Negotiations

[canadian_aviator_4]

A unions job should be to improve conditions at the company, not help people leave the company. I’d gladly vote for 0 flow if it meant a generous increase. People should want to come to jazz cause it’s a great place to work, not just as a stepping stone to ac and the union should be fighting to make that happen

Agreed. I remember how happy I was when I got the job at Jazz back in the day. It was a big big deal. Now I talk to 700 hrs guys that think "Oh, I'll do this too , if I have to"... No different than what I said when I worked the ramp... "I guess it must be done to move on"... It annoys me to see the new generation put down Jazz and the flying we do here. I had one guy go on a rant at how "lame" it was that Jazz pilots flew the Classic Dash.

Anyway... Times have changed, I'm getting old and bitter.

Jazz is the new 703: Get in, get your hours, leave. Not a career place for any new hires like it was many years ago.

[rudder]

Jazz is the new 703: Get in, get your hours, leave. Not a career place for any new hires like it was many years ago.

Ironically, that was the exact management objective of Contract 2015 which forms the basis of the current CBA (intended to last until 2035).

Well, it has come to pass except time spent at Jazz by many ATPL qualified new-hires is measured by months not years as many superior financial and career progression opportunities exist outside of the Jazz/AC connection.

Recruitment. Resume. Retention. These are the challenges for a Part 705 operator with a CBA that offers the lowest year 1-5 pay. And now the year 6-20 demographic are looking elsewhere.These are the core pilot components of the operation, many with training and checking responsibilities.

Why seemingly nothing is being done to mitigate this is a mystery.

[North Shore]

Why seemingly nothing is being done to mitigate this is a mystery.

Maybe head office just doesn't have any ideas other than to hold on, and let 'er buck?

[rudder]

Why seemingly nothing is being done to mitigate this is a mystery.

Maybe head office just doesn't have any ideas other than to hold on, and let 'er buck?

That is not sustainable. CHR has obligations under the (current) CPA.

Perhaps the terms of that CPA are going to change.

[JoeyBarton]

Why seemingly nothing is being done to mitigate this is a mystery.

Maybe head office just doesn't have any ideas other than to hold on, and let 'er buck?

That is not sustainable. CHR has obligations under the (current) CPA.

Perhaps the terms of that CPA are going to change.

Somethig is brewing. PAL will fly some AC routes out east. I wouldn't be surpised if another operator helps out out west, but in that case, why fold ggn and sky into Jazz. This is real mystery indeed but for the moment, there is damage done to the AC brand. The remedy seems pretty simple though, so what is going on.

[truedude]

Maybe head office just doesn't have any ideas other than to hold on, and let 'er buck?

That is not sustainable. CHR has obligations under the (current) CPA.

Perhaps the terms of that CPA are going to change.

Somethig is brewing. PAL will fly some AC routes out east. I wouldn't be surpised if another operator helps out out west, but in that case, why fold ggn and sky into Jazz. This is real mystery indeed but for the moment, there is damage done to the AC brand. The remedy seems pretty simple though, so what is going on.

They don't want to pay more. That all this boils down to. They simply don't want to pay pilots more money.

[hsilgnepilot]

Maybe head office just doesn't have any ideas other than to hold on, and let 'er buck?

That is not sustainable. CHR has obligations under the (current) CPA.

Perhaps the terms of that CPA are going to change.

Somethig is brewing. PAL will fly some AC routes out east. I wouldn't be surpised if another operator helps out out west, but in that case, why fold ggn and sky into Jazz. This is real mystery indeed but for the moment, there is damage done to the AC brand. The remedy seems pretty simple though, so what is going on.

Central Mountain Air is apparently acquiring X number of Q400s. Considering PASCO is in bed with WestJet I would say CMA is your front . for a west coast CPA.

[truedude]

That is not sustainable. CHR has obligations under the (current) CPA.

Perhaps the terms of that CPA are going to change.

Somethig is brewing. PAL will fly some AC routes out east. I wouldn't be surpised if another operator helps out out west, but in that case, why fold ggn and sky into Jazz. This is real mystery indeed but for the moment, there is damage done to the AC brand. The remedy seems pretty simple though, so what is going on.

Central Mountain Air is apparently acquiring X number of Q400s. Considering PASCO is in bed with WestJet I would say CMA is your front . for a west coast CPA.

And CMA is currently paying a butt load of money to retired Jazz pilots to occasionally fly their 300's for charter work... so again, where do they think the pilots will come from.

