Negotiations

[Turboprops]

And the second there is, in comes the ALPA lawyers for Jazz pilots to fight it from every angle available to them.

Lol the lawyer’s coming in to do what? They couldn’t even get their lawyers to get on the flow grievance till last second. And look at what’s happening to flow after the lawyers supposedly did something? Nothing

Everyone I talked to on the line has lost hope on what ALPA could accomplish to enforce the contract.

What do you mean they didn't get on it until the last second? There was no expiry date to file that grievance. And now that it is, it will take time to work it's way through. Nothing happens overnight, particularly when you need to get a mediator to do it.

People have an unrealsitc expectation of how these things work, and how they play out. It isn't an episode of Law and Order.

Here’s what ALPA sent out in the Jan update
“ However, the MEC only has a small window for a negotiated settlement before we lose access to other resolution recourses available under the Canada Labour Code.”
So yes, there’s an expiry date which resources will be lost.

Unrealistic expectations? I expect the contract to be followed by both parties, not just the part where it benefits the company and ignore the ones benefiting pilots.

Nothing happens overnight sure, but we’re never getting our AC seniority back and it’s been 6 months into the year, no resolution in sight, while AC just cut back Jazz hiring again. At this point no one has faith in the union anymore.

If Jazz gives you a 50% pay cut starting tomorrow, I wonder if you’d be happily waiting for a mediator while patting the union on their back for filing a grievance.

[truedude]

Lol the lawyer’s coming in to do what? They couldn’t even get their lawyers to get on the flow grievance till last second. And look at what’s happening to flow after the lawyers supposedly did something? Nothing

Everyone I talked to on the line has lost hope on what ALPA could accomplish to enforce the contract.

What do you mean they didn't get on it until the last second? There was no expiry date to file that grievance. And now that it is, it will take time to work it's way through. Nothing happens overnight, particularly when you need to get a mediator to do it.

People have an unrealsitc expectation of how these things work, and how they play out. It isn't an episode of Law and Order.

Here’s what ALPA sent out in the Jan update
“ However, the MEC only has a small window for a negotiated settlement before we lose access to other resolution recourses available under the Canada Labour Code.”
So yes, there’s an expiry date which resources will be lost.

Unrealistic expectations? I expect the contract to be followed by both parties, not just the part where it benefits the company and ignore the ones benefiting pilots.

Nothing happens overnight sure, but we’re never getting our AC seniority back and it’s been 6 months into the year, no resolution in sight, while AC just cut back Jazz hiring again. At this point no one has faith in the union anymore.

If Jazz gives you a 50% pay cut starting tomorrow, I wonder if you’d be happily waiting for a mediator while patting the union on their back for filing a grievance.

First, Jazz doesn't control AC hiring. Two, you can leave anytime. Three, there were more than one way they could have chosen to take the grievance, and one of those options expired. It was also the least likely one to succeed.

If you are unhappy about how AC is respecting the contract, why would you want to go there... Because all you are getting is a preview of what the rest of your career will look like at AC.

[Turboprops]

First, Jazz doesn't control AC hiring. Two, you can leave anytime. Three, there were more than one way they could have chosen to take the grievance, and one of those options expired. It was also the least likely one to succeed.

If you are unhappy about how AC is respecting the contract, why would you want to go there... Because all you are getting is a preview of what the rest of your career will look like at AC.

If Jazz doesn’t control AC hiring, then why did the union tell us this is such a good deal for people that want to go to AC? Good job ALPA selling us something that’s not enforceable.

Two, the classic blaming the victim eh? You don’t like how you’re being abused? Why don’t you leave, let’s not blame the bully but blame the victim. Also side note, I will be leaving, just like the other hundreds of Jazz pilots with ATPL. Doesn’t make Jazz right, also doesn’t make what ALPA did right.

