A Happy Right Seater

[Loon-A-Tic]

Will this drive more changes.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/u ... 2b08&ei=72

[flyingjerry]

Sure helps when the right seat can get you over 250K

[digits_]

Time to get a decreasing pay scale for FO's

You start at 250k and after 3 years you're below 100k

[fish4life]

I bet a lot of those unfilled left seats are in less than desirable bases like New York. If you live in your base in a cheap city as an FO you’re going to be better off financially than moving to New York or sacrificing the QOL to start commuting.

[cheeky cough]

In my opinion , it takes years to know what one is doing in the airline business.

They are hiring many career First Officers who have probably never been a Captain on anything other than a training aircraft.

In Canada, there are many companies that provide valuable experience to scare the sh$t of yourself in the Captain seat. Not as many opportunities down there .

Just my two cents.

[ogopogo]

Doesn't one just slide over with one's YOS??

[Crewbunk]

Doesn't one just slide over with one's YOS??

At some airlines, yes.

But, for example, 20 YOS might get you close to the top of right seat 777, it would only get you barely half way in the left seat. There will always be a quality of lifestyle change going from F/O to CA. (Unless you were going F/O 777 to CA A220).

[fixnfly]

Is the same thing happening at AC at all? Are there a lot of guys/gals who want to stay FO/RP for lifestyle reasons for the foreseeable future or are the majority still looking to upgrade fairly quickly?

[rudder]

Doesn't one just slide over with one's YOS??

At some airlines, yes.

But, for example, 20 YOS might get you close to the top of right seat 777, it would only get you barely half way in the left seat. There will always be a quality of lifestyle change going from F/O to CA. (Unless you were going F/O 777 to CA A220).

Plus take a look at marginal tax rates.

In most provinces you will keep less than 45% of the uplift.

[cjp]

Doesn't one just slide over with one's YOS??

At some airlines, yes.

But, for example, 20 YOS might get you close to the top of right seat 777, it would only get you barely half way in the left seat. There will always be a quality of lifestyle change going from F/O to CA. (Unless you were going F/O 777 to CA A220).

Plus take a look at marginal tax rates.

In most provinces you will keep less than 45% of the uplift.

I don't get the tax argument. A major raise is a major raise. Most pilot's making 6 figures are paying an average tax rate between 25-40.6%.

Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

225k

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300k

Screenshot_20230719_193021_Canadian Income Tax Calculator.jpg (146.67 KiB) Viewed 2399 times

[flyingjerry]

At some airlines, yes.

But, for example, 20 YOS might get you close to the top of right seat 777, it would only get you barely half way in the left seat. There will always be a quality of lifestyle change going from F/O to CA. (Unless you were going F/O 777 to CA A220).

Plus take a look at marginal tax rates.

In most provinces you will keep less than 45% of the uplift.

I don't get the tax argument. A major raise is a major raise. Most pilot's making 6 figures are paying an average tax rate between 25-40.6%.

Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

The conversation revolves around the US where you can make 250K as an FO. The general idea is that despite a raise being a raise, it comes with a major lifestyle hit. At 250K USD +18% no match needed pension, I could imagine all of lifes' needs are covered along with many wants... there's probably lots of money leftover at the end of the month as well.

I know if it were me, I would see way more value in control of my schedule/vacation than an extra 150K/year that will be taxed at over 50%. I'd probably only upgrade when seniority allowed for the same QOL.

[rudder]

I said ‘marginal’ tax rate. Not effective tax rate.

Basically all taxable income above $220k is taxed at the top marginal rate. Depending on province of residence, that is a 50-55% rate (blended federal and provincial).

The original post was about senior FO vs upgrade. If you can make $220-250k as senior FO vs $275-300K as mid to junior CA, the incremental net income may not be worth the reduction in lifestyle.

[cdnavater]

cjp wrote:
Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

[cjp]

cjp wrote:
Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

Olive branch, I'll give it to you that at many legacy North American unionized carriers, DEC is unheard of. They will typically promote from within.

That said, who is a company more willing and excited to hire? Even if the FO had slightly more time, it's not going to be an FO. It'll be the Captains who generally get the first call. There are many international carriers that pay very well, that put you directly in the left seat with the right experience - FOs need not apply. Typically they require one of two things, 500 PIC on type or a few thousand hours PIC on similar weight and category. Delta between FO and Capt salary is significant. In the U.S smaller regionals are paying 100k day 0 for EXPERIENCED and typed Part 121 Captains, while experienced instructor pilots can earn north of 400+/hr.

