lol there better be.. how much longer do we accept a MEC that isn’t producing result during the one of the greatest periods of pilot leverage this industry has ever seen.
Can't force the company to pay more. But obviously things aren't working so great for them either.
We will get 1 of 3 updates. Either, we have a deal. Still talking. Or talks have once again ended. Both 1 and 3 will produce a communication. 2 won't. So I figure we are still on 2 in some form.
34 days. Radio silence from the JAZ MEC.
The letters going out from AC with firm PIT dates for the fall is the first sign that there is at least some form of ‘plan’ going forward, at least as it applies to flow.
As for the rest….. who knows.
Jazz and ALPA seem to have a passive/aggressive largely dysfunctional relationship.
Doing nothing is a strategy. Just not a very effective one.
Can't force the company to pay more. But obviously things aren't working so great for them either.
We will get 1 of 3 updates. Either, we have a deal. Still talking. Or talks have once again ended. Both 1 and 3 will produce a communication. 2 won't. So I figure we are still on 2 in some form.
34 days. Radio silence from the JAZ MEC.
The letters going out from AC with firm PIT dates for the fall is the first sign that there is at least some form of ‘plan’ going forward, at least as it applies to flow.
As for the rest….. who knows.
Jazz and ALPA seem to have a passive/aggressive largely dysfunctional relationship.
Doing nothing is a strategy. Just not a very effective one.
34 days with a full flight release….
Is a passive play the one we pay for?
Someone should roughly total up what the pilot group is paying in union fees vs the amount of gains the group has gotten. Someone’s summer is looking awesome.
Seriously, company says we are not talking anymore. What is the MEC suppose to do? The pilot group supported the MEC in passing the dumbest contract in aviation history, so your hands are tied.
It sucks, but legally their is nothing a pilot group a can do other than follow the contract. It’s not the MEC’s fault the company doesn’t want to pay more money or start negotiations.
Only thing that can be done is for each and everyone of you to voice displeasure and walk away to another operator. I worked for Jazz, and I can say that Jazz is NOT the be all end all.
Hell, going across the street to Porter, a senior Jazz captain will put about 4K a month more into their bank account. Yes the difference in take home is that significant.
flyinhigh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:52 am
Seriously, company says we are not talking anymore. What is the MEC suppose to do? The pilot group supported the MEC in passing the dumbest contract in aviation history, so your hands are tied.
It sucks, but legally their is nothing a pilot group a can do other than follow the contract. It’s not the MEC’s fault the company doesn’t want to pay more money or start negotiations.
Only thing that can be done is for each and everyone of you to voice displeasure and walk away to another operator. I worked for Jazz, and I can say that Jazz is NOT the be all end all.
Hell, going across the street to Porter, a senior Jazz captain will put about 4K a month more into their bank account. Yes the difference in take home is that significant.
Quick question or two, how much of that 4000 has to be put away to equal the pension, I know I looked at the Porter match and it is inferior to Jazz by quite a bit.
The other is, what is your LTD like there?
As a pilot who has needed it twice, well, STD(returned at 13 months) once and then LTD, I can tell you it’s worth every penny they deduct from my cheque. This is intangible until you need it, then it becomes very tangible and important. It is an insurance and insurance is something you are happy to have if needed but hate paying for.
I figured I probably only use about 2000 per year of my benefits but pay around 10000 but when I needed it, me and my family who didn’t have to worry about how we were going to pay our bills sure as heck appreciated it.
I hope no one ever needs it but make no mistake, it is a very valuable deduction, of course the cost could be lower if we weren’t using it but everyone on LTD will probably never complain about the cost ever again.
flyinhigh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:52 am
It’s not the MEC’s fault the company doesn’t want to pay more money or start negotiations.
Ya, but who negotiated this wage and pushed it like it was the best thing ever few years ago? Was it not this MEC? Surely people are figuring it out and quitting, but doesn’t mean they’re not pissed off at the MEC at the same time
Perhaps a cruel but timely indication of how the employer is so out of touch…
Memo 2023-200 titled Pilot Wellness Committee (not going to post the memo on this forum) has a very appropriate spelling error, as if to underscore how they have no clue what is going on the “shop floor”.