Please don’t act like Jazz has no fault here. If they know they can’t control AC hiring, why did they sell me the 60% flow during interview AND put it in the contract? Last I checked my contract is with Jazz. And you think Jazz respects the contract any better than AC? If there’s bs everywhere you go, why not go to the one that pays more? You can stay and keep praising the union while the rest of us move on

[CaptDukeNukem]

First, Jazz doesn't control AC hiring. Two, you can leave anytime. Three, there were more than one way they could have chosen to take the grievance, and one of those options expired. It was also the least likely one to succeed.

If you are unhappy about how AC is respecting the contract, why would you want to go there... Because all you are getting is a preview of what the rest of your career will look like at AC.

If Jazz doesn’t control AC hiring, then why did the union tell us this is such a good deal for people that want to go to AC? Good job ALPA selling us something that’s not enforceable.

Two, the classic blaming the victim eh? You don’t like how you’re being abused? Why don’t you leave, let’s not blame the bully but blame the victim. Also side note, I will be leaving, just like the other hundreds of Jazz pilots with ATPL. Doesn’t make Jazz right, also doesn’t make what ALPA did right.

Please don’t act like Jazz has no fault here. If they know they can’t control AC hiring, why did they sell me the 60% flow during interview AND put it in the contract? Last I checked my contract is with Jazz. And you think Jazz respects the contract any better than AC? If there’s bs everywhere you go, why not go to the one that pays more? You can stay and keep praising the union while the rest of us move on

I’m still shocked everyone hired post 2015 hasn’t left

[truedude]

First, Jazz doesn't control AC hiring. Two, you can leave anytime. Three, there were more than one way they could have chosen to take the grievance, and one of those options expired. It was also the least likely one to succeed.

If you are unhappy about how AC is respecting the contract, why would you want to go there... Because all you are getting is a preview of what the rest of your career will look like at AC.

If Jazz doesn’t control AC hiring, then why did the union tell us this is such a good deal for people that want to go to AC? Good job ALPA selling us something that’s not enforceable.

Two, the classic blaming the victim eh? You don’t like how you’re being abused? Why don’t you leave, let’s not blame the bully but blame the victim. Also side note, I will be leaving, just like the other hundreds of Jazz pilots with ATPL. Doesn’t make Jazz right, also doesn’t make what ALPA did right.

Please don’t act like Jazz has no fault here. If they know they can’t control AC hiring, why did they sell me the 60% flow during interview AND put it in the contract? Last I checked my contract is with Jazz. And you think Jazz respects the contract any better than AC? If there’s bs everywhere you go, why not go to the one that pays more? You can stay and keep praising the union while the rest of us move on

ALPA made them remove that 60% from all job ads. And AC did sign an agreement. They failed to honor it. So we grieve Jazz, who will have to pay up. They can then in turn sue AC to recover costs.

[rudder]

He is supporting us. He is saying don't give in, and that they are just trying to scare us. Hold fast, and don't cave.

I do not doubt the supportive tone.

But the bargaining dynamic at Jazz is very different than the one at mainline (or WJ). At those bargaining tables, agreement need only come from one counter party (the employer).

Welcome to CPA world.

[truedude]

He is supporting us. He is saying don't give in, and that they are just trying to scare us. Hold fast, and don't cave.

I do not doubt the supportive tone.

But the bargaining dynamic at Jazz is very different than the one at mainline (or WJ). At those bargaining tables, agreement need only come from one counter party (the employer).

Welcome to CPA world.

Yeah, I really don't know what is going to happen.... the amount of flying in open system wide is staggering. And it will only grow as people start giving notice for Westjet ground schools. I suspect we will lose another 40 before the end of July.

[rudder]

He is supporting us. He is saying don't give in, and that they are just trying to scare us. Hold fast, and don't cave.

I do not doubt the supportive tone.

But the bargaining dynamic at Jazz is very different than the one at mainline (or WJ). At those bargaining tables, agreement need only come from one counter party (the employer).

Welcome to CPA world.

Yeah, I really don't know what is going to happen.... the amount of flying in open system wide is staggering. And it will only grow as people start giving notice for Westjet ground schools. I suspect we will lose another 40 before the end of July.

