New pay scale Aug 1 Dash and E2

[mmm...bacon]

I think that there’s a StarWars metaphor in here somewhere…

After years of corruption in the Senate, a New Hope arises..however, the Empire striking back is not too far around the corner…

[currysonic]

If it wasn’t for WJ ALPA recently signing a significant deal, including the elimination of swoop, I highly doubt that Porter would be comming to their pilots with this new benchmark. That’s why it’s called a benchmark. Typical Canadian pilots slamming other Canadian pilots. congrats to the Porter pilots who stepped up to the plate and forced managements hand

Exactly! Pattern bargaining is working!

[rudder]

Well, lets remember that Porter only has 132 seats on their E2’s. If they can afford $270/hr top captain, that equates to $2.04/seat per hour.

This means that a legacy carrier like AC can happily afford $344/hr top scale on their 169 seat Max 8, or if we want to get absolutely crazy with numbers, $913/hr on their high density B777 that has 448 seats.

Now for obvious reasons, AC will never see $913/hr for a captain, but why is it crazy to not expect half of that? $450/hr top scale Captain on the B777 is close to in-line with Americans.

Everyone should check to see what AC is charging for economy tickets to/fm Asia this summer. It’s absolutely bonkers.

Those POE rates are only impactful 12 years in to the future (everybody on the E2 started at Y1 pay - correct?).

AC will be light years out ahead of those rates.

And don’t forget pension (many seem to). It should be apples vs apples conversation. A new-hire at AC that does 30 years will be looking at a $120-150k/yr pension.

Lets hope! More fuel for the benchmark. In the end we need pilot unity not a dick swinging contest.

Where does an outsider get information/understand the pension? 6% plus a 10% company contribution? Porter has 9% and a 9% company contribution at the top.

Both AC and POE are deficient in that they have an ‘at the top’ progression. How does that help a new-hire DEC? Or any new-hire for that matter.

AC uses the contributions to fund a CWIPP. Perhaps POE should consider same. WJ ALPA is also looking at allocating towards CWIPP. In order to accrue a reasonable benefit, you will require the 18% total annual contribution. Employer/employee can fight over the allocation sharing

[bob99]

Why is everyone assuming that AC won't be effected by this?? Y5 captain on the E2 makes more than an AC captain. At AC it takes you much much longer to be sitting on the left seat, and even once you get there a porter captain will be set to make more than you in a few years. And much more than you by the end of the scale

This may have been asked already, but does Porter give YOS for right to left? Or does every single pilot start at yr 1?

[flyinhigh]

No YOS with Porter.

[flying4dollars]

I'd love to know how many applications are coming in from each airline. If Porter is opening YHZ with the jet, I wouldn't be surprised to see AC new hires from the East Coast resign and move over. I'm totally speculating of course but eliminating the commute from one's life to an operation that seems legitimately viable is a very big quality of life improvement. Especially with the pay bump. Time will tell but good on you Porter folk! This is a win for our profession in this country.

[smooth]

With AC's pension plan(CWIPP) and stock buying/matching program(ESOP). You saved way more money at AC. Also don't forget benefits and insurance are 100% covered at AC. Like above already mention, YOS don't carry left to right nor from dash to E2 (unless you have more than 10yr on dash)



And again, let's see what AC's new contract going to be

Well, lets remember that Porter only has 132 seats on their E2’s. If they can afford $270/hr top captain, that equates to $2.04/seat per hour.

This means that a legacy carrier like AC can happily afford $344/hr top scale on their 169 seat Max 8, or if we want to get absolutely crazy with numbers, $913/hr on their high density B777 that has 448 seats.

Now for obvious reasons, AC will never see $913/hr for a captain, but why is it crazy to not expect half of that? $450/hr top scale Captain on the B777 is close to in-line with Americans.

Everyone should check to see what AC is charging for economy tickets to/fm Asia this summer. It’s absolutely bonkers.

Those POE rates are only impactful 12 years in to the future (everybody on the E2 started at Y1 pay - correct?).

AC will be light years out ahead of those rates.

And don’t forget pension (many seem to). It should be apples vs apples conversation. A new-hire at AC that does 30 years will be looking at a $120-150k/yr pension.

[cjp]

With AC's pension plan(CWIPP) and stock buying/matching program(ESOP). You saved way more money at AC. Also don't forget benefits and insurance are 100% covered at AC. Like above already mention, YOS don't carry left to right nor from dash to E2 (unless you have more than 10yr on dash)



And again, let's see what AC's new contract going to be

Well, lets remember that Porter only has 132 seats on their E2’s. If they can afford $270/hr top captain, that equates to $2.04/seat per hour.