This is the fundamental problem for all of these carriers, as it is for Jazz. Is CMA or PAL suddenly going to pay more money? This is laughable.

[hsilgnepilot]

Somethig is brewing. PAL will fly some AC routes out east. I wouldn't be surpised if another operator helps out out west, but in that case, why fold ggn and sky into Jazz. This is real mystery indeed but for the moment, there is damage done to the AC brand. The remedy seems pretty simple though, so what is going on.

Central Mountain Air is apparently acquiring X number of Q400s. Considering PASCO is in bed with WestJet I would say CMA is your front . for a west coast CPA.

And CMA is currently paying a butt load of money to retired Jazz pilots to occasionally fly their 300's for charter work... so again, where do they think the pilots will come from.

This is the fundamental problem for all of these carriers, as it is for Jazz. Is CMA or PAL suddenly going to pay more money? This is laughable.

Well PAL is the only airline in Canada which offers people a base in YYT, and other than Porter the only company to offer YHZ, which is one of the largest commuting cities in Canada. I can promise you that there are more than a couple Atlantic Canada commuting Jazz pilots contemplating a switch over to PAL.

So no, I wouldn’t say it’s laughable at all. I’m not as familiar with CMA but being able to say you’re an “Air Canada Express” carrier, will attract people on its own, and surely they have better pay than Jazz. GGN was quite possibly the worst 705 company to ever exist in this country in terms of WAWCON and safety culture, they still managed to put butts in the seats, had they not been an “Air Canada Express”, I’m sure the seats would’ve been empty.

It’s happened in the past, and to think AC won’t sign CPAs with other airlines again is just naive.

[truedude]

Central Mountain Air is apparently acquiring X number of Q400s. Considering PASCO is in bed with WestJet I would say CMA is your front . for a west coast CPA.

And CMA is currently paying a butt load of money to retired Jazz pilots to occasionally fly their 300's for charter work... so again, where do they think the pilots will come from.

This is the fundamental problem for all of these carriers, as it is for Jazz. Is CMA or PAL suddenly going to pay more money? This is laughable.

Well PAL is the only airline in Canada which offers people a base in YYT, and other than Porter the only company to offer YHZ, which is one of the largest commuting cities in Canada. I can promise you that there are more than a couple Atlantic Canada commuting Jazz pilots contemplating a switch over to PAL.

So no, I wouldn’t say it’s laughable at all. I’m not as familiar with CMA but being able to say you’re an “Air Canada Express” carrier, will attract people on its own, and surely they have better pay than Jazz. GGN was quite possibly the worst 705 company to ever exist in this country in terms of WAWCON and safety culture, they still managed to put butts in the seats, had they not been an “Air Canada Express”, I’m sure the seats would’ve been empty.

It’s happened in the past, and to think AC won’t sign CPAs with other airlines again is just naive.

It happened in the past becauae there were pilots in the past. A lot of them. That isn't the case anymore. And PAL won't be able to scale for the same reason. There aren't that many people that want to live in Halifax. And I see PAL is looking for DEC, perhaps they are feeling some pressure. GGN was imploding in its final days, partly due to staffing issues.

So no, it is completely laughable. Either they adapt, or they die. And trying to start up a bunch of new CPA carriers will all fail to. The only solution is to pay more, a lot more.

[QKZXKV]

Central Mountain Air is apparently acquiring X number of Q400s. Considering PASCO is in bed with WestJet I would say CMA is your front . for a west coast CPA.

And CMA is currently paying a butt load of money to retired Jazz pilots to occasionally fly their 300's for charter work... so again, where do they think the pilots will come from.

This is the fundamental problem for all of these carriers, as it is for Jazz. Is CMA or PAL suddenly going to pay more money? This is laughable.

Well PAL is the only airline in Canada which offers people a base in YYT, and other than Porter the only company to offer YHZ, which is one of the largest commuting cities in Canada. I can promise you that there are more than a couple Atlantic Canada commuting Jazz pilots contemplating a switch over to PAL.

So no, I wouldn’t say it’s laughable at all. I’m not as familiar with CMA but being able to say you’re an “Air Canada Express” carrier, will attract people on its own, and surely they have better pay than Jazz. GGN was quite possibly the worst 705 company to ever exist in this country in terms of WAWCON and safety culture, they still managed to put butts in the seats, had they not been an “Air Canada Express”, I’m sure the seats would’ve been empty.