“Morale” is mis-spelled as “moral”. What a disgrace. Amateur hour!
flyinhigh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:52 am
Seriously, company says we are not talking anymore. What is the MEC suppose to do? The pilot group supported the MEC in passing the dumbest contract in aviation history, so your hands are tied.
It sucks, but legally their is nothing a pilot group a can do other than follow the contract. It’s not the MEC’s fault the company doesn’t want to pay more money or start negotiations.
Only thing that can be done is for each and everyone of you to voice displeasure and walk away to another operator. I worked for Jazz, and I can say that Jazz is NOT the be all end all.
Hell, going across the street to Porter, a senior Jazz captain will put about 4K a month more into their bank account. Yes the difference in take home is that significant.
Quick question or two, how much of that 4000 has to be put away to equal the pension, I know I looked at the Porter match and it is inferior to Jazz by quite a bit.
The other is, what is your LTD like there?
As a pilot who has needed it twice, well, STD(returned at 13 months) once and then LTD, I can tell you it’s worth every penny they deduct from my cheque. This is intangible until you need it, then it becomes very tangible and important. It is an insurance and insurance is something you are happy to have if needed but hate paying for.
I figured I probably only use about 2000 per year of my benefits but pay around 10000 but when I needed it, me and my family who didn’t have to worry about how we were going to pay our bills sure as heck appreciated it.
I hope no one ever needs it but make no mistake, it is a very valuable deduction, of course the cost could be lower if we weren’t using it but everyone on LTD will probably never complain about the cost ever again.
If you’re a capable human being, you can put that $8000 dollars away per year that you’re not spending in health benefits and invest in a decent fund. There is still a company match, albeit it does take a few years to get top scale. The deductions are insane at jazz, and everyone knows it. Sure it’s good to have, but hiring a decent financial advisor and planning for the future isn’t also the craziest idea out there. $8000 saved per year in non deductions will probably equate to a healthy retirement, over time, given the current top rrsp match.
I agree porter has some ladder rungs to climb versus jazz pension, especially ones that have been there for a while. But it’s just about being smart with your money.
flyinhigh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 7:52 am
Seriously, company says we are not talking anymore. What is the MEC suppose to do? The pilot group supported the MEC in passing the dumbest contract in aviation history, so your hands are tied.
It sucks, but legally their is nothing a pilot group a can do other than follow the contract. It’s not the MEC’s fault the company doesn’t want to pay more money or start negotiations.
Only thing that can be done is for each and everyone of you to voice displeasure and walk away to another operator. I worked for Jazz, and I can say that Jazz is NOT the be all end all.
Hell, going across the street to Porter, a senior Jazz captain will put about 4K a month more into their bank account. Yes the difference in take home is that significant.
Quick question or two, how much of that 4000 has to be put away to equal the pension, I know I looked at the Porter match and it is inferior to Jazz by quite a bit.
The other is, what is your LTD like there?
As a pilot who has needed it twice, well, STD(returned at 13 months) once and then LTD, I can tell you it’s worth every penny they deduct from my cheque. This is intangible until you need it, then it becomes very tangible and important. It is an insurance and insurance is something you are happy to have if needed but hate paying for.
I figured I probably only use about 2000 per year of my benefits but pay around 10000 but when I needed it, me and my family who didn’t have to worry about how we were going to pay our bills sure as heck appreciated it.
I hope no one ever needs it but make no mistake, it is a very valuable deduction, of course the cost could be lower if we weren’t using it but everyone on LTD will probably never complain about the cost ever again.
If you’re a capable human being, you can put that $8000 dollars away per year that you’re not spending in health benefits and invest in a decent fund. There is still a company match, albeit it does take a few years to get top scale. The deductions are insane at jazz, and everyone knows it. Sure it’s good to have, but hiring a decent financial advisor and planning for the future isn’t also the craziest idea out there. $8000 saved per year in non deductions will probably equate to a healthy retirement, over time, given the current top rrsp match.
I agree porter has some ladder rungs to climb versus jazz pension, especially ones that have been there for a while. But it’s just about being smart with your money.