This means that a legacy carrier like AC can happily afford $344/hr top scale on their 169 seat Max 8, or if we want to get absolutely crazy with numbers, $913/hr on their high density B777 that has 448 seats.

Now for obvious reasons, AC will never see $913/hr for a captain, but why is it crazy to not expect half of that? $450/hr top scale Captain on the B777 is close to in-line with Americans.

Everyone should check to see what AC is charging for economy tickets to/fm Asia this summer. It’s absolutely bonkers.

Those POE rates are only impactful 12 years in to the future (everybody on the E2 started at Y1 pay - correct?).

AC will be light years out ahead of those rates.

And don’t forget pension (many seem to). It should be apples vs apples conversation. A new-hire at AC that does 30 years will be looking at a $120-150k/yr pension.

Enjoy AC bud! Hopefully they get their contract sorted out soon, as I'm looking forward to a 2nd raise this year.

[rudder]

With AC's pension plan(CWIPP) and stock buying/matching program(ESOP). You saved way more money at AC. Also don't forget benefits and insurance are 100% covered at AC. Like above already mention, YOS don't carry left to right nor from dash to E2 (unless you have more than 10yr on dash)

Current CWIPP benefit formula is a 1.9% benefit for an 18% contribution.

So @$200k the earned retirement benefit for that year is $3800 (non-indexed). @$250k the earned benefit would be $4750.

If the AVERAGE earnings for 30 years was $250k/yr then the retirement benefit would be $142,500

The benefit is subject to adjustment (downwards) if the funding status of the plan (due to investment returns) is deficient. That has never happened yet.

This is a good vehicle to be considered by non-DB employers and pilots. It is clearly more effective for high income earners and intended long term employees.

Employer paid benefit premiums is worth a lot but MUST include long term comprehensive profession specific disability coverage.

[rudder]

.

[smooth]

Yes, it's good for everybody, it's the best time in Canadian aviation to negotiate our pay.

With AC's pension plan(CWIPP) and stock buying/matching program(ESOP). You saved way more money at AC. Also don't forget benefits and insurance are 100% covered at AC. Like above already mention, YOS don't carry left to right nor from dash to E2 (unless you have more than 10yr on dash)



And again, let's see what AC's new contract going to be

Those POE rates are only impactful 12 years in to the future (everybody on the E2 started at Y1 pay - correct?).

AC will be light years out ahead of those rates.

And don’t forget pension (many seem to). It should be apples vs apples conversation. A new-hire at AC that does 30 years will be looking at a $120-150k/yr pension.

Enjoy AC bud! Hopefully they get their contract sorted out soon, as I'm looking forward to a 2nd raise this year.

[Aviationanalysis234]

I just heard that any D8 DEC type rated pilots that join a class prior to October 31st 2023 will also receive a $25k one time hiring bonus. This is on top of YOS recognition for time on Type and industry leading pay scales.

[Aviationanalysis234]

From Porter COO.

"To all Porter Pilots:

This week, Michael Deluce and the Pilot FOAG Committee jointly announced several improvements to the Porter Pilot salary package for both the Embraer E195 and with special emphasis on the Dash 8 fleet.

This new salary offering from Porter positions the company as the industry leader in pilot compensation on the Dash 8-400 fleet and a highly competitive salary package on the Embraer E195-E2.

In addition, Porter is implementing an industry leading salary compensation package for “Time on Type” for the Dash 8-400 fleet whereby a pilot from another 705 carrier with a Dash 8-400 Type Rating will join Porter with their years of service recognized in that rank as Captain or First Officer. As an example, a six-year Captain from another Dash 8-400 operator will have their years as a Captain recognized and start their career at Porter at year six.

Note that this experience is recognized for the purposes of starting salary, but all new hires continue to join Porter without any improved seniority benefits. Our strategy continues to recognize one master seniority list for both fleets and has proven highly successful in allowing tenured Porter pilots the opportunity to advance their careers. With our expansion, Porter is offering current and new pilots the fastest opportunity to upgrade to a Captain on a narrow body aircraft in Canada. Also, with an expected hiring of 1,200 pilots over the next four years, all current and new team members will quickly move up in seniority.