It’s happened in the past, and to think AC won’t sign CPAs with other airlines again is just naive.

So maritime commuters resign from Jazz and go to PAL to fly AC Express routes... how the heck does that solve anything? It's the same lack of pilots and same group of pilots moving from one pocket to the other.

Does not solve the problem at all!

[truedude]

And CMA is currently paying a butt load of money to retired Jazz pilots to occasionally fly their 300's for charter work... so again, where do they think the pilots will come from.

This is the fundamental problem for all of these carriers, as it is for Jazz. Is CMA or PAL suddenly going to pay more money? This is laughable.

Well PAL is the only airline in Canada which offers people a base in YYT, and other than Porter the only company to offer YHZ, which is one of the largest commuting cities in Canada. I can promise you that there are more than a couple Atlantic Canada commuting Jazz pilots contemplating a switch over to PAL.

So no, I wouldn’t say it’s laughable at all. I’m not as familiar with CMA but being able to say you’re an “Air Canada Express” carrier, will attract people on its own, and surely they have better pay than Jazz. GGN was quite possibly the worst 705 company to ever exist in this country in terms of WAWCON and safety culture, they still managed to put butts in the seats, had they not been an “Air Canada Express”, I’m sure the seats would’ve been empty.

It’s happened in the past, and to think AC won’t sign CPAs with other airlines again is just naive.

So maritime commuters resign from Jazz and go to PAL to fly AC Express routes... how the heck does that solve anything? It's the same lack of pilots and same group of pilots moving from one pocket to the other.

Does not solve the problem at all!

Exactly. Completely stupid and a failure of leadership.

[hsilgnepilot]

Well PAL is the only airline in Canada which offers people a base in YYT, and other than Porter the only company to offer YHZ, which is one of the largest commuting cities in Canada. I can promise you that there are more than a couple Atlantic Canada commuting Jazz pilots contemplating a switch over to PAL.

So no, I wouldn’t say it’s laughable at all. I’m not as familiar with CMA but being able to say you’re an “Air Canada Express” carrier, will attract people on its own, and surely they have better pay than Jazz. GGN was quite possibly the worst 705 company to ever exist in this country in terms of WAWCON and safety culture, they still managed to put butts in the seats, had they not been an “Air Canada Express”, I’m sure the seats would’ve been empty.

It’s happened in the past, and to think AC won’t sign CPAs with other airlines again is just naive.

So maritime commuters resign from Jazz and go to PAL to fly AC Express routes... how the heck does that solve anything? It's the same lack of pilots and same group of pilots moving from one pocket to the other.

Does not solve the problem at all!

Exactly. Completely stupid and a failure of leadership.

I agree that it doesn’t solve issues, and agree that there aren’t enough pilots 100%, but I don’t think AC sees it that way. All I am saying is don’t under estimate AC’s ability to give away Jazz flying, whether it makes sense or not.

[truedude]

So maritime commuters resign from Jazz and go to PAL to fly AC Express routes... how the heck does that solve anything? It's the same lack of pilots and same group of pilots moving from one pocket to the other.

Does not solve the problem at all!

Exactly. Completely stupid and a failure of leadership.

I agree that it doesn’t solve issues, and agree that there aren’t enough pilots 100%, but I don’t think AC sees it that way. All I am saying is don’t under estimate AC’s ability to give away Jazz flying, whether it makes sense or not.

They can deny reality as long as they want. And I am sure they will get increasingly desperate... but 10-20% of their regional flying is being canceled everyday. Their winter YYC plans are up in smoke because they need to cover regional routes.

So either they get with the program, or keep watching their operation go-to crap, while their competition gets larger and stronger. They need to wake the fu$& up!

[hsilgnepilot]

Exactly. Completely stupid and a failure of leadership.

I agree that it doesn’t solve issues, and agree that there aren’t enough pilots 100%, but I don’t think AC sees it that way. All I am saying is don’t under estimate AC’s ability to give away Jazz flying, whether it makes sense or not.

They can deny reality as long as they want. And I am sure they will get increasingly desperate... but 10-20% of their regional flying is being canceled everyday. Their winter YYC plans are up in smoke because they need to cover regional routes.

So either they get with the program, or keep watching their operation go-to crap, while their competition gets larger and stronger. They need to wake the fu$& up!

