New pay scale Aug 1 Dash and E2

[Blueontop]

I took my first POE flight the other week, YEG-YYZ, completely full. Was impressed with the overall experience too. Would fly again.

[DanWEC]

THIS!!!

This is what aviation in Canada needs. Amazing! I can't imagine how anyone who isn't at perhaps AC isn't immediately putting a resume in.

Jazz isn't going to double salaries, they just don't care. I'd even be surprised if AC does much of an increase, that entire red organization just seems abhorrent to their pilots.

I could see junior TS guys leaving as well. It's too many years making substandard money at the junior end of the FO scale, and no YOS on upgrade 5 years later. Nothing changing till 2025 at least. Now there's the option to add 50k overnight as an FO and 100k within months with a quick upgrade on the jet.

Thank you Porter!

[CaptainHaddock]

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[twa22]

Stay classy dude. Hope it works out for you. You'll realize at some point in your career a contract is so much more than pay scales.

Really? Like that 17 year contract at Jazz, where the number 1 selling point was flow, which is now no longer being honored for the time being? Oh, how about that other clause where Jazz was to be the only CPA carrier until 2026? That worked out just like the contracted stated *cough* PAL *cough*

Let's be honest with each other, while a union can offer certain "protections", Porter has seemingly pulled their weight and offered appropriate wages for 2023 and aircraft type flown, when they didn't have to... As far as I'm aware, almost all 705s, except AC, have an attraction and retention issue, it just seems like Porter has gotten with the times first... WJ did alright with their new contract, but it could've been better, much better

It isnt the money nor the contract, the real winner is whoever is still up & running a decade or 2 from now.

Yea that's very true, time will tell

[Heavy Rayn]

THIS!!!

This is what aviation in Canada needs. Amazing! I can't imagine how anyone who isn't at perhaps AC isn't immediately putting a resume in.

Jazz isn't going to double salaries, they just don't care. I'd even be surprised if AC does much of an increase, that entire red organization just seems abhorrent to their pilots.

I could see junior TS guys leaving as well. It's too many years making substandard money at the junior end of the FO scale, and no YOS on upgrade 5 years later. Nothing changing till 2025 at least. Now there's the option to add 50k overnight as an FO and 100k within months with a quick upgrade on the jet.

Thank you Porter!

What’re the upgrade times/requirements for both the Q and the E2?

[CaptDukeNukem]

THIS!!!

This is what aviation in Canada needs. Amazing! I can't imagine how anyone who isn't at perhaps AC isn't immediately putting a resume in.

Jazz isn't going to double salaries, they just don't care. I'd even be surprised if AC does much of an increase, that entire red organization just seems abhorrent to their pilots.

I could see junior TS guys leaving as well. It's too many years making substandard money at the junior end of the FO scale, and no YOS on upgrade 5 years later. Nothing changing till 2025 at least. Now there's the option to add 50k overnight as an FO and 100k within months with a quick upgrade on the jet.

Thank you Porter!

What’re the upgrade times/requirements for both the Q and the E2?

This is the current matrix:

1. The minimum qualifications to upgrade from Dash 8-400 First Officer to Dash 8-400 Captain are as follows (either Option may be applied):
a) Option A - Minimum 2000h PIC AND 500 hours on type (Dash ) ; or
b) Option B – 3500 hours total time AND 500 hours on type (Dash( and one of the following:
• Minimum 750 PIC; or
• Minimum 500 hours Multi Engine Turbine PIC.

2. The minimum qualifications for upgrade on the E195-E2 are divided into several options; any of the following options may be applied:
a) 4500 hours total time and one of:
i) 500 hours PIC on type variant (E170/175/190/195, E1/E2);
ii) 1000 hours PIC on either EFIS Transport Category Aircraft Heavy Turboprop OR jet over 44000 lbs MTOW (as per CAR 705 or equivalent);
iii) 1000 hours total time transport category jet; or
iv) 500 hours PIC on either EFIS Transport Category Aircraft Heavy Turboprop OR jet over 44000 lbs MTOW (as per CAR 705 or equivalent), AND 500 hours total time transport category jet;
b) 4000 hours total time and 500 hours PIC on type variant (E170/175/190/195, E1/E2) and one of:
i) 500 hours PIC on EFIS Transport Category Aircraft Heavy Turboprop; or
ii) 500 hours PIC jet over 44000 lbs MTOW (as per CAR 705 or equivalent); or
c) 3000 (notes 2,3) hours total time and one of:
i) 1000 hours time on type variant(E170/175/190/195, E1/E2) and, in addition, 500 hours total
time transport category jet(note 4); or
ii) 1500 hours time on type variant (E170/175/190/195, E1/E2).
Note: These experience requirements do not apply to a Porter Dash 8-400 Captain moving to an E195- E2 Captain position; this is considered a transition, not an upgrade. See Section 5.4.11.

