New pay scale Aug 1 Dash and E2

[josejimenes33]

Is the YHZ base opening for E2 a solid info?

[braaap Braap]

Is the YHZ base opening for E2 a solid info?

Its been talked about and I would bet eventually it shows up, but no guarantees nor timelines to set it up yet.

[DanWEC]

Current CWIPP benefit formula is a 1.9% benefit for an 18% contribution.

So @$200k the earned retirement benefit for that year is $3800 (non-indexed). @$250k the earned benefit would be $4750.

If the AVERAGE earnings for 30 years was $250k/yr then the retirement benefit would be $142,500

The benefit is subject to adjustment (downwards) if the funding status of the plan (due to investment returns) is deficient. That has never happened yet.

This is a good vehicle to be considered by non-DB employers and pilots. It is clearly more effective for high income earners and intended long term employees.

Employer paid benefit premiums is worth a lot but MUST include long term comprehensive profession specific disability coverage.

Rudder, is there a calculator or estimator for the AC pension scheme? I'm curious as to what a new hire today could garner as retirement income with only 20 years of service.

[Blueontop]

Current CWIPP benefit formula is a 1.9% benefit for an 18% contribution.

So @$200k the earned retirement benefit for that year is $3800 (non-indexed). @$250k the earned benefit would be $4750.

If the AVERAGE earnings for 30 years was $250k/yr then the retirement benefit would be $142,500

The benefit is subject to adjustment (downwards) if the funding status of the plan (due to investment returns) is deficient. That has never happened yet.

This is a good vehicle to be considered by non-DB employers and pilots. It is clearly more effective for high income earners and intended long term employees.

Employer paid benefit premiums is worth a lot but MUST include long term comprehensive profession specific disability coverage.

Rudder, is there a calculator or estimator for the AC pension scheme? I'm curious as to what a new hire today could garner as retirement income with only 20 years of service.

Interested in this as well

[braaap Braap]

Don’t be so sour dude. Your time will come…. Sooner than later.

I’m sorry that you feel that this FOAG upgrade isn’t exactly what you wanted. There’s more to come. Just wait.

I'm sorry if this came off excessively sour, I feel it's important to be sharing both sides of the coin rather than the rainbows and unicorns that has been flying all over this site. If you get to tell me not to be so sour, then I get to tell you to not be so naïve/hopped up on the Kool-aid. But, I am not trying to fight you on this. We need pilot unity! I have been waiting, my time is not coming, it's being continually pushed along just outside of my reach and I am tired of waiting. I am not militant about it. I am not looking to #@$% the company over. I just want actual representation that has an ability to put the pilot group on level playing ground with the C-suite.

Massive expansion plans such as something that porter is trying to attempt requires extremely high qualified talent and trainers/ACPs to join the forces. This is what they have been doing.

And that's fine. I understand that. I think there are ways to accomplish this while actually respecting seniority and I want to have a say on what that solution is, not just be told to "take it or leave it"

You said new bases are RESTRICTED to 33% but that’s not true…. 33% MINIMUM of all bids will go to existing crew until all internal bids are exhausted. So everyone currently hired will get there… eventually.

You say minimum, I say maximum. If its anything more than that I'd be surprised. The rules of supply and demand just aren't there. And with no honouring YOS between fleets why should anyone settle for "eventually". The leader that may have tried pushed to exceed the minimum just got kicked to the curb.

They made progress on grey days. It’s gonna still take some time. While that happens, enjoy the double pay on those days.

Again, I don't want more money. Many of these issues aren't even directly effecting me. I'm just tired of the apologizing and the justifying we do for them in order to shoulder the load they place on us.

The commuting policy was worse before and literally listed city pairs. At least now people can commute from cities that weren’t previously only dash-8 operations. Again, also an improvement.

Listed city pairs could have been expanded. At least the pay and attendance record were protected. The program is now basically jumpseating with better priority and maybe in the rarest of circumstances they'll throw you a bone and put you up in a hotel (good luck getting your situation to fall within the hoops).

You CAN trade, you just have to figure it out with colleagues at the moment and talk to CS. Is this the best system…..NO. But again, it’s possible.