In addition, for Dash 8-400 pilots joining Porter as a Captain with a Type Rating, Porter will be offering a $25,000 one-time signing bonus for classes starting prior to October 31, 2023.

Many other improvements were identified and implemented by the Pilot FOAG Committee that will address concerns related to scheduling, resulting in improved work-life balance for all pilots.

The addition of up to 100 E195-E2 jets is just beginning and the career opportunities for pilots at Porter are endless.

Congratulations to the Pilot FOAG Committee for having the vision to place Porter as a career destination for pilots in Canada and we look forward to welcoming many new pilots in the weeks, months and years ahead.

Best regards,

Kent"

[Aspiredtofly]

Were just getting closer towards jazz calling for bankruptcy and a new generation of pilots finally working for slightly appropriate wages

[TheAlcalde]

Is this a move for Peter to be the new CPA partner for AC?

[rudder]

Stick a fork in Jazz.

Every single Q pilot - including top scale (18+ YOS) - can start at Porter at equal or higher wages.

Want a $25k bonus for arriving type endorsed? Sure.

Want a YHZ base? Sure. Want a YOW base? Sure. No more commuting.

Want to be an E-jet CA that goes from 95-144k straight to $190k? Sure.

Want a good gig while waiting for AC to call? Sure.

POE has done a great job at picking out everything that is deficient in the current Jazz WAWCON and aimed offers at each demographic.

Jazz/AC economic response? Nothing.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see POE become the new #1 hiring target for AC.

Porter has a plan. I am glad that somebody does.

[Aspiredtofly]

Porter pilots trying not to become narcissistic leaving the airport

[MrAviator19]

With AC's pension plan(CWIPP) and stock buying/matching program(ESOP). You saved way more money at AC. Also don't forget benefits and insurance are 100% covered at AC. Like above already mention, YOS don't carry left to right nor from dash to E2 (unless you have more than 10yr on dash)

Current CWIPP benefit formula is a 1.9% benefit for an 18% contribution.

So @$200k the earned retirement benefit for that year is $3800 (non-indexed). @$250k the earned benefit would be $4750.

If the AVERAGE earnings for 30 years was $250k/yr then the retirement benefit would be $142,500

The benefit is subject to adjustment (downwards) if the funding status of the plan (due to investment returns) is deficient. That has never happened yet.

This is a good vehicle to be considered by non-DB employers and pilots. It is clearly more effective for high income earners and intended long term employees.

Employer paid benefit premiums is worth a lot but MUST include long term comprehensive profession specific disability coverage.

...EXCEPT this is Canada and the average earnings for 30 years for any pilot here will never reach $250K unless you upgraded to narrow-body CA in your early-20s and got to top rate by your mid-30s (very unlikely). And also not unless you became wide-body CA in the late 90s or early 2000s but even then you hardly have over 15-20 yrs of flying at the top rate. The math looks good on paper but cannot be achieved in the Canadian aviation landscape.

MrA

[mmm...bacon]

From Porter COO.

"With our expansion, Porter is offering current and new pilots the fastest opportunity to upgrade to a Captain on a narrow body aircraft in Canada. Also, with an expected hiring of 1,200 pilots over the next four years, all current and new team members will quickly move up in seniority.

Best regards,

Kent"

Not to be too much of a party-pooper, but where are all of the paying passengers going to come from to fill the tails needed to seat those 1200 pilot bums? We’ve now got AC, Jazz, WJ, Encore, Flair, Lynx, and Porter all chasing the same pool of ~39 Million Canadians. Those very same Canadians who are struggling with huge cost of living increases, declining productivity, increasing mortgage rates, and incredibly high urban real-estate costs..
Somebody mentioned Porter as an alternative to an HZ based AC new hire - I f I were lucky enough to be in that situation, id’ be thinking long and hard about the longevity of any sideways move that I made, no matter how much money was on the table initially…

[rudder]

With AC's pension plan(CWIPP) and stock buying/matching program(ESOP). You saved way more money at AC. Also don't forget benefits and insurance are 100% covered at AC. Like above already mention, YOS don't carry left to right nor from dash to E2 (unless you have more than 10yr on dash)

Current CWIPP benefit formula is a 1.9% benefit for an 18% contribution.

So @$200k the earned retirement benefit for that year is $3800 (non-indexed). @$250k the earned benefit would be $4750.

If the AVERAGE earnings for 30 years was $250k/yr then the retirement benefit would be $142,500

The benefit is subject to adjustment (downwards) if the funding status of the plan (due to investment returns) is deficient. That has never happened yet.