I’m sure you missed the part that the 8000 is mostly due to the STD and LTD premiums, I don’t think anyone, decent or not could put away enough money to cover wages if they end up on disability.
It could happen at any time, my first event was at 40 and again 5 years later, completely unpredictable and would’ve bankrupt my family if not for these benefits.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:45 am
Quick question or two, how much of that 4000 has to be put away to equal the pension, I know I looked at the Porter match and it is inferior to Jazz by quite a bit.
The other is, what is your LTD like there?
As a pilot who has needed it twice, well, STD(returned at 13 months) once and then LTD, I can tell you it’s worth every penny they deduct from my cheque. This is intangible until you need it, then it becomes very tangible and important. It is an insurance and insurance is something you are happy to have if needed but hate paying for.
I figured I probably only use about 2000 per year of my benefits but pay around 10000 but when I needed it, me and my family who didn’t have to worry about how we were going to pay our bills sure as heck appreciated it.
I hope no one ever needs it but make no mistake, it is a very valuable deduction, of course the cost could be lower if we weren’t using it but everyone on LTD will probably never complain about the cost ever again.
If you’re a capable human being, you can put that $8000 dollars away per year that you’re not spending in health benefits and invest in a decent fund. There is still a company match, albeit it does take a few years to get top scale. The deductions are insane at jazz, and everyone knows it. Sure it’s good to have, but hiring a decent financial advisor and planning for the future isn’t also the craziest idea out there. $8000 saved per year in non deductions will probably equate to a healthy retirement, over time, given the current top rrsp match.
I agree porter has some ladder rungs to climb versus jazz pension, especially ones that have been there for a while. But it’s just about being smart with your money.
I’m sure you missed the part that the 8000 is mostly due to the STD and LTD premiums, I don’t think anyone, decent or not could put away enough money to cover wages if they end up on disability.
It could happen at any time, my first event was at 40 and again 5 years later, completely unpredictable and would’ve bankrupt my family if not for these benefits.
Good point. I did somehow miss that. My apologies. The LTD and STD at jazz is good, albeit expensive. Hopefully the company covers a greater portion soon.
lol there better be.. how much longer do we accept a MEC that isn’t producing result during the one of the greatest periods of pilot leverage this industry has ever seen.
Can't force the company to pay more. But obviously things aren't working so great for them either.
We will get 1 of 3 updates. Either, we have a deal. Still talking. Or talks have once again ended. Both 1 and 3 will produce a communication. 2 won't. So I figure we are still on 2 in some form.
34 days. Radio silence from the JAZ MEC.
The letters going out from AC with firm PIT dates for the fall is the first sign that there is at least some form of ‘plan’ going forward, at least as it applies to flow.
As for the rest….. who knows.
Jazz and ALPA seem to have a passive/aggressive largely dysfunctional relationship.
Doing nothing is a strategy. Just not a very effective one.
Can't force the company to pay more. But obviously things aren't working so great for them either.
We will get 1 of 3 updates. Either, we have a deal. Still talking. Or talks have once again ended. Both 1 and 3 will produce a communication. 2 won't. So I figure we are still on 2 in some form.
34 days. Radio silence from the JAZ MEC.
The letters going out from AC with firm PIT dates for the fall is the first sign that there is at least some form of ‘plan’ going forward, at least as it applies to flow.
As for the rest….. who knows.
Jazz and ALPA seem to have a passive/aggressive largely dysfunctional relationship.
Doing nothing is a strategy. Just not a very effective one.
The letters going out from AC with firm PIT dates for the fall is the first sign that there is at least some form of ‘plan’ going forward, at least as it applies to flow.
As for the rest….. who knows.
Jazz and ALPA seem to have a passive/aggressive largely dysfunctional relationship.
Doing nothing is a strategy. Just not a very effective one.
We have a union here at Jazz still right?!?
Check your paystub. 2% going to doing nothing.
Yep for top scale CA it’s an extra $240 a month. After deductions it’s barely over $100/month. They might as well keep it.
Here is the sad part…. SOMEBODY…..SOMEWHERE…..knows SOMETHING about what is going on.
They just choose not to share that information. Those somebodies are the ones receiving nearly 2% off every Jazz pilot pay cheque (1% going to the JAZ MEC). Nearly 6 weeks without an update.