Note 1: Second Officer (S/O) flight time: half of the total S/O time can be credited towards total time, up to
a maximum of 500 hours.
Note 2: Required to have completed an initial PPC, two (2) recurrent PPC/LOFT, and two (2) successful Line Checks.
Note 3: Required to have completed 18 months of active flying duty with Porter Airlines prior to commencing Captain Upgrade Training.
Note 4: 500 hours Transport Category Jet is separate from and does not include time on the E195-E2. Note 5: Pilot in Command time on type variant.
Note 6: As per CAR 705 or equivalent.

ALSO, big note….. there is currently no upgrade command course approved by TC for the E2. This is in the mail, however at this moment of posting, no E2 FO can upgrade to E2 capt. I expect this will change soon.

[Timetoflyagain]

If it wasn’t for WJ ALPA recently signing a significant deal, including the elimination of swoop, I highly doubt that Porter would be comming to their pilots with this new benchmark. That’s why it’s called a benchmark. Typical Canadian pilots slamming other Canadian pilots. congrats to the Porter pilots who stepped up to the plate and forced managements hand

It's true, we have them to thank for the recent bump, and for pulling out of eastern Canada.

Thanks guys.

…and the WJ recent bump is because of Porter’s previous massive bump last Spring..which broke the pay/weight/seats formula.
..as for the Porter pilots who “forced” management’s hand…the ‘70’s just called and wants their socialist labour mindset back…attracting and keeping valuable talented labour is simply good business..and this is showing that Porter’s management is playing to win.

[Aviationanalysis234]

I understand from friends at Porter that it was also announced that DECs on the D8 will receive a one time bonus for joining. That's in addition to much higher pay scales that have leap frogged the competition, YOS recognition for time on D8 type, and the fasted path by far to a narrowbody left seat in Canada. Does anyone have details on the signing bonus?

[Chaxterium]

Does anyone have details on the signing bonus?

Nothing yet from what I can see. The slide presentation that was sent to everyone yesterday said the company is still deciding on a number.

[rudder]

In descending order of the carriers that this announcement looks the worst for:

1. Jazz
2. Encore
3. Any other Q400 operator
4. Any ULCC
5. Cargo operators
6. Transat
7. WJ
8. AC

Some pilots from the aforementioned carriers will move unless their local WAWCON matches or exceeds POE.

Some pilots applying to the aforementioned carriers may reconsider their top choices.

POE may also be trying to dissuade defection to AC. But that career choice is based on career earnings/pension/etc not year 1/2/3/4.

Obviously, job security is a major factor. Some are more risk tolerant than others. And other than AC/WJ there really is no such thing as a guaranteed job for life in Canada.

[Aviationanalysis234]

In descending order of the carriers that this announcement looks the worst for:

1. Jazz
2. Encore
3. Any other Q400 operator
4. Any ULCC
5. Cargo operators
6. Transat
7. WJ
8. AC

Some pilots from the aforementioned carriers will move unless their local WAWCON matches or exceeds POE.

Some pilots applying to the aforementioned carriers may reconsider their top choices.

POE may also be trying to dissuade defection to AC. But that career choice is based on career earnings/pension/etc not year 1/2/3/4.

Obviously, job security is a major factor. Some are more risk tolerant than others. And other than AC/WJ there really is no such thing as a guaranteed job for life in Canada.

It would be interesting to see what career earnings look like at Porter vs AC. I imagine they are much closer than expected. With Porter you make more on same scale in early years and will advance to left seat narrowbody within a few years, as opposed to AC which will take many more years. I think a lot of Porter pilots will pause before thinking of starting at the bottom at AC.