This is a good vehicle to be considered by non-DB employers and pilots. It is clearly more effective for high income earners and intended long term employees.

Employer paid benefit premiums is worth a lot but MUST include long term comprehensive profession specific disability coverage.

...EXCEPT this is Canada and the average earnings for 30 years for any pilot here will never reach $250K unless you upgraded to narrow-body CA in your early-20s and got to top rate by your mid-30s (very unlikely). And also not unless you became wide-body CA in the late 90s or early 2000s but even then you hardly have over 15-20 yrs of flying at the top rate. The math looks good on paper but cannot be achieved in the Canadian aviation landscape.

MrA

You are looking backwards.

Going forward (at AC) $250k avg is easily achieved. Top scale CA rates at AC are already $250-350k and are going to be going up significantly within 12 months.

And POE effectively has E2 pilots staring at $200k.

[bob99]

With AC's pension plan(CWIPP) and stock buying/matching program(ESOP). You saved way more money at AC. Also don't forget benefits and insurance are 100% covered at AC. Like above already mention, YOS don't carry left to right nor from dash to E2 (unless you have more than 10yr on dash)

Current CWIPP benefit formula is a 1.9% benefit for an 18% contribution.

So @$200k the earned retirement benefit for that year is $3800 (non-indexed). @$250k the earned benefit would be $4750.

If the AVERAGE earnings for 30 years was $250k/yr then the retirement benefit would be $142,500

The benefit is subject to adjustment (downwards) if the funding status of the plan (due to investment returns) is deficient. That has never happened yet.

This is a good vehicle to be considered by non-DB employers and pilots. It is clearly more effective for high income earners and intended long term employees.

Employer paid benefit premiums is worth a lot but MUST include long term comprehensive profession specific disability coverage.

...EXCEPT this is Canada and the average earnings for 30 years for any pilot here will never reach $250K unless you upgraded to narrow-body CA in your early-20s and got to top rate by your mid-30s (very unlikely). And also not unless you became wide-body CA in the late 90s or early 2000s but even then you hardly have over 15-20 yrs of flying at the top rate. The math looks good on paper but cannot be achieved in the Canadian aviation landscape.

MrA

250k average is easily achievable at AC and you don't need to start in your 20s. In 8 years YR 8 pay for a 320 captain is 254k. In 12 years a year 12 captain is 286. Remember you keep your yos when upgrading. I started in my 30s and don't plan on ever touching a WB. The estimator shows I'll average over 300k.

[cjp]

Yes, it's good for everybody, it's the best time in Canadian aviation to negotiate our pay.

With AC's pension plan(CWIPP) and stock buying/matching program(ESOP). You saved way more money at AC. Also don't forget benefits and insurance are 100% covered at AC. Like above already mention, YOS don't carry left to right nor from dash to E2 (unless you have more than 10yr on dash)



And again, let's see what AC's new contract going to be

Enjoy AC bud! Hopefully they get their contract sorted out soon, as I'm looking forward to a 2nd raise this year.

%

[braaap Braap]

Porter pilots trying not to become narcissistic leaving the airport

Narcissistic? We got a salary bump, sure (thanks FOAG!)

but we also got:
- Worse commuting policy
- No clear plans on "sunsetting grey days" (company will drag this out as long as they can)
- still can't effectively trade, drop, swap (since covid)
- E2 people won't be bidding till October
- Reserve callout and assignment is about to get a whole lot worse
- Another load of "Our best efforts" "Isn't our intention" "continue to email in" (so the emails can go ignored cause the FOAG doesn't have the resources to actually respond)
- A menial trickle of Dash to E2 transfers
- New base positions being restricted to 33%
- Bait and Switched with a YUL base (that somehow had all the slots reserved for new hires)
- A whole host of special favours to attract new people (while the ones who have been through the rollercoaster get their QOL issues ignored)


This was a very calculated exercise, I'll give them that much. It plugs the immediate cracks in their successful expansion plans. You all on the outside are jumping for joy while many here are dusting off logbooks and updating resumes as we've seen exactly what a "Flexible FOAG" can do for us. Company will continually do whatever they want (move goalposts, special favours, ignore, delay) while we either stick our heads in the sand or get fed up and leave. Porter management: Stop throwing money at us and fix the dumpster fire that is our QOL. Attracting 5 and losing 3 is not the way to get your pilot numbers up.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Porter pilots trying not to become narcissistic leaving the airport