I'd have better chances squeezing water from a rock. It's less about the inability to do it and more about the "they've been promising improvements on this since February 2022 and we're no closer" and how that track record will happen over and over again.

I’m on your side about the FOAG violations. Someone should be assigned to look into these. And from the last meeting, it sounds like that’s gonna be something going forward.

The FOAG Rep in the call basically said "Ya we don't have enough resources to do surveys or town halls, just e-mail in we promise we look at them all", meanwhile the chat is full of comments like "I haven't gotten a response." "Is the email still active?". Again, if they can't handle the current workload of e-mails, what is more e-mails going to do?

From your concerns, I assume you are on the Dash list. If I’m wrong, then I sincerely apologize. If I’m right, I expect that you are upset about the speed of movement onto the jet, or possibly bases.

You're correct that I am on the Dash, I am not qualified to transfer over and am content with where I am and recognize my spot in line. As I said, most of the issues I'm fired up about don't even directly effect me, but it's the principle of the matter and an erosion of the culture of why I came to porter and what kept me here.

The bait and switch you’re talking about was porter hiring YUL based ACPs and trainers. Which are literally required in order to process more people from the dash. In order to attract, you may have to give. Also, you’re wrong about it all going to external hires. They hired 2 people outside of the company for YUL base. The rest were internal Previously hired that commutes to YYZ from YUL.

Yes concessions may have been made and people got YUL base ahead of others who deserve it. But without this, we possibly couldn’t have made it happen.

Or we possibly could have. Who's to say, but concessions (!?) in this market environment, with these supply and demand dynamics are unacceptable especially when unilaterally decided upon. Again, I recognize the give and take needed during this period of rapid growth but we should have more of a say of what the gives and takes are.

You’re also forgetting e2 rates bypass pay for those dash pilots that get bumped back from their transition date. There’s lots of upgrades in this FOAG revision. Easy to state to what you don’t like.

with the trickle that is the transfer, I don't see many situations where the bypass pay will be applicable. Yes, there are improvements but there are also steps backward. IMO this thread was only focusing on the good and I am simply raising my voice to mention that it's not all rainbows and unicorns in Raccoonland.

Also. Just for some math. Attracting 5 and losing 3 is absolutely net pilot growth of +2. So yea it’s growing ranks. Better than jazz…. Losing 40 but hiring 16.

Yes its growth but to staff their plans they need to be getting and holding onto all 8. DEC's taking 130k paycuts to go to AC...maybe the high workload, lack of bidding, work rules are worth more than we think (I do recognize some people will not settle till they're flying the flag. It's somewhere in between). The sad state of affairs that Jazz is in is not worth comparing ourselves to. Both in terms of retention as well as in terms of what a Porter CBA would look like/do to the pilot group. Porter pilots need to realize that a union at Porter with the proper leadership would not be the nightmare that Jazz and Air Canada lived under the industry conditions that they faced when they signed their long term agreements.

Pick your poison.

Poison has been picked. Working collaboratively with the C-suite to make this expansion a success while watching out for the pilot group's best interests is what I picked. Unfortunately, I don't feel that is found within the framework of the FOAG/committee anymore. I believe it is found by joining the rest of the industry under ALPA.

[garfield]

You really think we can compete with other countries for transit passengers when AIF's are doubling every 2 years?

Carbon tax is coming, sooner or later we're gonna pay a lot more taxes on tickets..

[PRM1]

Don’t be so sour dude. Your time will come…. Sooner than later.

I’m sorry that you feel that this FOAG upgrade isn’t exactly what you wanted. There’s more to come. Just wait.

I'm sorry if this came off excessively sour, I feel it's important to be sharing both sides of the coin rather than the rainbows and unicorns that has been flying all over this site. If you get to tell me not to be so sour, then I get to tell you to not be so naïve/hopped up on the Kool-aid. But, I am not trying to fight you on this. We need pilot unity! I have been waiting, my time is not coming, it's being continually pushed along just outside of my reach and I am tired of waiting. I am not militant about it. I am not looking to #@$% the company over. I just want actual representation that has an ability to put the pilot group on level playing ground with the C-suite.

Massive expansion plans such as something that porter is trying to attempt requires extremely high qualified talent and trainers/ACPs to join the forces. This is what they have been doing.

