become a very mean society.

Airlines. Stop pushing people to the edge, and maybe they won’t break.

Curious, is the FA bitchy because of the angry passengers taking there frustrations out on them or were they bitchy when they were hired?
Also, what airline are you on that doesn’t have any air on a single engine taxi?
Most jets that I am familiar with require an APU to start the other engine, if they are on one engine, then the APU is on and providing cabin air which is typically more effective then both engines running would be.

Porter.

Did this last week. All were roasting. Mercifully a short taxi.

[Beefitarian]

The problem wouldn't be so bad if they haven't been shrinking the seats for as long as I've been riding on airliners. I've been the same size for the last 20 years. The seats have gotten worse. Everyone is spilling out of their seats now. It used to be that the 150 was cramped and the 737 spacious. Now its the other way around. Maybe if we could stop shrinking the room for the passengers first, then we could worry about who is too big.

The seats of the average 777, 787, 737 Economy seat are exactly the same width as the first 707 that flew passengers in 1958.

Passengers however, are considerably larger.

Right.

“A spokesman for Boeing claimed that "single-aisle airplane seat widths have remained constant for over 60 years. They are the same width since the 707 opened up the world for economy class passengers".

Research, however, suggests otherwise. In 1985, according to the Consumers Union, none of America's big four airlines offered less than 19 inches of width. Now, 17 inches is the norm, and United goes as low as 16.”

A trip to Evergreen air and space museum can clear up any confusion about this. They have glorious old airline seats around the museum you can sit in. They are like sitting on a giant luxurious chair.

I could probably share one with my wife who is not petite.