Just imagine if 42/month were leaving for AC (as is supposed to be the case).

The numbers are devastating.

[Turboprops]

ALPA made them remove that 60% from all job ads. And AC did sign an agreement. They failed to honor it. So we grieve Jazz, who will have to pay up. They can then in turn sue AC to recover costs.

This is literally still on Jazz’s hiring page

“Jazz is a member of the Air Canada Express preferential interview process with Air Canada.”

Bahahaha the ALPA lawyers can’t even get this removed, so you can seriously stop thinking “ALPA and their lawyers” are so strong and they’ll storm in to make a difference when PAL takes our flying.

And that’s the thing, we grieve Jazz, but what’s going to come out of it? How do you measure people losing hundreds of AC seniority number, losing upgrades and/or can’t get the base they want because people that are supposed to leave are still here. We’re talking tens of thousands of dollar PER PERSON. There’s no way the lawyers will get us back that much, I’d be surprised if one gets 2k out of it.

So there you go, who pushed this contract and said it would be the best thing for the pilot group? ALPA.
But the second it doesn’t work for the company we’re screwed and what have the lawyers done? Nothing.

[truedude]

ALPA made them remove that 60% from all job ads. And AC did sign an agreement. They failed to honor it. So we grieve Jazz, who will have to pay up. They can then in turn sue AC to recover costs.

This is literally still on Jazz’s hiring page

“Jazz is a member of the Air Canada Express preferential interview process with Air Canada.”

Bahahaha the ALPA lawyers can’t even get this removed, so you can seriously stop thinking “ALPA and their lawyers” are so strong and they’ll storm in to make a difference when PAL takes our flying.

And that’s the thing, we grieve Jazz, but what’s going to come out of it? How do you measure people losing hundreds of AC seniority number, losing upgrades and/or can’t get the base they want because people that are supposed to leave are still here. We’re talking tens of thousands of dollar PER PERSON. There’s no way the lawyers will get us back that much, I’d be surprised if one gets 2k out of it.

So there you go, who pushed this contract and said it would be the best thing for the pilot group? ALPA.
But the second it doesn’t work for the company we’re screwed and what have the lawyers done? Nothing.

It used to say 60%. It doesn't. And you do get preferential interview process. Just no longer do you get preferential hiring.

This is how things are done. You seem to get your understanding of how these things work from TV. The real world is slow. But the company and AC is feeling the pain of their in action.

So vote with your feet if you are unhappy.

[Fanblade]

ALPA made them remove that 60% from all job ads. And AC did sign an agreement. They failed to honor it. So we grieve Jazz, who will have to pay up. They can then in turn sue AC to recover costs.

This is literally still on Jazz’s hiring page

“Jazz is a member of the Air Canada Express preferential interview process with Air Canada.”

Bahahaha the ALPA lawyers can’t even get this removed, so you can seriously stop thinking “ALPA and their lawyers” are so strong and they’ll storm in to make a difference when PAL takes our flying.

And that’s the thing, we grieve Jazz, but what’s going to come out of it? How do you measure people losing hundreds of AC seniority number, losing upgrades and/or can’t get the base they want because people that are supposed to leave are still here. We’re talking tens of thousands of dollar PER PERSON. There’s no way the lawyers will get us back that much, I’d be surprised if one gets 2k out of it.

So there you go, who pushed this contract and said it would be the best thing for the pilot group? ALPA.
But the second it doesn’t work for the company we’re screwed and what have the lawyers done? Nothing.

It used to say 60%. It doesn't. And you do get preferential interview process. Just no longer do you get preferential hiring.

This is how things are done. You seem to get your understanding of how these things work from TV. The real world is slow. But the company and AC is feeling the pain of their in action.

So vote with your feet if you are unhappy.

Turboprops,

I see your frustration with how labour law works in Canada.

Employee does something in contradiction to the contract? Consequences are immediate.