And that's fine. I understand that. I think there are ways to accomplish this while actually respecting seniority and I want to have a say on what that solution is, not just be told to "take it or leave it"

You said new bases are RESTRICTED to 33% but that’s not true…. 33% MINIMUM of all bids will go to existing crew until all internal bids are exhausted. So everyone currently hired will get there… eventually.

You say minimum, I say maximum. If its anything more than that I'd be surprised. The rules of supply and demand just aren't there. And with no honouring YOS between fleets why should anyone settle for "eventually". The leader that may have tried pushed to exceed the minimum just got kicked to the curb.

They made progress on grey days. It’s gonna still take some time. While that happens, enjoy the double pay on those days.

Again, I don't want more money. Many of these issues aren't even directly effecting me. I'm just tired of the apologizing and the justifying we do for them in order to shoulder the load they place on us.

The commuting policy was worse before and literally listed city pairs. At least now people can commute from cities that weren’t previously only dash-8 operations. Again, also an improvement.

Listed city pairs could have been expanded. At least the pay and attendance record were protected. The program is now basically jumpseating with better priority and maybe in the rarest of circumstances they'll throw you a bone and put you up in a hotel (good luck getting your situation to fall within the hoops).

You CAN trade, you just have to figure it out with colleagues at the moment and talk to CS. Is this the best system…..NO. But again, it’s possible.

I'd have better chances squeezing water from a rock. It's less about the inability to do it and more about the "they've been promising improvements on this since February 2022 and we're no closer" and how that track record will happen over and over again.

I’m on your side about the FOAG violations. Someone should be assigned to look into these. And from the last meeting, it sounds like that’s gonna be something going forward.

The FOAG Rep in the call basically said "Ya we don't have enough resources to do surveys or town halls, just e-mail in we promise we look at them all", meanwhile the chat is full of comments like "I haven't gotten a response." "Is the email still active?". Again, if they can't handle the current workload of e-mails, what is more e-mails going to do?

From your concerns, I assume you are on the Dash list. If I’m wrong, then I sincerely apologize. If I’m right, I expect that you are upset about the speed of movement onto the jet, or possibly bases.

You're correct that I am on the Dash, I am not qualified to transfer over and am content with where I am and recognize my spot in line. As I said, most of the issues I'm fired up about don't even directly effect me, but it's the principle of the matter and an erosion of the culture of why I came to porter and what kept me here.

The bait and switch you’re talking about was porter hiring YUL based ACPs and trainers. Which are literally required in order to process more people from the dash. In order to attract, you may have to give. Also, you’re wrong about it all going to external hires. They hired 2 people outside of the company for YUL base. The rest were internal Previously hired that commutes to YYZ from YUL.

Yes concessions may have been made and people got YUL base ahead of others who deserve it. But without this, we possibly couldn’t have made it happen.

Or we possibly could have. Who's to say, but concessions (!?) in this market environment, with these supply and demand dynamics are unacceptable especially when unilaterally decided upon. Again, I recognize the give and take needed during this period of rapid growth but we should have more of a say of what the gives and takes are.

You’re also forgetting e2 rates bypass pay for those dash pilots that get bumped back from their transition date. There’s lots of upgrades in this FOAG revision. Easy to state to what you don’t like.

with the trickle that is the transfer, I don't see many situations where the bypass pay will be applicable. Yes, there are improvements but there are also steps backward. IMO this thread was only focusing on the good and I am simply raising my voice to mention that it's not all rainbows and unicorns in Raccoonland.

Also. Just for some math. Attracting 5 and losing 3 is absolutely net pilot growth of +2. So yea it’s growing ranks. Better than jazz…. Losing 40 but hiring 16.

Yes its growth but to staff their plans they need to be getting and holding onto all 8. DEC's taking 130k paycuts to go to AC...maybe the high workload, lack of bidding, work rules are worth more than we think (I do recognize some people will not settle till they're flying the flag. It's somewhere in between). The sad state of affairs that Jazz is in is not worth comparing ourselves to. Both in terms of retention as well as in terms of what a Porter CBA would look like/do to the pilot group. Porter pilots need to realize that a union at Porter with the proper leadership would not be the nightmare that Jazz and Air Canada lived under the industry conditions that they faced when they signed their long term agreements.