Just because experience isn't valued at the most visible North American legacy carriers (Air Canada, American, Delta and United), it doesn't mean it isn't valued elsewhere in the world.

[digits_]

cjp wrote:
Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

Not to mention the right seat offers a bit more protection in a sue-happy environment.

[cdnavater]

cjp wrote:
Yes you are paying a boatload of tax - if can take advantage of an RRSP you can reduce the pain a little, but end of the day you are making more money, and you are gaining experience that trascends companies.

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

Olive branch, I'll give it to you that at many legacy North American unionized carriers, DEC is unheard of. They will typically promote from within.

That said, who is a company more willing and excited to hire? Even if the FO had slightly more time, it's not going to be an FO. It'll be the Captains who generally get the first call. There are many international carriers that pay very well, that put you directly in the left seat with the right experience - FOs need not apply. Typically they require one of two things, 500 PIC on type or a few thousand hours PIC on similar weight and category. Delta between FO and Capt salary is significant. In the U.S smaller regionals are paying 100k day 0 for EXPERIENCED and typed Part 121 Captains, while experienced instructor pilots can earn north of 400+/hr.

Just because experience isn't valued at the most visible North American legacy carriers (Air Canada, American, Delta and United), it doesn't mean it isn't valued elsewhere in the world.

Sure but we are talking legacy airline paying huge money in the right seat, these pilots are neither interested in going to Dubai or wherever nor disruption to their lifestyle for a left seat.
WJ used to almost force FOs to bid left seat the day they could hold it, they would go back to step 1 when they did and delaying it didn’t change that. They also had a socialized bidding so lifestyle was basically the same.
Now, I’m not too sure about the bidding, I know there is seniority for reserve but not sure about schedule. So, with YOS carry over to the left seat if they lose any lifestyle, you will see some stay right seat.
The fix would be a socialized bidding but that will meet resistance from more senior pilots so maybe a hybrid where the bottom 30% of the roster share the pain, creative solutions will need to happen especially with that kind of money to just sit in the right forever!
Maybe you’ll see legacy carriers hiring DECs if the positions go unfulfilled, if AC gets rid of flat pay and the money is good, you might see infilled spots there too.

[fish4life]

I’ve seen airlines have forced upgrades in reverse seniority order for those qualified so junior pilots at the company with the experience may be forced into those left seats anyway ironically enough

[Ash Ketchum]

Is the same thing happening at AC at all? Are there a lot of guys/gals who want to stay FO/RP for lifestyle reasons for the foreseeable future or are the majority still looking to upgrade fairly quickly?

Most of the newer AC hires want to upgrade ASAP but that's because of flat pay. I think things would change if that got removed.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I’ve seen airlines have forced upgrades in reverse seniority order for those qualified so junior pilots at the company with the experience may be forced into those left seats anyway ironically enough

This sounds scary. An sms should be filed.
Lol

[cjp]

Can you tell me how the experience gained transcends companies?
I’m curious because, at every airline I’m aware of including in the U.S, you start at the bottom regardless if you have 20,000 or 2000 hrs, right seat or left seat time.
If you’re at your career airline, believe me, I would take 250k for lifestyle over 300k for experience!

Olive branch, I'll give it to you that at many legacy North American unionized carriers, DEC is unheard of. They will typically promote from within.

That said, who is a company more willing and excited to hire? Even if the FO had slightly more time, it's not going to be an FO. It'll be the Captains who generally get the first call. There are many international carriers that pay very well, that put you directly in the left seat with the right experience - FOs need not apply. Typically they require one of two things, 500 PIC on type or a few thousand hours PIC on similar weight and category. Delta between FO and Capt salary is significant. In the U.S smaller regionals are paying 100k day 0 for EXPERIENCED and typed Part 121 Captains, while experienced instructor pilots can earn north of 400+/hr.

Just because experience isn't valued at the most visible North American legacy carriers (Air Canada, American, Delta and United), it doesn't mean it isn't valued elsewhere in the world.