It is entirely possible that a deal has been reached that is under seal until other parties sign off. It is also entirely possible that a lack of will or experience means status quo continues.
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:16 pm
Here is the sad part…. SOMEBODY…..SOMEWHERE…..knows SOMETHING about what is going on.
They just choose not to share that information. Those somebodies are the ones receiving nearly 2% off every Jazz pilot pay cheque (1% going to the JAZ MEC). Nearly 6 weeks without an update.
It is entirely possible that a deal has been reached that is under seal until other parties sign off. It is also entirely possible that a lack of will or experience means status quo continues.
Hopefully the former not the latter.
Also, entirely possible that our union is on summer vacation and enjoying a reduced schedule attached to vacation weeks.
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:16 pm
Here is the sad part…. SOMEBODY…..SOMEWHERE…..knows SOMETHING about what is going on.
They just choose not to share that information. Those somebodies are the ones receiving nearly 2% off every Jazz pilot pay cheque (1% going to the JAZ MEC). Nearly 6 weeks without an update.
It is entirely possible that a deal has been reached that is under seal until other parties sign off. It is also entirely possible that a lack of will or experience means status quo continues.
Hopefully the former not the latter.
Also, entirely possible that our union is on summer vacation and enjoying a reduced schedule attached to vacation weeks.
I can’t remember if there was a vacation bid award list. Might not be such a bad idea to see if the union reps are enjoying summers off.
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:16 pm
Here is the sad part…. SOMEBODY…..SOMEWHERE…..knows SOMETHING about what is going on.
They just choose not to share that information. Those somebodies are the ones receiving nearly 2% off every Jazz pilot pay cheque (1% going to the JAZ MEC). Nearly 6 weeks without an update.
It is entirely possible that a deal has been reached that is under seal until other parties sign off. It is also entirely possible that a lack of will or experience means status quo continues.
Hopefully the former not the latter.
Also, entirely possible that our union is on summer vacation and enjoying a reduced schedule attached to vacation weeks.
I can’t remember if there was a vacation bid award list. Might not be such a bad idea to see if the union reps are enjoying summers off.
So what if they are, you bid for vacation in order of seniority and there is no special vacation bid for reps.
As for the on going “talks”, it would be nice to hear something but I’m sure there are other factors preventing that, like what rudder mentioned, awaiting another party to sign off or just simply stalled waiting for that same third party to even come to the table.
Meanwhile, we will keep losing the pilots that don’t want to risk waiting it out, who could blame them!
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:16 pm
Here is the sad part…. SOMEBODY…..SOMEWHERE…..knows SOMETHING about what is going on.
They just choose not to share that information. Those somebodies are the ones receiving nearly 2% off every Jazz pilot pay cheque (1% going to the JAZ MEC). Nearly 6 weeks without an update.
It is entirely possible that a deal has been reached that is under seal until other parties sign off. It is also entirely possible that a lack of will or experience means status quo continues.
Hopefully the former not the latter.
Air Canada loves their NDA’s. They have been aggressive in the past with people who breach. There is a reason nothing is being said. It will come out in the wash. I highly doubt it is a case of neglect.
Maybe rapped up in AC purchasing Jazz back from Chorus? Securities law? Who knows???
Pure speculation. But again I wouldn’t lean toward neglect.
Unfortunately you will probably only understand the silence today from hindsight in the future. It’s possible that the PAL CPA was more about Chorus arm bending, than about Jazz pilots.
Air Canada did a lot of arm bending to get Aeroplan back. Same tactic. Sell it back to us cheap. Or we will kill your business.
hank998899 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:43 am
New MEC email out…
I'm no longer at Jazz but I just heard.... I'm dumfounded...just wild. Something is up.
For Jazz guys who what to get to AC you should quit now and head to another company then apply direct.
Ejet drivers based in YYZ what makes you stay at Jazz then or any fleet drivers? For the E drivers ... who don't want AC .... you can make much more at POE.
hank998899 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:43 am
New MEC email out…
I'm no longer at Jazz but I just heard.... I'm dumfounded...just wild. Something is up.
For Jazz guys who what to get to AC you should quit now and head to another company then apply direct.