Pick your poison.

Poison has been picked. Working collaboratively with the C-suite to make this expansion a success while watching out for the pilot group's best interests is what I picked. Unfortunately, I don't feel that is found within the framework of the FOAG/committee anymore. I believe it is found by joining the rest of the industry under ALPA.

Your take is certainly not on the money. You are conflating comments made in the call. Your understanding of the commuting policy is weak at best. For the most part, you’re coming off as entitled and unhappy.

I’m sorry that you feel the way you do. Unfortunately the grass is t greener on the other side, but perhaps you haven’t spent enough time at an airline to realize that. ALPA is not a magic bullet, and whoever leads the union will not act in everybody’s best interest. Reality of a union is far from the ideal.

FAFO

[CaptDukeNukem]

Don’t be so sour dude. Your time will come…. Sooner than later.

I’m sorry that you feel that this FOAG upgrade isn’t exactly what you wanted. There’s more to come. Just wait.

I'm sorry if this came off excessively sour, I feel it's important to be sharing both sides of the coin rather than the rainbows and unicorns that has been flying all over this site. If you get to tell me not to be so sour, then I get to tell you to not be so naïve/hopped up on the Kool-aid. But, I am not trying to fight you on this. We need pilot unity! I have been waiting, my time is not coming, it's being continually pushed along just outside of my reach and I am tired of waiting. I am not militant about it. I am not looking to #@$% the company over. I just want actual representation that has an ability to put the pilot group on level playing ground with the C-suite.

Massive expansion plans such as something that porter is trying to attempt requires extremely high qualified talent and trainers/ACPs to join the forces. This is what they have been doing.

And that's fine. I understand that. I think there are ways to accomplish this while actually respecting seniority and I want to have a say on what that solution is, not just be told to "take it or leave it"

You said new bases are RESTRICTED to 33% but that’s not true…. 33% MINIMUM of all bids will go to existing crew until all internal bids are exhausted. So everyone currently hired will get there… eventually.

You say minimum, I say maximum. If its anything more than that I'd be surprised. The rules of supply and demand just aren't there. And with no honouring YOS between fleets why should anyone settle for "eventually". The leader that may have tried pushed to exceed the minimum just got kicked to the curb.

They made progress on grey days. It’s gonna still take some time. While that happens, enjoy the double pay on those days.

Again, I don't want more money. Many of these issues aren't even directly effecting me. I'm just tired of the apologizing and the justifying we do for them in order to shoulder the load they place on us.

The commuting policy was worse before and literally listed city pairs. At least now people can commute from cities that weren’t previously only dash-8 operations. Again, also an improvement.

Listed city pairs could have been expanded. At least the pay and attendance record were protected. The program is now basically jumpseating with better priority and maybe in the rarest of circumstances they'll throw you a bone and put you up in a hotel (good luck getting your situation to fall within the hoops).

You CAN trade, you just have to figure it out with colleagues at the moment and talk to CS. Is this the best system…..NO. But again, it’s possible.

I'd have better chances squeezing water from a rock. It's less about the inability to do it and more about the "they've been promising improvements on this since February 2022 and we're no closer" and how that track record will happen over and over again.

I’m on your side about the FOAG violations. Someone should be assigned to look into these. And from the last meeting, it sounds like that’s gonna be something going forward.

The FOAG Rep in the call basically said "Ya we don't have enough resources to do surveys or town halls, just e-mail in we promise we look at them all", meanwhile the chat is full of comments like "I haven't gotten a response." "Is the email still active?". Again, if they can't handle the current workload of e-mails, what is more e-mails going to do?

From your concerns, I assume you are on the Dash list. If I’m wrong, then I sincerely apologize. If I’m right, I expect that you are upset about the speed of movement onto the jet, or possibly bases.

You're correct that I am on the Dash, I am not qualified to transfer over and am content with where I am and recognize my spot in line. As I said, most of the issues I'm fired up about don't even directly effect me, but it's the principle of the matter and an erosion of the culture of why I came to porter and what kept me here.