Couldn’t agree more

[mmm...bacon]

Tangental to this discussion, but what does PAL pay? I'm sure that there are some East coasters who'll take the job just to stay out there, but if the pay isn't competitive, then PAL will suffer the same retention problems that Jazz is having, no?

[truedude]

Tangental to this discussion, but what does PAL pay? I'm sure that there are some East coasters who'll take the job just to stay out there, but if the pay isn't competitive, then PAL will suffer the same retention problems that Jazz is having, no?

Under the Jazz CPA, pay is a flow through cost, hence the big issue. So if PAL is going to pay more, then it means they are getting the money from AC to pay more. But aside from starting a little higher, no, there is nothing in their contract that is better than Jazz. And like Jazz, F/Os aren't the problem. Captains are. And PAL is currently advertising for DEC, which means they are short staffed already.

[hsilgnepilot]

Tangental to this discussion, but what does PAL pay? I'm sure that there are some East coasters who'll take the job just to stay out there, but if the pay isn't competitive, then PAL will suffer the same retention problems that Jazz is having, no?

Pay for PAL is already noted in the PAL section.

[DouglasFir]

I think mainline is viewing this “ shortage” as a blip that they can wait out.

Inevitably, the industry goes up and down and if they can wait out this time period why not wait?

This isn’t sustainable … whatsoever .. loss of market share is never good.

it could also be possible that they’re trying to manipulate us through scare tactics : “ see evil pilots we can hire cheaper labor !!! Be afraid lol .”

I’m looking for logic and I’m having trouble finding some …

[Big Pistons Forever]

Never ascribe malice to a situation that can be explained by the exercise of mere incompetence..

[Big Pistons Forever]

deleted

[Rowdy]

The problem arose a few years ago. Its not like this wasn't forecast. An aging workforce. An increase in capacity and routes and airframes. Globally. The whole WORLD needed flight crew.

Some small things were done to slow the inevitable in canada, but its here now and the old guard in management are flailing trying to save themselves. They moved retirement first to 65 and hoping for further in an attempt to keep experienced captains around. They reduced the requirements in the country for ATPL's, by allowing FO time to count 1:1 vs the previous 0.5:1. There was lots of labor division (sky, GGN etc) and attempts to run programs like the PML and PMA and all the college programs, but that wasn't enough. Covid may have slowed it a bit too and the companies were BEYOND foolish to offer such attractive ERP programs. That would just later magnify their problems. The wages have needed to come up. The solution was there in 2018 and 2019, but nope. The solutions now are akin to pissing on a forest fire and hoping to put it out. A little wind change is all it takes to be out of control...

You can't expect people to get into this career path when the cost of entry is high, the family life is rough and the initial pay and working conditions are atrocious and you're stuck living in major centres or atrocious commutes. Other than the dreamers and schemers, who is stupid enough to put 130-140k and 2-4 years of training/schooling in, to turn around and make under 50k for four years (average time from 250hr CPL to 2000hr ATPL) in the most EXPENSIVE cities in Canada. Only to then make 80-90k as a regional pilot working 18-19 days a month? Then to have your schedule, lifestyle and pay get slaughtered AGAIN to go to a mainline to maybe fly that fancy sounding wide body for less than a mcdonalds manager makes.

Now ATAC is pushing to suspend the FTDT changes? AC and CHR RELYING on pisspoor overtime to make a schedule work that is already a dumpster fire? Circumventing and ignoring contractual obligations with its workforce? Pushing said workforce around and bullying? Blaming everyone else under the sun for their ineptitude. Great way to attract and keep people...

The fear mongering and bullying tactics of the 90's and early oughts just don't work any more. It is only going to get worse as the country produces fewer and fewer CPL's every year and those with experience and ATPLs, like many other professions in canada, leave the country for greener pastures.

Its already too late for a bit more money to be added to wages. Maybe they know this. Maybe they don't. Maybe they dont even care.

The next 6 months are going to be interesting. Excuse me while I get my FAA ATPL...

[Nick678]

It’s been a month to determine “the next steps forward” from the Pal announcement and 7 months since the flow violation for a guy with a full release you would think he could show some results

[hank998899]

It’s been a month to determine “the next steps forward” from the Pal announcement and 7 months since the flow violation for a guy with a full release you would think he could show some results

They might as well stop paying us if all we can do is grieve… Heard a rumour that the grievance guy is busy picking up WDOs.

[JoeyBarton]

Funny how ALPA is seen as the messi at mainline. Hasn't produced anything really tangible since 2015 at Jazz..