Ejet drivers based in YYZ what makes you stay at Jazz then or any fleet drivers? For the E drivers ... who don't want AC .... you can make much more at POE.
If you're under 40 you need to pivot.
The ship has been sinking and it's now worse.
I standby my thesis! We are just witnessing gross incompetence of the highest order. AC made some bad assumptions that simply aren't playing out, along with their utter contempt for pilots.
And again, I think it all comes back to the VP of Flight ops. His hatred for the regionals is well known, and he assumed a lot of things that simply weren't true. As soon as that offer failed in the fall, he should have rengaged and got something done. Instead he ranted like a raving lunatic to new hire classes, and I guess felt if he just denied reality long enough we would all apprently cave.
The amount of chaos and lack of leadership is astounding.
The last update on the status of negotiations was June 2. In that update the MEC advised that we had resumed high-level discussions with the Company.
Since that update we continued dialogue with the Company on resolving the issues of attraction, retention, training, and Air Canada network capacity. We did this exercise with the Company even though Air Canada had not yet committed to financing the solutions to these issues – a critical piece of closing this agreement as our wages are a defined cost under the CPA. On June 14 we reached an agreement with Jazz. This agreement was then taken to Air Canada for their consideration. If Air Canada accepted, we would complete final language, compile details into a Tentative Agreement, then convene the MEC to consider the TA and determine next steps.
By the end of June Air Canada had not yet responded to Jazz. It is unusual for a bargaining proposal to hang stagnant for so long. The MEC Executive called a meeting with the MEC to review the status of negotiations and seek direction. On July 4 the MEC met and directed the MEC Executive to establish a deadline of 1700 Eastern, Thursday, July 6. The deadline was subsequently extended to Friday, July 7, at Jazz’s request. If there was no response from Air Canada by this time, our agreement would be revoked.
On Friday at the deadline, we were advised that Air Canada did not accept our proposal. Instead, they sent a pay table that they drafted “for discussion”.
The MEC met to consider the pay table proposed by Air Canada, and found it unacceptable. It is the MEC’s assessment that Air Canada is attempting to fortify bargaining against Air Canada pilots by anchoring low raises at Jazz. Air Canada’s expectations for wages in the regional network are disconnected from the current market reality.
In the meantime, Air Canada is trying to manage attrition by offering AC course dates well into the fall with the hope those pilots won’t leave the network. Ironically, most of these pilots should have gone to Air Canada last year and are already out hundreds of seniority numbers.
Our proposals have been reasonable, reflective of industry evolution, reflective of member surveys (conducted twice over the past 10 months), and focused on rebuilding Jazz’s viability. Air Canada is unwilling to seriously consider the wages that Jazz needs to rebuild a viable airline, and they continue to undermine previously negotiated agreements. This includes continued violations of their 60% hiring commitment, and reneging on commercial agreements respecting Jazz’s exclusivity to 2026.
We have been in some form of dialogue/discussion/negotiation for just over a year. In that time Jazz has lost nearly 20 airplanes’ worth of crew to other airlines. Given everything that has transpired over that time, the MEC believes any reasonable person would conclude that Air Canada does not respect the work that you do for their network and passengers.
The MEC intends to respond to Air Canada’s wage proposal, but at the present time there are no formal meetings or negotiations planned. We will continue to update you on any developments.
Simply put - nothing will change at Jazz (except that it will shrink).
Perhaps somewhere out the other side of the mainline Pilot bargaining (which will most certainly stretch out well in to next year) there might be a more enlightened response. But for now - what you see is what you get. And the damage is being done.
AC appears to be planning a ‘workaround’ for the pilot staffing issues at Jazz. EIC will possibly become AC’s new best friend. This is no different than during the 1990’s where AC Regional pilots would bargain with local managers but the real decisions were being made at AC HQ.
Perhaps AC should not be faulted for taking a tough stance. Business is business. Cannot be seen to be doling out large pay increases at one bargaining table and not another. But that choice has repercussions. Express pilots make less than many Part 703/704 pilots. And there are lots of better Part 705 opportunities out there. Individual Jazz pilots and pilots considering Jazz should take what they now know and plan accordingly.