Sure but we are talking legacy airline paying huge money in the right seat, these pilots are neither interested in going to Dubai or wherever nor disruption to their lifestyle for a left seat.
WJ used to almost force FOs to bid left seat the day they could hold it, they would go back to step 1 when they did and delaying it didn’t change that. They also had a socialized bidding so lifestyle was basically the same.
Now, I’m not too sure about the bidding, I know there is seniority for reserve but not sure about schedule. So, with YOS carry over to the left seat if they lose any lifestyle, you will see some stay right seat.
The fix would be a socialized bidding but that will meet resistance from more senior pilots so maybe a hybrid where the bottom 30% of the roster share the pain, creative solutions will need to happen especially with that kind of money to just sit in the right forever!
Maybe you’ll see legacy carriers hiring DECs if the positions go unfulfilled, if AC gets rid of flat pay and the money is good, you might see infilled spots there too.

Are we talking legacy? What happens when big red lays off? I'm talking days when the industry takes a little break off it's growth cycle, which for the moment it doesn't look like it's pumping the brakes anytime soon (awesome), but one has to be prepared.

I would much rather be in the left seat than the right for marketability and getting that paycheque premium to go along with it.

Are the salaries that close at Air Canada, that it doesn't make sense to jump to the left? They get YOS on their uograde right, same at Westjet now?

[digits_]

I would much rather be in the left seat than the right for marketability and getting that paycheque premium to go along with it.

The more people stay in the right seat, the sooner you'll have your left seat.

I think it's great people are happy where they are. The world is a much better place when you reach that state of mind (and wallet).

I'm not sure why this is considered a bad thing or a problem by other pilots.

[cdnavater]

Olive branch, I'll give it to you that at many legacy North American unionized carriers, DEC is unheard of. They will typically promote from within.

That said, who is a company more willing and excited to hire? Even if the FO had slightly more time, it's not going to be an FO. It'll be the Captains who generally get the first call. There are many international carriers that pay very well, that put you directly in the left seat with the right experience - FOs need not apply. Typically they require one of two things, 500 PIC on type or a few thousand hours PIC on similar weight and category. Delta between FO and Capt salary is significant. In the U.S smaller regionals are paying 100k day 0 for EXPERIENCED and typed Part 121 Captains, while experienced instructor pilots can earn north of 400+/hr.

Just because experience isn't valued at the most visible North American legacy carriers (Air Canada, American, Delta and United), it doesn't mean it isn't valued elsewhere in the world.

Sure but we are talking legacy airline paying huge money in the right seat, these pilots are neither interested in going to Dubai or wherever nor disruption to their lifestyle for a left seat.
WJ used to almost force FOs to bid left seat the day they could hold it, they would go back to step 1 when they did and delaying it didn’t change that. They also had a socialized bidding so lifestyle was basically the same.
Now, I’m not too sure about the bidding, I know there is seniority for reserve but not sure about schedule. So, with YOS carry over to the left seat if they lose any lifestyle, you will see some stay right seat.
The fix would be a socialized bidding but that will meet resistance from more senior pilots so maybe a hybrid where the bottom 30% of the roster share the pain, creative solutions will need to happen especially with that kind of money to just sit in the right forever!
Maybe you’ll see legacy carriers hiring DECs if the positions go unfulfilled, if AC gets rid of flat pay and the money is good, you might see infilled spots there too.

Are we talking legacy? What happens when big red lays off? I'm talking days when the industry takes a little break off it's growth cycle, which for the moment it doesn't look like it's pumping the brakes anytime soon (awesome), but one has to be prepared.

I would much rather be in the left seat than the right for marketability and getting that paycheque premium to go along with it.

Are the salaries that close at Air Canada, that it doesn't make sense to jump to the left? They get YOS on their uograde right, same at Westjet now?

Yes, this thread was about legacy airlines having FOs not bidding left seat to keep their lifestyles, I also was never chasing the paycheque and stayed FO until I had some seniority in the left, that and with little movement at the time I didn’t really have much choice, delayed it about a year.
It’s good if some prefer to sacrifice lifestyle for the left seat, so if that floats your boat, I say giver! It’s more likely that junior FOs will bid left seat since being junior Captain or junior FO is of little difference, main one being junior FO would move up faster in good times.

[cjp]

To each their own. Like I said, I don't get it - but I'm luckier than blind mouse, as my career gamble has paid off with seat, schedule and pay.

Hopefully we see some massive industry changes that provide everyone the opportunities they desire.

[nohojob]

The choice of staying in the right seat is understandable. However if one tries to jump ship at one point, it will be easier if the last job was in the left seat.

[PeterParker]

Reads like a whole lot of corporate BS to me...

n0 0n3 wAn7s to w0rK aNym0r3