The bait and switch you’re talking about was porter hiring YUL based ACPs and trainers. Which are literally required in order to process more people from the dash. In order to attract, you may have to give. Also, you’re wrong about it all going to external hires. They hired 2 people outside of the company for YUL base. The rest were internal Previously hired that commutes to YYZ from YUL.

Yes concessions may have been made and people got YUL base ahead of others who deserve it. But without this, we possibly couldn’t have made it happen.

Or we possibly could have. Who's to say, but concessions (!?) in this market environment, with these supply and demand dynamics are unacceptable especially when unilaterally decided upon. Again, I recognize the give and take needed during this period of rapid growth but we should have more of a say of what the gives and takes are.

You’re also forgetting e2 rates bypass pay for those dash pilots that get bumped back from their transition date. There’s lots of upgrades in this FOAG revision. Easy to state to what you don’t like.

with the trickle that is the transfer, I don't see many situations where the bypass pay will be applicable. Yes, there are improvements but there are also steps backward. IMO this thread was only focusing on the good and I am simply raising my voice to mention that it's not all rainbows and unicorns in Raccoonland.

Also. Just for some math. Attracting 5 and losing 3 is absolutely net pilot growth of +2. So yea it’s growing ranks. Better than jazz…. Losing 40 but hiring 16.

Yes its growth but to staff their plans they need to be getting and holding onto all 8. DEC's taking 130k paycuts to go to AC...maybe the high workload, lack of bidding, work rules are worth more than we think (I do recognize some people will not settle till they're flying the flag. It's somewhere in between). The sad state of affairs that Jazz is in is not worth comparing ourselves to. Both in terms of retention as well as in terms of what a Porter CBA would look like/do to the pilot group. Porter pilots need to realize that a union at Porter with the proper leadership would not be the nightmare that Jazz and Air Canada lived under the industry conditions that they faced when they signed their long term agreements.

Pick your poison.

Poison has been picked. Working collaboratively with the C-suite to make this expansion a success while watching out for the pilot group's best interests is what I picked. Unfortunately, I don't feel that is found within the framework of the FOAG/committee anymore. I believe it is found by joining the rest of the industry under ALPA.

Your take is certainly not on the money. You are conflating comments made in the call. Your understanding of the commuting policy is weak at best. For the most part, you’re coming off as entitled and unhappy.

I’m sorry that you feel the way you do. Unfortunately the grass is t greener on the other side, but perhaps you haven’t spent enough time at an airline to realize that. ALPA is not a magic bullet, and whoever leads the union will not act in everybody’s best interest. Reality of a union is far from the ideal.

FAFO

+1

Improvements have been made. More to come.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You really think we can compete with other countries for transit passengers when AIF's are doubling every 2 years?

Carbon tax is coming, sooner or later we're gonna pay a lot more taxes on tickets..

How is this relevant to anything in this thread? If you’re worried about AIFs, email your local member of parliament. Also, try flying out of Heathrow. See what those taxes are like.

[braaap Braap]

Your take is certainly not on the money. You are conflating comments made in the call. Your understanding of the commuting policy is weak at best. For the most part, you’re coming off as entitled and unhappy.

I’m sorry that you feel the way you do. Unfortunately the grass is t greener on the other side, but perhaps you haven’t spent enough time at an airline to realize that. ALPA is not a magic bullet, and whoever leads the union will not act in everybody’s best interest. Reality of a union is far from the ideal.

FAFO

I'm sorry if I come across entitled. I don't agree that not being satisfied with the current representation means I'm entitled. Please explain which comments from the call I'm conflating and how the commuting policy (as an example) is now anything more than jumpseating with better priority.

I recognize the grass isn't always greener on the other side. My issues with the benchmark and the FOAGs effectiveness aside, at least the other side comes with protections like Scope, Mergers, and legal representation if sh!t goes south. I never said ALPA was a magic bullet but all the other major carriers are under them and the CBA process, overall, puts employers/employees on more level terms.

...whoever leads the union will not act in everybody’s best interest.

What a gross generalization. How do you know that? And with that pessimistic logic, what, the foag reps and management currently do?! That's a good one. There might actually be some quality people here that want to work with the company (but not be pushed around by them) and make this the "premier destination for canadian pilots" where we can enjoy the structure and protections of a CBA.

FAFO - I fully intend to