[Daigo]

Why is everyone assuming that AC won't be effected by this?? Y5 captain on the E2 makes more than an AC captain. At AC it takes you much much longer to be sitting on the left seat, and even once you get there a porter captain will be set to make more than you in a few years. And much more than you by the end of the scale

[Aviationanalysis234]

Why is everyone assuming that AC won't be effected by this?? Y5 captain on the E2 makes more than an AC captain. At AC it takes you much much longer to be sitting on the left seat, and even once you get there a porter captain will be set to make more than you in a few years. And much more than you by the end of the scale

Unless a pilots career objective is to fly a wide body at any cost to career earnings your right, I believe Porter would provide greater lifetime earnings than the AC path. And who knows, maybe Porter will also have wide bodies 5 to 10 years from now once their narrowbody expansion is complete.

[smooth]

AC yyz narrow body CA is about 2-3 years for upgrade. And the lowest A220 CA starting around 200k. Hopefully AC's new contract can be better by end of 2023.

Why is everyone assuming that AC won't be effected by this?? Y5 captain on the E2 makes more than an AC captain. At AC it takes you much much longer to be sitting on the left seat, and even once you get there a porter captain will be set to make more than you in a few years. And much more than you by the end of the scale

[cjp]

AC yyz narrow body CA is about 2-3 years for upgrade. And the lowest A220 CA starting around 200k. Hopefully AC's new contract can be better by end of 2023.

Why is everyone assuming that AC won't be effected by this?? Y5 captain on the E2 makes more than an AC captain. At AC it takes you much much longer to be sitting on the left seat, and even once you get there a porter captain will be set to make more than you in a few years. And much more than you by the end of the scale

How many are actually taking that upgrade? My guess is being the lowest seniority Captain in the entire company would be a tough pill to swallow for anyone other than a single person who loves reserve.

[flyingcanuck]

AC yyz narrow body CA is about 2-3 years for upgrade. And the lowest A220 CA starting around 200k. Hopefully AC's new contract can be better by end of 2023.

Why is everyone assuming that AC won't be effected by this?? Y5 captain on the E2 makes more than an AC captain. At AC it takes you much much longer to be sitting on the left seat, and even once you get there a porter captain will be set to make more than you in a few years. And much more than you by the end of the scale

How many are actually taking that upgrade? My guess is being the lowest seniority Captain in the entire company would be a tough pill to swallow for anyone other than a single person who loves reserve.

every bid its full

[smooth]

.

[smooth]

Breaking the flat pay from 60k to 200k in 2-3 years, yes I will take the lowest on the list for 200k

AC yyz narrow body CA is about 2-3 years for upgrade. And the lowest A220 CA starting around 200k. Hopefully AC's new contract can be better by end of 2023.

Why is everyone assuming that AC won't be effected by this?? Y5 captain on the E2 makes more than an AC captain. At AC it takes you much much longer to be sitting on the left seat, and even once you get there a porter captain will be set to make more than you in a few years. And much more than you by the end of the scale

How many are actually taking that upgrade? My guess is being the lowest seniority Captain in the entire company would be a tough pill to swallow for anyone other than a single person who loves reserve.

[rudder]

Breaking the flat pay from 60k to 200k in 2-3 years, yes I will take the lowest on the list for 200k

quote=cjp post_id=1269357 time=1690385414 user_id=57948]

AC yyz narrow body CA is about 2-3 years for upgrade. And the lowest A220 CA starting around 200k. Hopefully AC's new contract can be better by end of 2023.

Why is everyone assuming that AC won't be effected by this?? Y5 captain on the E2 makes more than an AC captain. At AC it takes you much much longer to be sitting on the left seat, and even once you get there a porter captain will be set to make more than you in a few years. And much more than you by the end of the scale

How many are actually taking that upgrade? My guess is being the lowest seniority Captain in the entire company would be a tough pill to swallow for anyone other than a single person who loves reserve.

Quoting current AC pay rates as a comparison is pointless. AC is looking at WJ+ rates.

Is AC part of the ‘formula’ that sets POE E2 rates?