Narcissistic? We got a salary bump, sure (thanks FOAG!)

but we also got:
- Worse commuting policy
- No clear plans on "sunsetting grey days" (company will drag this out as long as they can)
- still can't effectively trade, drop, swap (since covid)
- E2 people won't be bidding till October
- Reserve callout and assignment is about to get a whole lot worse
- Another load of "Our best efforts" "Isn't our intention" "continue to email in" (so the emails can go ignored cause the FOAG doesn't have the resources to actually respond)
- A menial trickle of Dash to E2 transfers
- New base positions being restricted to 33%
- Bait and Switched with a YUL base (that somehow had all the slots reserved for new hires)
- A whole host of special favours to attract new people (while the ones who have been through the rollercoaster get their QOL issues ignored)


This was a very calculated exercise, I'll give them that much. It plugs the immediate cracks in their successful expansion plans. You all on the outside are jumping for joy while many here are dusting off logbooks and updating resumes as we've seen exactly what a "Flexible FOAG" can do for us. Company will continually do whatever they want (move goalposts, special favours, ignore, delay) while we either stick our heads in the sand or get fed up and leave. Porter management: Stop throwing money at us and fix the dumpster fire that is our QOL. Attracting 5 and losing 3 is not the way to get your pilot numbers up.

Don’t be so sour dude. Your time will come…. Sooner than later.

I’m sorry that you feel that this FOAG upgrade isn’t exactly what you wanted. There’s more to come. Just wait.

Massive expansion plans such as something that porter is trying to attempt requires extremely high qualified talent and trainers/ACPs to join the forces. This is what they have been doing.

You said new bases are RESTRICTED to 33% but that’s not true…. 33% MINIMUM of all bids will go to existing crew until all internal bids are exhausted. So everyone currently hired will get there… eventually.

They made progress on grey days. It’s gonna still take some time. While that happens, enjoy the double pay on those days.

The commuting policy was worse before and literally listed city pairs. At least now people can commute from cities that weren’t previously only dash-8 operations. Again, also an improvement.

You CAN trade, you just have to figure it out with colleagues at the moment and talk to CS. Is this the best system…..NO. But again, it’s possible.

I’m on your side about the FOAG violations. Someone should be assigned to look into these. And from the last meeting, it sounds like that’s gonna be something going forward.

From your concerns, I assume you are on the Dash list. If I’m wrong, then I sincerely apologize. If I’m right, I expect that you are upset about the speed of movement onto the jet, or possibly bases.

The bait and switch you’re talking about was porter hiring YUL based ACPs and trainers. Which are literally required in order to process more people from the dash. In order to attract, you may have to give. Also, you’re wrong about it all going to external hires. They hired 2 people outside of the company for YUL base. The rest were internal Previously hired that commutes to YYZ from YUL.

Yes concessions may have been made and people got YUL base ahead of others who deserve it. But without this, we possibly couldn’t have made it happen.

You’re also forgetting e2 rates bypass pay for those dash pilots that get bumped back from their transition date. There’s lots of upgrades in this FOAG revision. Easy to state to what you don’t like.

Also. Just for some math. Attracting 5 and losing 3 is absolutely net pilot growth of +2. So yea it’s growing ranks. Better than jazz…. Losing 40 but hiring 16.
Pick your poison.

[CaptDukeNukem]

From Porter COO.

"With our expansion, Porter is offering current and new pilots the fastest opportunity to upgrade to a Captain on a narrow body aircraft in Canada. Also, with an expected hiring of 1,200 pilots over the next four years, all current and new team members will quickly move up in seniority.

Best regards,

Kent"

Not to be too much of a party-pooper, but where are all of the paying passengers going to come from to fill the tails needed to seat those 1200 pilot bums? We’ve now got AC, Jazz, WJ, Encore, Flair, Lynx, and Porter all chasing the same pool of ~39 Million Canadians. Those very same Canadians who are struggling with huge cost of living increases, declining productivity, increasing mortgage rates, and incredibly high urban real-estate costs..
Somebody mentioned Porter as an alternative to an HZ based AC new hire - I f I were lucky enough to be in that situation, id’ be thinking long and hard about the longevity of any sideways move that I made, no matter how much money was on the table initially…

Arguably, this is where code-sharing and trans border/ international destinations kick in. 39 million people is not the market. And the products offered are different.