Company does something in contradiction to the contract? Consequences are a year on more in the future.

It doesn’t matter what company or what union.

The AC head shed has no respect whatsoever for the pilot groups, or their contracts, at mainline or Jazz.

[Fanblade]

He is supporting us. He is saying don't give in, and that they are just trying to scare us. Hold fast, and don't cave.

I do not doubt the supportive tone.

But the bargaining dynamic at Jazz is very different than the one at mainline (or WJ). At those bargaining tables, agreement need only come from one counter party (the employer).

Welcome to CPA world.

I totally agree. Getting two sides to agree is tough enough. Getting three or four. Exponentially tougher. Add in the fact your contract isn’t open. Tougher yet. Add in the current AC CEO? It becomes a war.

But I do not believe for a second AC is going to let Jazz go over a cliff. Hold Jazz over the cliff? Yes. Show Jazz the bottom of the cliff? Yes. Heave Jazz over? No.

Yes Jazz will be smaller as AC starts upgauging. But AC still needs Jazz. It still needs a regional. PAL will eventually run into the same attraction and retention issues. It makes no sense to destroy something and then have to rebuild it elsewhere when at the end of the day they will pay anyway.

The real issue here is AC only wants to pay where THEY see the need. In Jazz’s case that is DEC’s. They don’t want to pay new hires or senior people who will probably never leave. Your union is saying no. You are going to pay everyone. Stalemate

The same theme exists on our side. AC would like to pay new hires more to attract the same quickly upgradable people that Jazz seeks. They do not want to pay more to the entire group. The union is saying. No. You are going to pay everyone. We will be in stalemate before the month is out.

Yes our situation is easier. We get to talk with the person holding the purse strings. Our contract will be open soon. Your contract is not open. You don’t get to talk directly to the gatekeeper of the dollar. Your battle is harder. But you will prevail if you hold fast.

Air Canada has a very long history of threatening to farm out flying when negotiations get tough. You have been around as long as I have. The pattern is very clear. Burning platform. Your career is about to be over……..

They are hoping you flinch.

[Fanblade]

This is only the second time the Jazz pilots have had to deal with AC management threatening to farm out work.

I figured I would give you some of our history. Off the top of my head.

- RJ’s to regionals. Contract 1998.

- Roots Air. Skyservice. Farm out Premium transcon. Contract negotiations 2000.

- Operating CRA above scope threshold. Contract 2000.

- Small jets arbitration. 60-90 seats jets possibly to Jazz. 2003-06. Bankruptcy negotiations.

- Rouge. Contract/FOS 2012. Threatened AC pilots with out sourcing Rouge if we didn’t agree to terms.

Every single contract in the last 25 years AC has threatened to farm out mainline work if the negotiations got tough. It is their go to burning platform. I expect we too may see it again this time.

[fixnfly]

He is supporting us. He is saying don't give in, and that they are just trying to scare us. Hold fast, and don't cave.

I do not doubt the supportive tone.

But the bargaining dynamic at Jazz is very different than the one at mainline (or WJ). At those bargaining tables, agreement need only come from one counter party (the employer).

Welcome to CPA world.

But I do not believe for a second AC is going to let Jazz go over a cliff. Hold Jazz over the cliff? Yes. Show Jazz the bottom of the cliff? Yes. Heave Jazz over? No.

Well at this point, I would say Jazz is falling head first down the side of the cliff. With the amount of flying in open time and recent resignations, I don't see how the next couple months aren't going to be a disaster. Maybe AC has a plan to help cover some of the flying because there is no way Jazz can cover it all.

[Malfunction]

Would be nice if the union updated us on..... everything

[link821]

Would be nice if the union updated us on..... everything

Or anything for that matter

[Turboprops]

And you do get preferential interview process. Just no longer do you get preferential hiring.

Preferential interview? You mean they prefer that you’re not from Jazz right?

[truedude]

I do not doubt the supportive tone.