[flyinhigh]

Breaking the flat pay from 60k to 200k in 2-3 years, yes I will take the lowest on the list for 200k

quote=cjp post_id=1269357 time=1690385414 user_id=57948]

AC yyz narrow body CA is about 2-3 years for upgrade. And the lowest A220 CA starting around 200k. Hopefully AC's new contract can be better by end of 2023.

How many are actually taking that upgrade? My guess is being the lowest seniority Captain in the entire company would be a tough pill to swallow for anyone other than a single person who loves reserve.

Quoting current AC pay rates as a comparison is pointless. AC is looking at WJ+ rates.

Is AC part of the ‘formula’ that sets POE E2 rates?

Yes, from the 220 I believe.

[Dronepiper]

Well, lets remember that Porter only has 132 seats on their E2’s. If they can afford $270/hr top captain, that equates to $2.04/seat per hour.

This means that a legacy carrier like AC can happily afford $344/hr top scale on their 169 seat Max 8, or if we want to get absolutely crazy with numbers, $913/hr on their high density B777 that has 448 seats.

Now for obvious reasons, AC will never see $913/hr for a captain, but why is it crazy to not expect half of that? $450/hr top scale Captain on the B777 is close to in-line with Americans.

Everyone should check to see what AC is charging for economy tickets to/fm Asia this summer. It’s absolutely bonkers.

[rudder]

Well, lets remember that Porter only has 132 seats on their E2’s. If they can afford $270/hr top captain, that equates to $2.04/seat per hour.

This means that a legacy carrier like AC can happily afford $344/hr top scale on their 169 seat Max 8, or if we want to get absolutely crazy with numbers, $913/hr on their high density B777 that has 448 seats.

Now for obvious reasons, AC will never see $913/hr for a captain, but why is it crazy to not expect half of that? $450/hr top scale Captain on the B777 is close to in-line with Americans.

Everyone should check to see what AC is charging for economy tickets to/fm Asia this summer. It’s absolutely bonkers.

Those POE rates are only impactful 12 years in to the future (everybody on the E2 started at Y1 pay - correct?).

AC will be light years out ahead of those rates.

And don’t forget pension (many seem to). It should be apples vs apples conversation. A new-hire at AC that does 30 years will be looking at a $120-150k/yr pension.

[YHZCL]

E2 DEC application portal removed from website? Did it take only 24 hours to crash that application link or fill all the DEC spots?

*Disregard, it’s back. Maybe it did in fact crash.

[cjp]

Breaking the flat pay from 60k to 200k in 2-3 years, yes I will take the lowest on the list for 200k

quote=cjp post_id=1269357 time=1690385414 user_id=57948]


How many are actually taking that upgrade? My guess is being the lowest seniority Captain in the entire company would be a tough pill to swallow for anyone other than a single person who loves reserve.

Quoting current AC pay rates as a comparison is pointless. AC is looking at WJ+ rates.

Is AC part of the ‘formula’ that sets POE E2 rates?

Yes, from the 220 I believe.

320 I think in the last bench, as well as 737s from other operators.

Yeah I guess the power of poverty will move people to take a drop in lifestyle.

[braaap Braap]

Well, lets remember that Porter only has 132 seats on their E2’s. If they can afford $270/hr top captain, that equates to $2.04/seat per hour.

This means that a legacy carrier like AC can happily afford $344/hr top scale on their 169 seat Max 8, or if we want to get absolutely crazy with numbers, $913/hr on their high density B777 that has 448 seats.

Now for obvious reasons, AC will never see $913/hr for a captain, but why is it crazy to not expect half of that? $450/hr top scale Captain on the B777 is close to in-line with Americans.

Everyone should check to see what AC is charging for economy tickets to/fm Asia this summer. It’s absolutely bonkers.

Those POE rates are only impactful 12 years in to the future (everybody on the E2 started at Y1 pay - correct?).

AC will be light years out ahead of those rates.

And don’t forget pension (many seem to). It should be apples vs apples conversation. A new-hire at AC that does 30 years will be looking at a $120-150k/yr pension.

Lets hope! More fuel for the benchmark. In the end we need pilot unity not a dick swinging contest.

Where does an outsider get information/understand the pension? 6% plus a 10% company contribution? Porter has 9% and a 9% company contribution at the top.