But the bargaining dynamic at Jazz is very different than the one at mainline (or WJ). At those bargaining tables, agreement need only come from one counter party (the employer).

Welcome to CPA world.

But I do not believe for a second AC is going to let Jazz go over a cliff. Hold Jazz over the cliff? Yes. Show Jazz the bottom of the cliff? Yes. Heave Jazz over? No.

Well at this point, I would say Jazz is falling head first down the side of the cliff. With the amount of flying in open time and recent resignations, I don't see how the next couple months aren't going to be a disaster. Maybe AC has a plan to help cover some of the flying because there is no way Jazz can cover it all.

AC can't even cover their own flying.

[truedude]

Would be nice if the union updated us on..... everything

Or anything for that matter

If they haven't sent an email, it is because there is nothing to update you on.

[Little Star]

Turboprops,

I see your frustration with how labour law works in Canada.

Employee does something in contradiction to the contract? Consequences are immediate.

Company does something in contradiction to the contract? Consequences are a year on more in the future.

It doesn’t matter what company or what union.

The AC head shed has no respect whatsoever for the pilot groups, or their contracts, at mainline or Jazz.

Fanblade, AC pilots can do Jazz pilots a big favour if you include the hiring clause into your new CBA. The language could be like “60% of the pilots that AC hires must come from an Express carrier on a per course basis.”

[hsilgnepilot]

Turboprops,

I see your frustration with how labour law works in Canada.

Employee does something in contradiction to the contract? Consequences are immediate.

Company does something in contradiction to the contract? Consequences are a year on more in the future.

It doesn’t matter what company or what union.

The AC head shed has no respect whatsoever for the pilot groups, or their contracts, at mainline or Jazz.

Fanblade, AC pilots can do Jazz pilots a big favour if you include the hiring clause into your new CBA. The language could be like “60% of the pilots that AC hires must come from an Express carrier on a per course basis.”

Why on earth would AC pilots negotiate to have that included in their CBA? Especially since it would likely require concessions on their part.

[truedude]

Turboprops,

I see your frustration with how labour law works in Canada.

Employee does something in contradiction to the contract? Consequences are immediate.

Company does something in contradiction to the contract? Consequences are a year on more in the future.

It doesn’t matter what company or what union.

The AC head shed has no respect whatsoever for the pilot groups, or their contracts, at mainline or Jazz.

Fanblade, AC pilots can do Jazz pilots a big favour if you include the hiring clause into your new CBA. The language could be like “60% of the pilots that AC hires must come from an Express carrier on a per course basis.”

Mainline pilots aren't going to waste negots captail on us. And they would actually be doing regional pilots a huge diservice, as they could keep pay supressed at the regional level if they did that.

They also voted to open up Tier 2 carriers outside of Jazz, which also helped create this mess.

[CaptDukeNukem]

If you’re still at jazz anywhere near the east part of Canada, bid the E1, left or right seat. Get PPC, forget the line check, and apply porter. Jazz is Porter’s farm team. Free type ratings for accelerated course at porter.

[bear98]

If you’re still at jazz anywhere near the east part of Canada, bid the E1, left or right seat. Get PPC, forget the line check, and apply porter. Jazz is Porter’s farm team. Free type ratings for accelerated course at porter.

You must be on porters hiring team for the e2 by now lol

[RoAF-Mig21]

If you’re still at jazz anywhere near the east part of Canada, bid the E1, left or right seat. Get PPC, forget the line check, and apply porter. Jazz is Porter’s farm team. Free type ratings for accelerated course at porter.

You must be on porters hiring team for the e2 by now lol

Yeah. I'm sorry to say this, but it's not as attractive as one may think. Porter would hire me tomorrow if they had their way, but their offers are not as attractive for FOs. Maybe for captains...

If we're going to be realistic, let's be realistic. Their offer is sub-par to Jazz as of now... (at least for someone like me with a few years experience)

Edit: I should mention that the moment they offer an E2 YOW base and better commuting policies, I'd be very interested.